Roland Payen projects and prototypes

[theponja]

Thanks a lot deltafan!!! Nice to see a Payen design in action ... but ... but I'm sad ... I need the next video with the plane flying.

Indeed! I wasn't aware about the full moving tips of the canard wing
still yet . They nearly look a bit small for sufficient efficiency as ailerons.
Were there any clues about problems ?

A very important observation here from Jemiba. We can think at least the sp.240 3d view is wrong because the small wing don't have moving tips.

 

[fightingirish]

Payen Projects in the article "Die fantastischen Visionen eines feurigen Franzosen - Monsieur Payens geflügelte Pfeile" from Ferdinand C. W. Käsmann, published in the German annual book "Flieger Kalender 2007 / 2008", pages 143 to 152.


Dear mods and dear members, please feel free to move or mention these attachments in other topics.

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks fightingirish


For my own i found today a topic about the last aerial meeting of old planes in La Ferté Alais (the greatest meeting of old planes in France. There is a little musee too). There was some photos and the 1/1 model of the Pa-100 from the Musee-Delta. It is said that the musée will be open again "soon"...

http://www.39-45.org/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=39187

Nothing very new, but i didn't know this drawing of the Pa.225 (foreseen for the, cancelled, 1939 Deutsch de la Meurthe french race).


Another article about the Pa.100 model in La Ferté Alais, with other photos. Nothing very new too, but it is said that the model stays in La Ferté Alais (maybe not for a long time, i guess, if the Musée Delta will be open again) :

http://www.pilotermag.com/Pilotermag/Le_Blog/Entrees/2014/5/15_LE_RETOUR_DU_PA100.html

 

[hesham]

Great find my dear Deltafan.

 

[Deltafan]

Hi everybody

On Sunday i was in Le Bourget Paris Airport for the annual Aviation Flea Market.

I met the Musee Delta team (the daughter of Roland Payen, Pierre Gaillard and Mr. Cremieux). They were going out. We spoke one minute.

They confirmed that the Musee will be open "soon".

I asked for the book of Mr. Gaillard about the Payen planes. A disappointed Mr. Gaillard said me that he had no news from the editor...

Well, the waiting seems to be not finished... :-\

 

[Jemiba]

At least there IS a publisher now, haste makes waste and we waited for about
14 years now, so no need for impatinece now ... :-\
I think, we can regard both news as good news !

 

[Deltafan]

I like this optimistic point of view

 

[maxmwill]

I'm just entering into the discussion with a specific request. I have a couple Payen designs, the Sauvage-Payen SP190 and the SP240. Both were flying ambulances, the 240 being the smaller of the two with a small Salmaon radial of less than a hundred hp, and was supposed to carry one patient, the 190 being larger and able to carry more patients.

Neither of these designs never went past the mockup stage(I think), but that didn't stop an enterprising model dealer to offer 1/72 scale resin models of these(Unicraft, which also has a lot of other obscure designs, including at least one that was a prank).

I've been searching the internet for information on these and have come up dry. I would like to find, even a poor quality photo, information on the cockpits of both.

 

[Jemiba]

Welcome here maxmwill !

Interesting them, all those Payen designs. That there even was a mockup of the SP 190, or
240 is new to me, I only know two photos of a wind tunnel model of the Sauvage/Payen layout.
But Roland Payen was a busy bee and as it seems actually started cutting metal, or better wood
on quite a number of projects, although in the end the number of finished aircraft remained quite
overseeable, see the photo of his workshop here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15906.msg206240.html#msg206240
But if he actually built mockups of those flying ambulances, it's probably not sure, that they would
have been detailed to the level, where you would have a clue of the cockpit interior. Such mockups
were often just representing the external shape, I think. So I'm afraid, that you are more or less
on your own. Maybe the photo partly showing she cockpit of the Pa 101 could be helpful.
(From "Fats Facts - The Speed Record Club Quarterly Magazine)

 

[maxmwill]

Well, I had contacted Igor at Unicraft, and asked him if the person who made the molds for the models left any other documentation laying around, and was informed no, and that the mold designer left for parts of France unknown.

So, I will just try to figure out how to go about the cockpits and possible the interior accommodations, the 190 carrying two crew and 6 litters, and the 240 carrying pilot, attendant and one little.

With the 190, just eyeballing it(a tried and true aircraft mechanic technique, that and the torque wrench that is built into the arm), I kind of have an idea what I might be able to do, but with the 240, the door into the fuselage is directly below the cockpit, or where the cockpit is supposed to be, so I'll just have to be a bit artful and, as the pilot told the passengers after the remaining engines fell off the wings, I'll just have to wing it from here. Still, flying machines, being mechanical contraptions, no matter how fanciful they might look, have to follow certain guidelines as far as structure is concerned, and since I have experience working on the real thing, I might be able to come up with an arrangement that, while it might not look particularly pretty, might work, as long as I look at it with eyes shut wide open, or something to that effect.

 

[Jemiba]

I've split and merged the posts about the SP.190/240 here.

...but with the 240, the door into the fuselage is directly below the cockpit, or where the cockpit is supposed to be...

Indeed, interesting question !
The SP.240 was derived from the 230, of which I found a drawing with given dimensions. The fuselage was
abouot 80 cm wide, so a kind of side-by side seating would have been impossible. IIRC in some WW II bombers,
the pilot had to enter from below by pushing back his seat. Maybe a similar arrangement would have been
used here.

 

[maxmwill]

The 240 was derived from a previous design? Do you have it, or the website address for it?

No, 80 cm is too narrow for side by side seating, but according to Unicraft, the 240 carries only a pilot and a stretcher.

But, as I have been looking at the instructions for the model, which is only a 3 view in 1/72 scale, the cockpit is right above the door for access, and from the looks of it, the top of the door is where the pilot would normally sit.

And this is a thin model, not much in the way of elbow room. I can see an access door close to the pilot, because that'd be the commonsense way to design it.

Yes, I know, this is based on either drawings or photos of the mockup(along with drawings. I asked Igor if there was any more info on this, and he replied in the negative, so I'll just have to pick at this, along with the 190(and this one makes more sense, at least as much sense as an unconventional design could make), and a couple others I ordered(including the Horten Naranjero flying wing transport, which is in and of itself presenting sets of problems all its own).

As to the 240, the engine it had was a seven cylinder Salmson, which was also the same engine(at least it appears that it was) that powered the French version of the Avro Cierva C30 Rota, and I have a kit of that in the same scale, which also happens to have a resin engine, so I'm thinking of using that, as the resin engine supplied with the 240 leaves a lot to be desired(as in it more resembles a bumpy lump).

I'm not in any way discouraged, disgusted or even thinking of permanently shelving these, just slowing down a bit to see if I can come up with some workable solutions, which does seem likely.

 

[maxmwill]

Well, as my curiosity bump is itching like crazy, I went ahead and did a google search, and found the 230, and yes, it is a very close match with the 240.

And, as I don't have a working printer attached to this machine, I'll wait until Friday to make the necessary printouts.

 

[Stargazer]

I've just realized I forgot to give an update on an attempt to obtain more information about some Payen projects.

A few months ago I contacted Francis Nicole, an author who knew Payen and well published several articles on his work in Le Fana de l'Aviation. As there had been rumors about a book he was planning to write on the subject, I wrote him and asked him what the project was up to.

Here is Mr. Nicole's answer: "I'm afraid I do not know quite as much on the subject as they claim! I got to know Roland Payen well and he invited me to his place on several occasions to elaborate my Fana articles. (...) I never really had, however, any project for a more comprehensive book on Payen, it was more like an idea thrown in the air, because it seemed like such a necessary book to me! My articles cover but a small part of his work. (...) I was never able to do an article on the "Arbalète"! Furthermore I only know those airplanes that really did fly. It seems you'd like to know more about the Payen projects that stayed "in the boxes" (and there were quite a few!) (...) You may try to contact the Athis(-Mons) association if it still exists, and Roland Payen's daughter through them..."

Francis Nicole is also the illustrator of a comic-book series called Missions "Kimono", and recently released the 15th volume of this. He does this for a living and he loves it, but he also kind of regrets that it now takes all of his time (he even does the coloring himself) and doesn't leave him with any time for anything else.

Incidentally, I happened on Mr. Nicole a couple of weeks ago on a comic-book convention but he was extremely busy signing/sketching his books — definitely not the best time to talk about Payen!


In case you want to know more about Nicole and his artwork:
http://francejohn.pagesperso-orange.fr/mk_page1.htm
http://francejohn.pagesperso-orange.fr/mk_page2.htm

 

[Jemiba]

Thanks for this update !
From what I know, the surviving material was given to Monsieur Gaillard for his exclusive
use, so it may be hard for other authors to get and use it.

 

[Deltafan]

Hi everybody !

Interesting questions. I think i can find any answers. Let me some days. Somewhere i have too some mails from M. Nicole (with the help of Jean-Yves Brouard, the writer of "Mission Kimono" Airplane-Comics with M. Nicole as artist).

 

[Deltafan]

Well,

for the cockpit, the best that I have is the same photo as Jemiba, but better :

The next time that i see the Payen 100 1/1 Model (maybe on 7th February) i will made photos of the cockpit.

 

[maxmwill]

Welp. with regard to Payen's many and varied projects, I do have some questions about a couple of his that never made it off the drawing board, or whatever he preferred.

They are the Sauvage-Payen 240 and 190 flying ambulances. The 190, I'm not having as much problem as with the smaller 240, because the way the cockpit is arranged, and even its very size, does not fit any drawings(which are all based upon sketches), and the model I have of it isn't helping any.

What I would like to know, and if you could help, that'd be greatly appreciated, is what was supposed to be the cockpit arrangement of the 240, as well as the litter and crew accommodations of the larger 190?

I realize that a bit of time has passed since Payen first put pencil to paper to begin bringing to life his inspiration of each, so I'll understand if that would not be possible.

In addition, I've also begun drafting up a set of plans for an RC scale model of the 190, but with a differnence: a contra prop. A number of months ago, I found what appeared to be a contrarotating electric motor for RC, and had thought it was bigger than what I have. Still, it is a contra prop, only it is comprised of two electric motors, one shaft running through the other motor, which is just as well.

Anyway, taking the prop diameter on the 3 view that was supplied with the kit I have, and then shooting numbers(spans, length, that sort of thing), I ended up with a model that is close to 30" long, with a 14" span. Smaller than what I'm used to, still, it feels doable.

And, thank you in advance.

 

[Deltafan]

Well...

With my poor English it's a little difficult for me to understand exactly what do you want... I hope i understood good.

-At first i wanted to find web sites (Master 194, Fighters, Whatifmodelers) with modelled SP 240. But i cannot open the most of the photos (too old ?)... :

Maybe you can open these photos on the topics :

http://fighters.forumactif.com/t34087-payen-sauvage-sp-240-unicraft-1-72?highlight=Payen
http://fighters.forumactif.com/t24303-payen-sauvage-sp-240-unicraft-1-72?highlight=Payen
http://fighters.forumactif.com/t37677-payen-sauvage-sp-240-unicraft-1-72?highlight=Payen
http://fighters.forumactif.com/t37677-payen-sauvage-sp-240-unicraft-1-72?highlight=Payen

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,27657.0/highlight,payen.html
(i saw too that on whatifmodelers you had the same questions as on Secretprojects about the 240)

The best that i know now are the photos that Skyblazer found and shared on Secret projects, but i guess that you know these photos on the page before :
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1455.30.html


-I don't understand the problem with the door and the pilot place of the 240 ? I think there is enough place for the pilot and for the stretcher too. So with 5.80 m length for the 230, there is probably enough place in the certainly larger 240.


-for the frame of the 240-190 i have only any lines of technical file about the Pa.230. But it's in french and it's too difficult for me to give a good translation of it :
"Le fuselage a la forme au maître-couple d'une ellipse allongée vers le bas, celui-ci outre son but d'aménagement sert également de dérive pour la stabilité latérale et longitudinale, sa construction peut s'exécuter avec 3, 4 ou multi-longerons, couples, cloisons, caissons, lisses transversales, longitudinales et hélicoïdales : il porte à l'arrière le gouvernail de direction dont la construction est identique à l'aile."
I'm not sure that there is a lot about the interior of the fuselage. I think it's over all about the structure. At the beginning, it's said that the fuselage is used as a vertical fin.


-The drawings of Unicraft (190 and 240) come from the 3 views drawings of an article of the french author Alain Pelletier in Air Enthusiast of March/April 1997. As far as i know there is no other drawing about these planes. Maybe it's possible to contact Alain Pelletier about it, but i'm not sure that he has the answer. Another specialist for the Payen planes is the german author Ferdinand C. W. Käsmann. But i'm not sure too that he has the answers.


-On 7th February i go to a public speech of french author Pierre Gaillard. I'll ask for his book about Payen. Maybe there is more infos about the 190-240 on it.
http://www.aerovfr.com/2015/01/roland-payen-et-laile-delta/




-concerning Francis Nicole, he wrote me any infos (from Jean-Yves Brouard) on 2010. He had a lot of unpublished photos with Mr. Payen and parts of the Pa.22 (/2 and /5) for his articles of 1992 but he did not remember where they are. He said me too that he remembered (but he is not sure) that Mr. Payen said that the colour of the Pa.101 was not white but a very light blue.
http://www.aviafrance.com/payen-pa-101-aviation-france-10039.htm

 

[maxmwill]

Well, I have both the 240 and the 190, purchased from Unicraft.

As I was delving deeper into the 240 kit, and looking at it, it seemed to be the cockpit pilot's seat is directly about the upper door sill of the entry door, and that from the bottom edge of the upper door sill, to the top of the canopy was, scaled up from the model was approximately 2 feet, or so, and the width of the fuselage at that point seemed to preclude there being some sort of side-to-side zone in order to accommodate the pilot.

I know, I am part of What if, and had asked about the 240, and it was pointed out that the 240 was developed from an earlier model, the SP. 230, which is a two seater, tandem seat, which makes sense. Still, it did seem a bit confusing.

About the SP.190, I did find something interesting that I'm still wondering about. The main landing gear on the 190 are comprised of two wheels each side, but instead of bogies, there is a pair of wheels side by side in each wheel pant. Do you know why Payen(or whoever else) designed it that way?

 

[Jemiba]

Either to reduce pressure on the ground, or to use smaller wheels while retaining
the same pressure, as before, I think.
But thanks for that clue, haven't noticed that before.

 

[Deltafan]

Either to reduce pressure on the ground, or to use smaller wheels while retaining
the same pressure, as before, I think.
But thanks for that clue, haven't noticed that before.

No better
I'll ask to M. Gaillard on 7th February.

As I was delving deeper into the 240 kit, and looking at it, it seemed to be the cockpit pilot's seat is directly about the upper door sill of the entry door, and that from the bottom edge of the upper door sill, to the top of the canopy was, scaled up from the model was approximately 2 feet, or so, and the width of the fuselage at that point seemed to preclude there being some sort of side-to-side zone in order to accommodate the pilot.

OK, I understand a little more.

-There is no knowledge of the real length and width of this plane. Maybe it is a little larger than what Unicraft made.
-There is no knowledge of the real interior of the plane. Unicraft made something that could be used. But it's only assumptions (in particular about the seat place).
-It seems that it would be better to be a little jockey than a big bodybuilder as a pilot of this plane...
-Maybe the pilot could place his feets under the stretcher location.

Today i cannot "help" better...

 

[maxmwill]

As I was delving deeper into the 240 kit, and looking at it, it seemed to be the cockpit pilot's seat is directly about the upper door sill of the entry door, and that from the bottom edge of the upper door sill, to the top of the canopy was, scaled up from the model was approximately 2 feet, or so, and the width of the fuselage at that point seemed to preclude there being some sort of side-to-side zone in order to accommodate the pilot.

OK, I understand a little more.

-There is no knowledge of the real length and width of this plane. Maybe it is a little larger than what Unicraft made.
-There is no knowledge of the real interior of the plane. Unicraft made something that could be used. But it's only assumptions (in particular about the seat place).
-It seems that it would be better to be a little jockey than a big bodybuilder as a pilot of this plane...
-Maybe the pilot could place his feets under the stretcher location.

Today i cannot "help" better...
[/quote]

That's ok, I understand completely.

In other words, with regard to the model itself, "the sky's the limit" with regard to how much liberty I can take when building it, within reason.

As far as the pilot seat location(including height), I was merely assuming something similar to what I'd be able to fit with reasonable comfort, drawing on my experience as a real live A&P mechanic.

Please keep up posted as to what your discussion with M Gaillard on 7 Feb., as it sounds like he'd be fascinating to listen to.

 

[Deltafan]

Hi everybody,

I was yesterday on the conference of the french author and Payen specialist Pierre Gaillard. http://www.aerovfr.com/2015/01/roland-payen-et-laile-delta/

I thought it last one hour, but it was three hours... The first half was about the Payen planes, the second half about the delta planes in the world.

We were about 20 people in a little room in the french musee of the playing cards in Issy les Moulineaux in the suburbs of Paris.

Then, the 1/1 model of the Pa.100 was not there...

Nothing very new about the Payen story. But among the slides there were some photos and drawings that i did not know (the most about the Pa.22/2).

There were apparently several french authors among the assembly, and a journalist with his laptop.

At the end of the conference, M. Gaillard was very busy with several people. I could not stay a long time and I did not speak with him (sorry, no question about the SP. 190 and 240). But i could speak a little time with the daughter of M. Payen and M. Cremieux of the Musee delta : the Musee delta will open "soon" thanks to the new mayor of Athis Mons (the city were the musee is). The field will be more little, but there will be the Concorde 02 (it contains the musee with the story of the Payen and other deltas) and the 2 Mirage III too (The 2 Mirage came back, but they must be reassembled now). Alas, there is not enough place now and the Pa.100 model 1/1 cannot be showed. It stays in the hangar of a friend of the people of the musee delta. It will be showed on certain show, like the last one for the yearly La Ferte Alais airshow (the biggest airshow for old planes in France, each year on May).

I asked once more again THE question about the book of M. Gaillard about the Payen planes... And once more again the same answer : no news from the editor...

M. Cremieux spoke me about a DVD concerning an old regional tv program about M. Payen. I'll try to find it.

That's all folks

 

[maxmwill]

Is there a translation available for the site?

 

[Stargazer]

Thanks a lot for this update, Deltafan.

 

[Deltafan]

Is there a translation available for the site?

For the conference or the link ?

For the conference it was spoken in french by M. Gaillard.

For the link nothing very new : it is wrote about the conference and about the story of M. Payen, the building of the Pa.100/101 on 1935 ; the Pa.100 1/1 model ; the need of high speed for delta wings, and high power for landing and take off for delta wings ; the air-brake of the vertical fin of the Pa.49 (the same as the shuttle) ; the skepticism of the french officials and the other builders ; the lack of money ; the success of the flying Pa.49 which is now in Le Bourget Air and Space museum ; the works of M. Payen to build flying replicas for TV series in the 70s ; the advent of the delta planes on the 50s and from Convair 102 and Mirage III to Rafale, with canards to improve manoeuvrability.

 

[maxmwill]

I do have a few questions about the 240 and the 190, namely how Payen wanted the cockpits and accommodations, as well as the landing gear of the 190, namely the two wheels per wheel pants

 

[Deltafan]

I do have a few questions about the 240 and the 190, namely how Payen wanted the cockpits and accommodations, as well as the landing gear of the 190, namely the two wheels per wheel pants

M. Gaillard did not speak about the 240 and 190. And, sorry, i did not ask about :

(...)
I thought it last one hour, but it was three hours...
(...)
At the end of the conference, M. Gaillard was very busy with several people. I could not stay a long time and I did not speak with him (sorry, no question about the SP. 190 and 240).
(...)

But i still live in Paris to the end of the year. Surely i can meet M. Gaillard again, maybe for the new open of the Musee Delta, or for the next flea market in Le Bourget airport

 

[maxmwill]

That's ok, Deltafan, I understand.

I realize that in the larger scheme of things, points about the 240 and the 190 might be more moot than anything else, but, even though these did not progress past the "paper plane stage", I wouldn't mind trying to see if I could render the models to be a bit more realistic, that is, how they might've appeared had they been built and utilized.

 

[Deltafan]

Well, I found an unknown link.

It's certainly from french author Pierre Gaillard and it comes obviously from his conference of 7th February 2015 in Issy les Moulineaux :

http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Exposition_Nicolas_Roland_Payen_createur_d_avions_a_aile_delta_-_par_Pierre_Gaillard.pdf

For Early Aircraft Projects, there are :

-RAP.10 (1928)
-Airëau (1928)
-RAP.40 (1931)
-SP 230 (1932)
-AP.10 V1 photos (1936)
-AP.10 V2 drawings
-Pa.100 (1934)
-Pa.101 (1935)
-Pa/P1 (1939)
-Pa.22/2 (1939)
-Pa.225 (1939)
-Pa.22/5
-Pa.42/5 (1942)

 

[lark]

Very clear Payen drawings.. better than the T.U. illustrations.
Thanks Deltafan.

 

[hesham]

Great find my dear Deltafan,


and we can put some of them here.

 

[Jemiba]

... not to forget, what to my opinion is a new entry for our list, the Pa/P1 on page 11 !

(Moved it to this section, as it is from 1939 )

 

[Deltafan]

... not to forget, what to my opinion is a new entry for our list, the Pa/P1 on page 11 !

(Moved it to this section, as it is from 1939 )

You are completely right :-[

I added what I forgot in my last post.


Thanks Hesham for the cuts of the photos


(Edit : the Pa.42/5 (1942) must be on this section too. We can see too that the drawing of the Pa/P1 is upside down on the original drawing)

 

[hesham]

Done.

 

[Stargazer]

... not to forget, what to my opinion is a new entry for our list, the Pa/P1 on page 11 !

I'm afraid you're wrong! (but who can blame you, Payen designations can really be a nightmare...)

Pa/P1 (also known as K48) was definitely there, an unbuilt 1939 cruise missile project powered by a piston engine. The illustration is a first, however, and allows us to see it belonged in the Fléchair family of designs.

 

[Jemiba]

I'm afraid you're wrong!

You're right, of course, had forgotten to look into K-list, there it is, of course, loud
and clear.
Actually missed, that the P.1 is shown upside down ! Due to the symmetrical fin and
rudder, it's not that obvious at first glance, but the Renault engine certainly had its
cylinders pointing downwards.

 

[Deltafan]

My "each six months web search" about Payen gave me an unknown photo of the Payen Pa.101 on a russian website. This photo comes from the magazine Flight from November 1934 :

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft34573.htm

 

[Avimimus]

Hello,

Does anyone know of a source with a three view of the 361, 362 or 370?

Alain J Pelletier published 3-views for the 340TP and 360 - but I'm not sure if drawings of the others survived!