Replacement of Australia's Collins Class Submarines

bobbymike said:
www.defensenews.com

US Navy’s submarine fleet is too small. Here’s how selling some may help.

The U.S. Navy’s fleet includes 49 attack submarines, despite a formal requirement for 66. It’s also facing crewing and maintenance problems.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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The author(s) of that article neglected to add another bonus for letting the RAN have 3 Virginias... Australia has begun preparing to build parts of the Virginias still to come (USN as well as RAN) - which will ease some of the current labor and manufacturing shortfalls that have contributed to the slower-than-planned/desired construction pace.
 
BlackBat242 said:
Australia has begun preparing to build parts of the Virginias still to come (USN as well as RAN)
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Do you have any details? All the statements I’ve read seem to very carefully exclude that option (which would likely run into Buy America provisions mandated by Congress).

To be more specific, they do mention preparing to be part of the British SSN-Aukus supply chain, but no mention of any US SSN supply chain.
 
OK - the US subsidary of Austal...
usa.austal.com

Austal USA receives order for three Virginia-class submarine modules

MOBILE, Ala. – Austal USA received an order for the manufacture and outfitting of three electronic deck modules for the Virginia-class submarine program. The order, valued at $10.6 million, was issued by prime contractor General Dynamics Electric Boat. Construction will begin in fall 2023 and...
usa.austal.com usa.austal.com

September 11, 2023
Austal USA receives order for three Virginia-class submarine modules

Mobile AL. - Austal USA received an order for the manufacture and outfitting of three electronic deck modules for the Virginia-class submarine program. The order, valued at $10.6 million, was issued by prime contractor General Dynamics Electric Boat. Construction will begin in fall 2023 and the modules are scheduled to be delivered to Electric Boat by the middle of 2025.

The construction of these modules is the result of the strategic partnership formed in 2022 between Austal USA and Electric Boat, supported by the U.S. Navy, to take a strategic sourcing approach to expanding the production capacity of the submarine industrial base. As part of the partnership, Austal USA is constructing and outfitting Command and Control Systems Modules (CCSM) and Electronic Deck Modules (EDM) for the Virginia- and Columbia-class programs.

“This order signifies the confidence Electric Boat and the Navy have in Austal’s talented workforce to maintain a steady production line building quality modules on time and on budget,” said Austal USA Vice President of New Construction Programs Dave Growden. “We are excited to play an important role in the submarine industrial base and about being part of a program critical to our Nation’s security.”

Austal USA has continued to expand its facilities and workforce to support the growing demand of the submarine industrial base. The order for the three modules follows an initial order for a CCSM in February 2023.
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BlackBat242 said:
OK - the US subsidary of Austal...
usa.austal.com

Austal USA receives order for three Virginia-class submarine modules

MOBILE, Ala. – Austal USA received an order for the manufacture and outfitting of three electronic deck modules for the Virginia-class submarine program. The order, valued at $10.6 million, was issued by prime contractor General Dynamics Electric Boat. Construction will begin in fall 2023 and...
usa.austal.com usa.austal.com
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What's the electronic deck module?

This sounds like the control room and then the middle level of the Virginia class... (Torpedo Room being the lower level of ops compartment)
 
Good question, I have no idea.

The point being that the AUKUS treaty is allowing Australia-based companies (through their US subsidiaries) to get contracts for SSN/SSBN work that they have not been eligible for previously, to the benefit of both the USN and the RAN.
 
www.abc.net.au

SA makes play to enter US nuclear submarine supply chain ahead of AUKUS

South Australia's naval shipbuilding sector is moving to become more heavily involved in US nuclear submarine construction, well before work begins on AUKUS vessels.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

South Australia's naval shipbuilding sector is moving to become more heavily involved in US nuclear submarine construction, well before work begins on AUKUS vessels.
The SA government said it had struck a deal with shipbuilder Huntington Ingalls Industries (HII) — which builds Virginia-class submarines — that would potentially allow SA companies to enter supply chains for American nuclear-powered naval vessels.

Premier Peter Malinauskas, who travelled to HII's shipbuilding site in the city of Newport News in Virginia for the announcement, said the move was partly intended to ensure SA defence companies had sufficient work until construction of the new SSN-AUKUS submarines began sometime next decade.

"There are already 53 suppliers that are engaged on the list with HII looking at their opportunities to not just participate in the SSN-AUKUS supply chain but even potentially the [nuclear-powered] Virginia-class supply chain," he said.
"Our partnership with HII will help facilitate that endeavour."

The shipbuilding giant said it was already in talks with the 53 South Australian suppliers.
"South Australia is uniquely positioned. Frankly, Australian industry is quite strong — it is very capable [but] it is not a capability issue as much as it is a scaling issue," head of HII's Australian business Michael Lempke said.
"We really look at AUKUS as an opportunity to enhance the industrial capability of all three partner nations, and the collaboration we're talking about today is a very important next step in that partnership."

The government said HII would assess SA companies with expertise in "design and engineering, equipment integration, advanced manufacturing, welding, [and] fabrication", and then advise them on ways to become involved in US supply chains.

Adelaide-based industry group the Defence Teaming Centre said the announcement went a long way to quell the fears of a "valley of death" — a period in which there are few manufacturing projects.
"One of the things about SSN-AUKUS is of course it's very future-focused. There are not going to be submarines rolling out of South Australia for many years to come," chief executive Libby Day said.
"Through the guidance of HII — who, in the US, are the biggest builders of the Virginia-class submarines — there will be opportunities for those South Australian companies who meet the requirements to be put forward for some areas of work on the Virginia-class submarines.
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And more Aussie material considered for Virginias... this time steel!

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Submarine agency chief: Australia’s SSNs will be bigger, better, faster | The Strategist

The nuclear-powered, conventionally armed submarines to be built under the AUKUS agreement are on track to be the world’s most advanced fighting machines, says Australian Submarine Agency Director-General Jonathan Mead. ‘They’ll have greater firepower, a ...
www.aspistrategist.org.au www.aspistrategist.org.au

Australian steel will be used to build Australia’s SSN-AUKUS submarines, subject to a comprehensive qualification process expected to be completed in the first half of 2025.

The steel is also being qualified to both the British and US standards. Having Australian industry involved will deepen and bring resilience to the three nations’ supply chains, with greater mass, confidence and scale, Mead says.

In April, major US warship builder Newport News Shipbuilding lodged an initial purchase order for processed Australian steel from Bisalloy Steel’s Port Kembla plant for testing and training.
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BlackBat242 said:
And more Aussie material considered for Virginias... this time steel!

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Submarine agency chief: Australia’s SSNs will be bigger, better, faster | The Strategist

The nuclear-powered, conventionally armed submarines to be built under the AUKUS agreement are on track to be the world’s most advanced fighting machines, says Australian Submarine Agency Director-General Jonathan Mead. ‘They’ll have greater firepower, a ...
www.aspistrategist.org.au www.aspistrategist.org.au
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With a displacement of more than 10,000 tonnes, the SSN-AUKUS class will be larger than current US Virginia-class attack submarine of just over 7000 tonnes. Australia’s six conventionally powered Collins-class submarines are each about 3300 tonnes.
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Whoa, that's going to be a beast! On the order of Seawolf-sized...
 
Josh_TN said:
I suspect a large magazine of weapons and possibly a heavy VLS armament. The USN has come to the conclusion its boats do not have enough magazine depth for the anti surface role and is looking to expand.
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Yes, I'm expecting the SSNX to be Seawolf or Columbia-class diameter (and engine room), with ~50 stows in the torpedo room and at least a pair of VPMs (if it's Columbia diameter, it could have 4x VPMs up forward without taking space in the middle of the hull, for 24x cruise missiles!).

I wasn't expecting the AUKUS to be that big, though, given the UK's fiscal limits and the RN's general disuse of VLS systems for anything but Tridents on their subs. I was expecting it to be about 8000-8500 tons surfaced, call it 1000 tonnes over an Astute.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Yes, I'm expecting the SSNX to be Seawolf or Columbia-class diameter (and engine room), with ~50 stows in the torpedo room and at least a pair of VPMs (if it's Columbia diameter, it could have 4x VPMs up forward without taking space in the middle of the hull, for 24x cruise missiles!).

I wasn't expecting the AUKUS to be that big, though, given the UK's fiscal limits and the RN's general disuse of VLS systems for anything but Tridents on their subs. I was expecting it to be about 8000-8500 tons surfaced, call it 1000 tonnes over an Astute.
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There’s been some discussion I believe on the Columbia thread that future attack boats will be additional Columbias.
 
bobbymike said:
There’s been some discussion I believe on the Columbia thread that future attack boats will be additional Columbias.
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Well the guess is that the same hull and propulsion would be used as a cost saving measure. Plus most USN studies seem to advocate for much larger weapons options, so I could see retaining a four tube multi role launcher section.
 
bobbymike said:
There’s been some discussion I believe on the Columbia thread that future attack boats will be additional Columbias.
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Combined response:
Josh_TN said:
Well the guess is that the same hull and propulsion would be used as a cost saving measure. Plus most USN studies seem to advocate for much larger weapons options, so I could see retaining a four tube multi role launcher section.
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I expect the SSNX to use the Columbia reactor and engine room.

But I absolutely doubt that they'd stick with the small torpedo room on the Columbia class for any SSNs. An SSBN doesn't need a big torpedo room, if it has to shoot at someone it's already lost. So SSBNs carry maybe a dozen weapons. Half of what a Fast Attack would carry.

I'm expecting SSNX to have more like a Seawolf-sized torpedo room (the mission spec is straight up what the Seawolves were supposed to do), so ~50 weapons in the room and 6-8 torpedo tubes.

Except I'm also expecting some of those VPMs up forward, 2 or 4 of them in the forward ballast tanks. VPMs in a ballast tank only hold 6 Tomahawks, the center is an access ladder to plug the cylinder into the submarine's systems.

I don't know if SSNX would have any VPMs amidships, but it certainly could take one or two quadpacks for more Tomahawks and/or Special Ops diver lockout chambers. Any VPM that is inside the pressure hull can hold 7 Tomahawks, because you can plug the cylinder into the sub's systems from an access port in the tube.

If SSNX has any midships big tubes, I think it'll get the SSGN classification instead of plain SSN. But I'm not sure which way that will go. Whether there will be an SSNX class that is actually an SSGN with lots of VPMs on it, or if they'll new-build some SSGNs off the Columbia class design and SSNX is a different beast altogether. The monster would be something with the big torpedo room forward and a large number of VPMs amidships, but you don't want too many of them because they make the boat really long and hard to maneuver in shallow water where your SOCOM teams will be dropped off to go to work.

For the SSGN, I think you'd need at least 3 quadpacks if there aren't any plans to make something like the ASDS. IIC Dry Deck Shelters block 3 tubes. There's a decompression chamber at the front of the DDS and IIRC that's forward of where the access is from the sub, then there's another compartment where the divers can flood down in large number that is where the access from the sub is, and finally there's the Dry Deck tube that goes back something like 20ft and then has the big 5ft tall hemispherical hatch as the "garage door". If they can only block 2 tubes, the diver's access and the tube immediately aft of that, you can relatively easily have only one more quadpack with 28x Tomahawks in the VPMs. If the DDS blocks 3 tubes, you'd need 3 quadpacks and you'd have 6 tubes and 42 Tomahawks (because the other option is 14 Tomahawks!).

But you have to remember that even though the Columbia class will only have 16 Trident tubes, it's still just as long as the Ohio class that had 24 Tridents. The turbo-electric engineroom is very long. A single quadpack is probably ~32ft long, the missile section (less than the compartment) of a Columbia is on the order of 132ft long. An SSGN with 8x VPMs amidships is going to be 500ft long!
 
Forest Green said:
www.twz.com

Australia Won’t Arm Collins Class Submarines With Tomahawks

The decision, announced today, means Australia’s undersea force won’t have a long-range strike weapon for at least a decade.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
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More reporting:

www.defenceconnect.com.au

No Tomahawks and optronics upgrades scrapped as Commonwealth approves Collins LOTE

Minister for Defence Industry Pat Conroy confirmed that the government has approved a life-of-type extension program for Australia’s six Collins Class submarines while scrapping a planned optronics upgrade and ruling out the deployment of Tomahawks on the boats.
www.defenceconnect.com.au www.defenceconnect.com.au
 
UK Babcock and US HII have formed a joint venture Australian subsidiary called H&B Defence headquartered in Canberra to work on the Australian AUKUS submarines and shipyard/port infrastructure.

www.navalnews.com

HII and Babcock launch new company H&B Defence to accelerate Australia’s nuclear-powered submarine program - Naval News

HII and Babcock have formed a new joint venture – H&B Defence – to develop critical sovereign capability for the SSN-AUKUS submarine program.
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com

HII And Babcock Launch New Company H&B Defence To Accelerate Australia’s Nuclear-Powered Submarine Program​

Defence giants HII and Babcock have formed a ground-breaking new joint venture and entity – H&B Defence – to accelerate the development of critical sovereign capability for the once-in-a-generation AUKUS conventional armed, nuclear-powered submarine program.​

Naval News Staff 18 Jun 2024

Babcock Australia press release

H&B Defence combines world-leading nuclear submarine and shipbuilding experience from Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States to support the nation’s inaugural nuclear-powered submarine program under AUKUS.
Together, HII and Babcock bring comprehensive expertise in every aspect of nuclear-powered submarine activities to support the development of Australia’s sovereign capability. H&B Defence has been established to support all steps of Australia’s optimal pathway to sovereign nuclear-powered submarines under AUKUS Pillar 1 – including workforce, nuclear infrastructure design and build, submarine defueling and decommissioning, nuclear waste and future sustainment.
The company, headquartered in Canberra, Australia, will work with government and key stakeholders from industry and academic sectors to develop a comprehensive program to promote and grow a skilled sovereign nuclear workforce in Australia.
Tim Brown AM has been appointed H&B Defence Managing Director.
Brown, of Brisbane and a 33-year veteran of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN), has extensive knowledge and experience of Australia’s submarine programme and Defence and Industry strategy. He is a mechanical engineer who primarily served as a submarine officer and commanded both a Collins class submarine and an ANZAC class frigate. As the Director General Submarines and Head of the Submarine Profession, he led the submarine capability enterprise through a period of unheralded submarine availability and high levels of workforce growth, and he played an early and instrumental role in the AUKUS security partnership. Brown brings significant insight and leadership experience to drive the transformation and uplift of Australian industry to support the operation of nuclear-powered submarines.
The company board is chaired by HII’s President of the Nuclear and Environmental Services and HII Australia business lead, Michael Lempke and also includes Babcock Australasia CEO, Andrew Cridland.

H&B Managing Director Tim Brown said:
“H&B Defence’s mission is to transform Australia’s submarine industrial landscape to position the nation to operate nuclear submarines. This joint venture will focus on equipping Australia with the requisite industrial base, supply chains, and workforce required to support and manage all aspects of the nuclear-powered submarine lifecycle.”

HII Australia Business Lead Michael Lempke said:
“H&B marks a significant step forward in an enduring partnership. HII is excited to work through H&B Defence to leverage the deep-rooted experience and advanced methodologies from Australia, the UK, and the US to support AUKUS Pillar 1. This collaboration is a fusion of resources and visions—aiming to enhance capabilities and foster innovation in submarine technologies and maritime systems to strengthen national and global security while ensuring a safe and secure future.”

Babcock Australasia CEO Andrew Cridland said:
“The formation of H&B Defence is an exciting day for Babcock Australasia as we continue to build on our existing and long-term partnership with the Australian Government in support of our nation’s defences.
“H&B Defence brings together Babcock and HII’s collective history in nuclear and the best and brightest minds to support AUKUS Pillar 1.”

About the companies:
HII is the leading designer, builder, maintainer, and sustainer of US Navy nuclear powered submarines, with over 60 submarines delivered in four decades.
Babcock currently sustains 100 per cent of the UK’s Royal Navy submarine fleet and owns and operates the UK’s only licensed facility for refitting, refuelling and defueling nuclear submarines.
The Joint Venture complements the existing partnership already established between Babcock and HII to collaborate on nuclear decommissioning, disposal, and other national security opportunities.
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I was disappointed BAE pulled their application for the Ramsden Dock Facility in Feb which would have mirrored the Central Yard Facility after a lot of local opposition (though their construction timeline always looked ambitious to meet their 2025 opening target). They have however just submitted a fresh application for clearing and levelling the oil terminal for a future medium term Ramsden Dock construction project, so I think they still intend to set up a second final assembly hall and yard facility centred on Ramsden to double their submarine production capacity.
 
MihoshiK said:
This is just the result of bad or deferred maintenance.
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It also shows that the much ballyhooed Collins availability improvements, following the Coles report ("better than international benchmarks", "world class" etc) were just a flash in the pan.

Truth is... even when the RAN thought it was doing great, it was far behind the best sub operators out there.

e.g. While the RAN was trumpeting sailing 600 days in 2018 and aiming for "nearly 700 days" in 2019, the same sized (but significantly older) attack sub fleet in France was sailing 1,000 days/year and sending 4 out of 6 subs to sea when needed. The Collins fleet has never come close to that performance.
 

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