Replacement of Australia's Collins Class Submarines

WatcherZero said:
The largest slipway in northern Australia is 3000 tons and 105 metres at Tropical Reef, Brisbane.
Sydney has a 65m floating dock capable of accommodating up to 1000 tons and a 365m graving dock capable of accommodating 110,000 tons.
Then you have the 156m 9,300 ton shiplift at Osborne (capable of being upgraded to 20,000 tons)

There was also the State Dockyard at Newcastle/Carrington which had a 15,000 ton floating dock until the 70's and a number of slips ultimately closing for good in 1987. The rest of the maintenance capacity in Australia is 100 & 200m wet docks.
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YIKES!!!!!

Yall seriously need to add a couple of 200m or so drydocks. Maybe 4 total (existing with additions), Northwest/Northeast/Southeast/Southwest. Possibly only 3, one north, one east, one west, with how the cities are spread out.
 
For those in Europe (site is geofenced) gist of article seems to be Australian company Quality Maritime Surveyors which do materials testing for Collins class submarines are speculatively opening a branch near the Newport News shipyard in Virginia in the hope of getting AUKUS work on Future Australian Virginias as well as a US HQ in Georgia (close to the Ozzie owners US home), while Newport News owner HII has begun building business and academic contacts in Australia.
 
Rolls Royce is opening two new offices in St Mellons, Cardiff, and at the Airport Business Park in Glasgow adding just over 200 staff dedicated to working on the AUKUS submarine. The Cardiff office will work on mechanical design, materials engineering, structural integrity analysis, thermal analysis and fluid dynamics. The Glasgow office will work on electrical controls, instrumentation and cyber security.

www.cityam.com

Rolls-Royce submarines arm to create 200 UK jobs to meet Royal Navy needs

Rolls-Royce has announced plans to create over 200 UK jobs in its submarine division to meet a growth in demand from the Royal Navy.
www.cityam.com www.cityam.com
 
Pillar 2? Some joint R&D projects on Hypersonics have been set up between US and Australia continuing the work that was going on before as well as drones and some US-UK AI programs have been set up as well as general co-operation on cyber and some tri-national work on undersea drones. New Zealand has received a high level governmental brief on Pillar 2 and may be joining while there is also talk Japan and Canada and outside chance of South Korea are also interested in joining AUKUS Pillar 2. Canada inquired about joining Pillar 1 for their sub replacement but was immediately shot down by the US, still doesn't want Canada possessing SSN's while also been some talk that if the security situation between China and Japan deteriorated they may be interested in joining Pillar 1.
 
As expected announcement that BAE Australia and ASC will jointly build the Australian AUKUS submarines. They also announced Australia would be making a £2.4bn payment to Rolls Royce as their contribution to reactor development and the Derby production facilities.
 
Looks like ASC will take on a role similar to Babcock in the UK; building the supporting infrastructure and then providing maintenance support for the submarines themselves after they enter service.
 
I think what hes referring to is the final design review will be completed in about a year, the design is 'mature' in that its not at a concept/feasibility or initial design review stage.
 
WatcherZero said:
I think what hes referring to is the final design review will be completed in about a year, the design is 'mature' in that its not at a concept/feasibility or initial design review stage.
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If you tell me that something is a mature design, I hear "there's more than just a couple of completed prototypes to this, there are operational units currently using parts of this design."
 
Contracts for producing the land based prototypes were awarded last year ahead of the final gate decision. What they are trying to convey is that its at a fairly mature stage of design with nearly a decade of design work already undertaken, they wernt just starting fresh with a clean sheet when they signed the AUKUS treaty.
 
WatcherZero said:
Contracts for producing the land based prototypes were awarded last year ahead of the final gate decision. What they are trying to convey is that its at a fairly mature stage of design with nearly a decade of design work already undertaken, they wernt just starting fresh with a clean sheet when they signed the AUKUS treaty.
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Right. I'm still concerned about what reactor it's going to use. The S9G as used by the Virginia class dates to roughly 1990. Good part is that the S9G uses a life-of-ship core (~33yr life), but it's not a natural-circulation design to my knowledge like the A1B of the Ford-class carriers or whatever the reactor used by the Columbia-class is designated (S1B, I think).

Natural circulation means that you don't have to have pumps running to keep the power moving. And that's a great benefit to quieting.

I'm also still not clear if the USN is buying any AUKUS class SSNs, or if we're going for the SSNX "Super Seawolf". Or if AUKUS is going to be that "Super Seawolf"
 
Scott Kenny said:
Right. I'm still concerned about what reactor it's going to use. The S9G as used by the Virginia class dates to roughly 1990. Good part is that the S9G uses a life-of-ship core (~33yr life), but it's not a natural-circulation design to my knowledge like the A1B of the Ford-class carriers or whatever the reactor used by the Columbia-class is designated (S1B, I think).

Natural circulation means that you don't have to have pumps running to keep the power moving. And that's a great benefit to quieting.

I'm also still not clear if the USN is buying any AUKUS class SSNs, or if we're going for the SSNX "Super Seawolf". Or if AUKUS is going to be that "Super Seawolf"
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I'll go over this just this once (all of the information in my response has already been explained and discussed elsewhere in either this thread or the one on AUKUS).

1. AUKUS SSNs will use either the same UK-designed PWR3 reactor as the RN's new Dreadnought-class SSBNs (to replace their current 4 Vanguard class SSBNs commissioned 1993-1999, first-of-class has started build) or a modified version of the PWR3 (to better fit its hull).

2. The PWR3 (and the PWR2 in the Vanguard and Astute classes) are pressurized water cooled designs.

3. No, the US will buy only US-designed & built submarines to replace the Virginias - and that design will NOT be the AUKUS SSN or a variant thereof (in terms of the reactor, hull, etc).

However, just as the RAN's current Collins class SSKs use the AN/BGY-1 combat data system of the USN's Virginia and upgraded Los Angeles class SSNs (suitably modified to use less electric power), AUKUS and the USN's new SSNs are planned to have many subsystems (notably the sonar & combat data system) that are either compatable or jointly designed.
 
BlackBat242 said:
2. The PWR3 (and the PWR2 in the Vanguard and Astute classes) are pressurized water cooled designs.
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This is true, but does not fully answer Scott's question. There are not a lot of details about PWR3 in the public sphere but it is reported to be related to the US S8G and S9G, and there are reports that both S9G and PWR3 do use natural circulation at some power levels (S8G definitely does).
 
TomS said:
This is true, but does not fully answer Scott's question. There are not a lot of details about PWR3 in the public sphere but it is reported to be related to the US S8G and S9G, and there are reports that both S9G and PWR3 do use natural circulation at some power levels (S8G definitely does).
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I was talking about a reactor that used natural circulation even when at full power.
 
bobbymike said:
www.naval-technology.com

Australia has first officers assigned to US Virginia-class submarine

The first Australian Navy officers to serve on US Virginia class submarines represents an achievement in for the US and Australia.
www.naval-technology.com www.naval-technology.com
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Just remembered an interesting piece of culture clash that is going to happen with the AUKUS subs/training:

In the USN, all submarine line officers are nuclear engineer trained. In the RN, the nukes are NOT in the line of command. The US equivalent would be that the nukes are Engineering Duty Officers (trained engineers that are not eligible for command).
 
Similar to the disconnect that US aircraft carrier captains come from the air wing and have little experience in ship operations whereas in the Royal Navy they come from the ship operations side. I am told the RN sub Commanders have more tactical experience and training as they don't spend as much time on the engineering courses. But for example you could serve on a Royal Navy submarine as a Writer (admin) or chef without having achieved 5 GCSE's, considered the bare minimum education for most careers.
 
WatcherZero said:
Similar to the disconnect that US aircraft carrier captains come from the air wing and have little experience in ship operations whereas in the Royal Navy they come from the ship operations side. I am told the RN sub Commanders have more tactical experience and training as they don't spend as much time on the engineering courses. But for example you could serve on a Royal Navy submarine as a Writer (admin) or chef without having achieved 5 GCSE's, considered the bare minimum education for most careers.
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Carrier captains have to go through Nuke school. They spend years and years flying, then get sent to nuke school as a Commander or full Captain. And yes, they can fail.
 
Pioneer said:
www.theguardian.com

US won’t guarantee Australia will have complete control of Aukus submarines

US Aukus commitment should not be doubted, says assistant secretary of state, while refusing to be drawn on lingering concerns about the sale of nuclear submarines
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Regards
Pioneer
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While I'm still amazed that the US has agreed to sell whole subs to Aus, I strongly suspect that there's going to be a clause in the lease/purchase agreement that says "when you're done with it, the US will scrap the subs using our Nuclear Ship Recycling Program"

And probably also some pretty hard limits on who can be accepted as a nuke engineer.
 
bobbymike said:
www.defensenews.com

US Navy’s submarine fleet is too small. Here’s how selling some may help.

The U.S. Navy’s fleet includes 49 attack submarines, despite a formal requirement for 66. It’s also facing crewing and maintenance problems.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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The author(s) of that article neglected to add another bonus for letting the RAN have 3 Virginias... Australia has begun preparing to build parts of the Virginias still to come (USN as well as RAN) - which will ease some of the current labor and manufacturing shortfalls that have contributed to the slower-than-planned/desired construction pace.
 
BlackBat242 said:
Australia has begun preparing to build parts of the Virginias still to come (USN as well as RAN)
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Do you have any details? All the statements I’ve read seem to very carefully exclude that option (which would likely run into Buy America provisions mandated by Congress).

To be more specific, they do mention preparing to be part of the British SSN-Aukus supply chain, but no mention of any US SSN supply chain.
 
OK - the US subsidary of Austal...
usa.austal.com

Austal USA receives order for three Virginia-class submarine modules

MOBILE, Ala. – Austal USA received an order for the manufacture and outfitting of three electronic deck modules for the Virginia-class submarine program. The order, valued at $10.6 million, was issued by prime contractor General Dynamics Electric Boat. Construction will begin in fall 2023 and...
usa.austal.com usa.austal.com

September 11, 2023
Austal USA receives order for three Virginia-class submarine modules

Mobile AL. - Austal USA received an order for the manufacture and outfitting of three electronic deck modules for the Virginia-class submarine program. The order, valued at $10.6 million, was issued by prime contractor General Dynamics Electric Boat. Construction will begin in fall 2023 and the modules are scheduled to be delivered to Electric Boat by the middle of 2025.

The construction of these modules is the result of the strategic partnership formed in 2022 between Austal USA and Electric Boat, supported by the U.S. Navy, to take a strategic sourcing approach to expanding the production capacity of the submarine industrial base. As part of the partnership, Austal USA is constructing and outfitting Command and Control Systems Modules (CCSM) and Electronic Deck Modules (EDM) for the Virginia- and Columbia-class programs.

“This order signifies the confidence Electric Boat and the Navy have in Austal’s talented workforce to maintain a steady production line building quality modules on time and on budget,” said Austal USA Vice President of New Construction Programs Dave Growden. “We are excited to play an important role in the submarine industrial base and about being part of a program critical to our Nation’s security.”

Austal USA has continued to expand its facilities and workforce to support the growing demand of the submarine industrial base. The order for the three modules follows an initial order for a CCSM in February 2023.
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