Postwar fighter projects from Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse)

[Pioneer]

I've attached a set of drawings of the P.16 that I did a few years ago.

I've always be puzzled by the retractable rocket pack. The 80-mm SURA rocket was carried under the wings for anti-tank use and it had a pair of 30-mm HS.825 cannon. here were plenty of hard points for rocket pods, if the 68-mm SNEB was felt necessary. So why add the weight, complexity, and drag of a retractable launcher restricted to the smaller caliber rockets? I'd have thought that the space and weight could have been used better for some combination of armor, extra fuel, and/or extra gun ammunition.

If I may iversion, I think as much as it was a nicety to have these underwing pylons for the employment of additional offensive weapons and drop tanks, the Swiss doctrine called for the quickest turn around time, with the best STOL performance.
As much as you state the 'retractable rocket launcher equates to weight, complexity, and drag', my analysis is that on take off the P.16, with its retracted rocket launcher is very clean - hence inducing far less drag than that if it had external weapons, which equates to take off performance. Also as the P.16 was prodomantly designed with the intention of CAS/tank killing, the retractable rocket launcher is strategically designed to be on the aircraft's centreline - improving its line-of-sight onto target aka minimising the spread of rockets. A spread that is far wider if the same rockets were launched from wing pylons.
I'm thinking the Swiss analogy was the same as that utilised in the specification derived many years later in the USAF 'AX' program and the stipulation that the GAU-8/A cannon had to be positioned on the aircraft's centreline, to maximise 'point and shoot' (this concept itself was derived from both Allied and German combat experience).
I also think the Swiss might have thought the P.16's survival rate was higher if it flew its assigned mission and immediately returned to its mountain HAS to be rearmed and refuelled, as opposed to being exposed whilst loitering over the battlefield who's air superiority wasn't guaranteed or more likely gained by the adversary.

Well, that's my analogy of the P.16 design.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

Does anyone have the Specification for the FFA P.16 MkII?, as everything I've been able to find only gives the Specification for the P.16 MkIII.

It's interesting that the P.16 MkII would appear to be superior in most fields to that of the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak - especially and most importantly in terms of take off and landing performance.....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

Just stumbled across this:

- "[Takeoff] run [for the] P-16 was 488 meters, and the path [Landing distance] with a brake parachute — less than 305 meters, which was quite a good performance."

- '[The] P-16 was the first aircraft in the world, which used Krueger slats, designed to increase lift.'

- 'According to the terms of reference [the P-16] had to withstand in flight, large load, and provide high structural strength while servicing the aircraft semi-skilled ground personnel. Maximum permissible overload of the airframe experienced multifunctional fighter, the FFA P-16 was 13g. Swiss arms multi-functional fighter was supposed to be quite impressive. In the nose of the aircraft was planned to place integrated into the design of the installation of four 30mm automatic guns swiss hispano-suiza hs. 825 ammunition, 125 rounds per gun.'

- 'Additional fuel tanks located on the wingtips of fighter P-16-04 be considered by designers as an integral part of the structure of a combat vehicle and its fuel injection, so they were designed non-resettable [I think this means non jettersoned?].

(Source: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/416923-swiss-prototype-ffa-p-16/)


Regards
Pioneer

 

[FFA P-16]

Hi,
I am looking for information concerning the N-20-20 "Harpoon", a follow-on version of the N-20, equiped with two Armstrong-Siddeley "Sapphire" jet engines and a delta wing.
Thanks in advance

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

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[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[elmayerle]

Be interesting to take a kit of the Learjet 23 and backdate to the SAAC-23 configuration.

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[FFA P-16]

Be interesting to take a kit of the Learjet 23 and backdate to the SAAC-23 configuration.

The Learjet 23 has a T-Tail and single nosewheel, the SAAC-23 has a cross-tail and two nosewheels (like the FFA P-16)

 

[FFA P-16]

 

[elmayerle]

Be interesting to take a kit of the Learjet 23 and backdate to the SAAC-23 configuration.

The Learjet 23 has a T-Tail and single nosewheel, the SAAC-23 has a cross-tail and two nosewheels (like the FFA P-16)

I'm aware of that and neither is that difficult a conversion of the 1/48 Learjet 23 kit. Mind you, the old IMC kit of the Lear 23 is over 50 years old.

 

[FFA P-16]

Home | Projekt N-20.3 Arbalete

Die N-20.2 “Arbalète” wurde 1951 vom Eidgenössichen Flugzeugwerk F+W in Emmen konstruiert. Es ist ein einsitziger Nurflügler angetrieben von vier Turbomeca

projekt-arbalete.ch

There is someone working on a full scale Replica who should once fly.

 

[Sundog]

FFA P-16, I just saw today, all of this info you posted a few weeks back. Thank you, that was quite a lot to share.

 

[lostcosmonauts]

Hopefully a fresh P.16 image - I was trying to look through to see if it is a duplicate but may have missed it

 

[hesham]

From Air Pictorial 1964.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

P-16 trainer
The order of 100 P-16s also included some two-seat training aircraft
intended (number unknown based on comparisons with other aircraft types and
Numbers in the Swiss Air Force between 8 and 12). The main difference to
Single-seater would have been a tandem cockpit, of which the rear cockpit (flight instructor) took up the space of the Matra rocket automatons would have taken.
The training version of the P-16 would have, in contrast The single-seater does not have any on-board cannons (2 × 30 mm). Due to the cancellation of the
Due to the order for the Swiss Air Force, the P-16 trainer version was not built.

https://luftfahrtmuseum-hannover.de/images/wehrmann/FFA%20P-16.pdf

 

[papacavy]

Do we have anything on World War 2 Swiss Projects?

 

[Apophenia]

Do we have anything on World War 2 Swiss Projects?

WW2 Era

K+W C-37
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/k-w-c-37.40664/

Hochleistungsjäger aus Emmen: Projekte F+W N-6, N-7, N-8
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ger-aus-emmen-projekte-f-w-n-6-n-7-n-8.40659/

DoFlug D-3803
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/doflug-d-3803.19968/

Dornier Do-212 Experimental Seaplane
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dornier-do-212-experimental-seaplane.8519/

Use the search function to find Swiss-related posts within the Potez and Morane-Saulnier topics

Earlier Swiss Stuff

Soldenhoff Real Aircraft and Projects
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/soldenhoff-real-aircraft-and-projects.21624/

Militär-Apparat Aircraft
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/militär-apparat-aircraft.23707/

Flugmaschine REX GmbH Airplanes
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/flugmaschine-rex-gmbh-airplanes.28077/

General

Projects in Switzerland
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/projects-in-switzerland.8232/

 

[hesham]

WW2 Era

K+W C-37
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/k-w-c-37.40664/

Hochleistungsjäger aus Emmen: Projekte F+W N-6, N-7, N-8
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hochleistungsjäger-aus-emmen-projekte-f-w-n-6-n-7-n-8.40659/

DoFlug D-3803
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/doflug-d-3803.19968/

Dornier Do-212 Experimental Seaplane
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/dornier-do-212-experimental-seaplane.8519/

Use the search function to find Swiss-related posts within the Potez and Morane-Saulnier topics

Earlier Swiss Stuff

Soldenhoff Real Aircraft and Projects
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/soldenhoff-real-aircraft-and-projects.21624/

Militär-Apparat Aircraft
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/militär-apparat-aircraft.23707/

Flugmaschine REX GmbH Airplanes
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/flugmaschine-rex-gmbh-airplanes.28077/

General

Projects in Switzerland
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/projects-in-switzerland.8232/

And,

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/soldenhoff-dream-for-large-aircraft-projects.10562/

 

[Pioneer]

Cute but surely influeced by Mirage III design of that times, at the end Swiss actually buyed Mirage IIIS for their purposes.

I would think not to unlike CAC did with their CA-31 design archipeppe.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[papacavy]

And,

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/soldenhoff-dream-for-large-aircraft-projects.10562/

Thank you!

 

[kamitsure007]

I'm looking for a photo or a diagram of the FFA P-16 cockpit.
Please help.

 

[iverson]

Here are a few.