Patriot SAM Developments

I also think some of the images posted by twitter osint accounts that are claiming to be zirkon are actually parts of a patriot missile. Here are some images I have seen from these individuals which were claimed debris of zirkon. Someone more expert than me may correct me but I think people are mistaking surface to air missile debris. I am happy to admit I am wrong if this post is incorrect.

photo_2023-05-18_09-16-04.jpg


photo_2024-03-25_15-59-58.jpg

Edit: had to clear up a sentence.
 
Well the diameter of the object in the bottom shot is certainly too wide to be a Patriot PAC-3 CRI. I mean that's a dirt track road it's on, which puts the diameter at 0.5m minimum, at least twice what it should be for a PAC-3 CRI. Other pieces actually say 3M22 on them, so that's fairly conclusive.

Top image looks more the right size for a PAC-3 piece but the wire threads are a little confusing. I would expect part of a PAC-3 to end up somewhere after an intercept.
 
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DWG said:
Remnants of a spun layer in the fuselage? I was initially thinking GRP, but there'd be some evidence of the resin matrix, so maybe something like Aramid?
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I should also note that I've not seen any twitter posts claiming that the top image is a Zircon at this point, just the bottom one.
 
The top image seems to have the solid rocket thruster array of PAC-3. The “wire” is probably carbon fiber or some other lightweight composite that forms the casing. There is a small explosive charge in PAC-3 that projects large preformed shrapnel to expand the area of impact of the missile.
 
TMA1 said:
I also think some of the images posted by twitter osint accounts that are claiming to be zirkon are actually parts of a patriot missile. Here are some images I have seen from these individuals which were claimed debris of zirkon. Someone more expert than me may correct me but I think people are mistaking surface to air missile debris. I am happy to admit I am wrong if this post is incorrect.

View attachment 723722

Edit: had to clear up a sentence.
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Nobody have claimed THIS May 2023 PAC-3 image, searchable in pair of clicks (literally) to be a Zircon. Instead of creating a hiatus you would just ask if the other one may be of PAC-2 (which is not).
 
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TMA1 said:
I also think some of the images posted by twitter osint accounts that are claiming to be zirkon are actually parts of a patriot missile. Here are some images I have seen from these individuals which were claimed debris of zirkon. Someone more expert than me may correct me but I think people are mistaking surface to air missile debris. I am happy to admit I am wrong if this post is incorrect.

View attachment 723722


View attachment 723723

Edit: had to clear up a sentence.
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Bottom image is on a dirt track wide enough to have grass growing in the middle.

That's way bigger than any Patriot missile, and is bordering on ATACMS sized.
 
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Very dubious fake news. Israeli interceptor technology came from US companies, so it makes no sense that 90% of Israel's missiles would succeed and only 25% of the US's. Can't find a single renowned source for this claim and we'd have heard about it well before now if it was true. Seems to have originated from the Tehran Times. Everyone quoting 'Israeli Army Radio' but Israeli Army Radio itself returns zero hits. Damage control by Iran and nothing more.


Where the hell was this story 7 days ago even, or even 6 days ago?
 
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The Israeli Defence Forces have confirmed plans to mothball U.S.-supplied MIM-104 Patriot air defence systems, less than a month after an unprecedented Iranian drone and missile strike saw the country and allied U.S. forces launch the largest surface to air missile barrage in history. The decision to retire a major part of the country’s air defence network in the midst of combat operations of considerable intensity, and at a time when air defences are facing unprecedented pressure, is highly unusual. This has been interpreted by a number of analysts as a significant indication of the Patriot’s performance shortcomings. Not only has the system’s combat record left much to be desired, in operations ranging from the Gulf War to the defence of Saudi airspace against Yemeni strikes, but perhaps most critically for Israel the system has consistently shown a significant propensity for friendly fire.
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militarywatchmagazine.com

Amid Unprecedented Air Defence Challenges, Israel Makes Unusual Decision to Retire Patriot Missiles: Friendly Fire Issues Cause Concern

The Israeli Defence Forces have confirmed plans to mothball U.S.-supplied MIM-104 Patriot air defence systems, less than a month after an unprecedented Iranian drone and
militarywatchmagazine.com militarywatchmagazine.com
 
TMA1 said:
Those tweets are obnoxiously inflammatory.
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It is a bit much. According to that sort of logic, air forces should all still be flying piston-engined fighters (because as late as the early 1950s, they were still scoring occasional victories against jets), stealth would be a dead end (after all an antediluvian SA-3 managed to kill one F-117 and almost take down a second in less than ideal circumstances) and the S-200 would be the best air defence system in the world (hey, it once succeeded in shooting down an F-16I packed with the latest Israeli EW tech, you know). It would also lead you to conclude that the Mirage F1 is on a par with the F-14 (not to dismiss the F1, which was a useful and rather lovely aircraft, but you get what I mean).

The attempted degree of extrapolation is ridiculous.

Forest Green said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1786367340864581729
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1786367340864581729
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That's rather disappointing, to be frank - long-lead issues notwithstanding. Airbus is building A320s faster than that (currently rate 60, rate 75 envisioned for 2026)!
 
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Forest Green said:
Very dubious fake news. Israeli interceptor technology came from US companies, so it makes no sense that 90% of Israel's missiles would succeed and only 25% of the US's. Can't find a single renowned source for this claim and we'd have heard about it well before now if it was true. Seems to have originated from the Tehran Times. Everyone quoting 'Israeli Army Radio' but Israeli Army Radio itself returns zero hits. Damage control by Iran and nothing more.


Where the hell was this story 7 days ago even, or even 6 days ago?
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The only thing I could think of is that Israel was downright braindead when it came to operating Patriot batteries during the gulf war then proceeded to bash it.

Here is the article talking about it

That would explain the US missile kill rate, but unless they change what's considered a "kill" for their own missiles I doubt that they are performing that much better.
 
Josh_TN said:
The virtualized Aegis system is what is being fitted to Flight IIIs and "DDG 2.0" upgrades, correct? ie, it is generally associated with one of the SPY-6 hardware versions?
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The Mk70 is mobile containerised launcher. Well, technically the Mk31 in the mobile containerised launcher, but the Mk70 is the payload delivery system within.

theaviationist.com

U.S. Navy Rehearses Deployment Of MRC Typhon Missile System In The Baltics

The MRC Typhon missile system comprises the SM-6 air defense missile tweaked for anti-shipping roles and Tomahawk subsonic cruise missiles for land
theaviationist.com theaviationist.com

Kota said:
The only thing I could think of is that Israel was downright braindead when it came to operating Patriot batteries during the gulf war then proceeded to bash it.

Here is the article talking about it

That would explain the US missile kill rate, but unless they change what's considered a "kill" for their own missiles I doubt that they are performing that much better.
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The bit that really gave it away as BS was the fact it was actually talking about SM-3s when I dug further. You know, those things that have been achieving near 100% against IRBMs and ICBMs in testing routinely. If it was talking about very early PAC-2s it might have been plausible, but no, they went straight to BS factor 11.
 
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Forest Green said:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803722609562902734
View: https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1803722609562902734
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It seems the paying customers are going with the South Korean alternative. It seems that the Koreans are really going to clean up from this conflict.


armyrecognition.com

UAE Signs $3.5 Billion Deal for South Korea’s M-SAM Air Defense Missile System

UAE Signs $3.5 Billion Deal for South Korea’s M-SAM Air Defense Missile System
armyrecognition.com armyrecognition.com

www.defensenews.com

Saudi Arabia signs $3.2B deal for South Korean air defense systems

The two countries also inked a memorandum of understanding to further strengthen defense cooperation.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
 
Forest Green said:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803722609562902734
View: https://x.com/ChristopherJM/status/1803722609562902734

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803797624694477176
View: https://x.com/UKikaski/status/1803797624694477176
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The US has a few thousand pac-3 and probably several thousand pac-2 missiles. why isnt US sending more missiles from its stocks and simply buying replacements later on.?

Its not like US would have to send half of their stocks and be exposed. 5-6 patriots in ukraine require maybe a thousand missiles per year. And thats if over half the russian missiles and most planes are taken care by patriots alone.

This kind of rerouting of sales is gonna leave a political mark on the countries not getting their missiles. Plus there are probably financial penalties involved.
 
totoro said:
The US has a few thousand pac-3 and probably several thousand pac-2 missiles. why isnt US sending more missiles from its stocks and simply buying replacements later on.?

Its not like US would have to send half of their stocks and be exposed. 5-6 patriots in ukraine require maybe a thousand missiles per year. And thats if over half the russian missiles and most planes are taken care by patriots alone.

This kind of rerouting of sales is gonna leave a political mark on the countries not getting their missiles. Plus there are probably financial penalties involved.
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Drawing from US stocks is ongoing, but is limited by the authority and budget granted to the president for the transfer of weapons. New production missiles are being paid for by Ukraine (though often with money coming from its allies) which is not subject to the US Congress. This also allows the drawdown funds which are available to go to other things rather than missiles.
 
totoro said:
The US has a few thousand pac-3 and probably several thousand pac-2 missiles. why isnt US sending more missiles from its stocks and simply buying replacements later on.?

Its not like US would have to send half of their stocks and be exposed. 5-6 patriots in ukraine require maybe a thousand missiles per year. And thats if over half the russian missiles and most planes are taken care by patriots alone.

This kind of rerouting of sales is gonna leave a political mark on the countries not getting their missiles. Plus there are probably financial penalties involved.
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There will likely be compensation of some kind.
 
totoro said:
The US has a few thousand pac-3 and probably several thousand pac-2 missiles. why isnt US sending more missiles from its stocks and simply buying replacements later on.?

Its not like US would have to send half of their stocks and be exposed. 5-6 patriots in ukraine require maybe a thousand missiles per year. And thats if over half the russian missiles and most planes are taken care by patriots alone.

This kind of rerouting of sales is gonna leave a political mark on the countries not getting their missiles. Plus there are probably financial penalties involved.
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Cause the Middleast is blowing up again.

At the Moment there several Patriots units in damn near every US or US Align Bases in that area of the planet doing active working keeping Iran Patsies from beening even more of an issues.

Put simply?

The US Army is seeing their stocks dropping from active use and naturally blocking their transfer for their own usage. As is they are giving Ukraine first dibs on New missiles.

Thats before throwing in the noises the Hermit kingdom over there above South Korea is making cause those units to stand up and scream for deeper piles of missiles cause they see what Ukraine going through and want to avoid that.

It just a mess all around and not enough hands to clean it up.
 
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