P-51 Mustang & F-82 Twin Mustang Proposals and Variants

[r16]

b. All except a very small amount of P-47 special tooling has been destroyed.

thanks to you and all members who have posted answers . Simply reinforces my personal views that USAF knew nothing , right from the start .

 

[ZacYates]

The latest XP-82 restoration update is online if you want to see how it's going (very, very well): http://xp-82twinmustangproject.blogspot.co.nz/2016/12/november-xp-82-twin-mustang-restoration.html

 

[RyanC]

US was not flush with cash in 1945 and wanted to turn to domestic devices to keep employment up as soon as possible.

Yasotay, the US was flush with cash in September 1945 onwards. It's just that the military services saw the endless money spigot of the war years cut off abruptly.

While looking through the Sarah Clark A-26 Invader papers, I ran across a series of memos (I didn't copy them unfortunately, so this is all from memory) between Hap Arnold and I believe ATSC over the cost of installing new oil coolers on the A-26 fleet.

Basically, the original wartime design of the oil coolers on the A-26 was a bit flawed, leading to engine fires at certain times. Hap Arnold basically said... we plan to have 1,600~ A-26s in the postwar air fleet, and at X amount of $$ per oil cooler, that adds up to Y amount of $$ in total. Tell the pilots not to hot rod the engines.

Same thing happened with the A-26s completed without an escape hatch for the gunner. Solution? Don't even bother to fix, relegate to other duties (I think) and planes overseas with the issue...stay overseas.

 

[RyanC]

Last week I ran across the following document in the P-51 folder at NARA II in P-26 Sarah Clark:

-------------------------------------

RVS:WW:ms 3-3

January 30, 1943

Production Engineering Section
Pursuit Branch

Attention: Lt. P.M. Hollowell

Serial Numbers for P-51's 452.1

1. Confirming our conversation, the following Serial Numbers were assigned:

a. Contract AC-30479, North American, Inglewood.

100 P-51A1 43-6003 through 43-6102
210 P-51A5 43-6103 through 43-6312
400 P-51B5 43-6313 through 43-6712
490 P-51D1 43-6713 through 43-7202
550 P-51D1 43-106429 through 42-106978

b. New Numbers Assigned:

150 P-51D1 43-24752 through 43-24901

c. Contract AC-33940, North American, Dallas,

400 P-51C1 42-102979 through 42-103378
600 P-51E1 42-103379 through 42-103978

d. New Numbers Assigned:

350 P-51E1 43-24902 through 43-25251

W. D. ECHERT
Colonel, Air Corps
Executive
for Statistical Control

1 cy. to Records Branch
Air Service Command

-------------------------------------

I did some checking of various online serial numbers; and the very first P-51E-1, 42-103379; was completed as a P-51C-7 and it was written off as beyond repair on 19 August 1944 (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=113543)

Likewise, the last P-51E-1 of the first set (42-103978) was completed as a P-51C (http://www.aircorpsaviation.com/Websites/aircorpsaviation/Images/Combined%20Files/60J-51.pdf).

I wish Steve was still with us. :-[

 

[blockhaj]

Im looking for info on the P-51K's and D's in China.

 

[tomi]

Mustang progression

Hello

Was there plan for P 51 Mustang follower with 20 - 30 mm cannons and contra props or 8 bladed propeller ( maybe forward swept wings, I am not sure) ?
Someting with R mentioned in the name. I am not sure is this real "what if" Project or somebodys imagination.
I remeber seeing an 1:48 plastic model or RC build picture in internet, but can`t find that picture.
Please can somebody help ?

 

[Avimimus]

Re: Mustang progression

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2397.0/all.html

The forum search function may help

 

[Motocar]

Cutaway Mustang F.T.B.Griffon mid engine, author WEAL and modified by Motocar

 

[kitnut617]

Nice, interesting you drawn in cuffed prop blades ---- my conversation I've had with David Birch who co-wrote the Rolls Royce Heritage Trust book called RR and the Mustang, said it would have been a De Havilland prop. He also told me it would have been armed with three 20mm cannon. It wouldn't have had the wing root leading edge extension either, RR used wings from issued 'surplus to requirement' Mustang Mk.1. There is actually a 1/10 scale wind tunnel model of it still in existence where I was able to check my model dimensions from. At the time though, it was a Private Venture Fighter, not a Flying Test Bed.

Like this below.

 

[sienar]

fomr; https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56c78acd0442626b2590f5ea/t/590591d02994ca1b11d96680/1493537249560/2009-2_Summer.pdf

 

[Johnbr]

 

[hesham]

Amazing find my dears Sienar and Johnbr.

 

[RAP]

Trainer version of Mustang, no further info.

 

[Aubi]

Just your standard TF-51D. Cavalier also did two-seater conversions, but those had different canopy.

 

[riggerrob]

The USAAF only bought a handful of TF-51D trainers shortly after WW2.
Cavalier added second seats to a few of the P-51Ds they overhauled during the 1960s. Cavalier canopies look almost the same as stock P-51D canopies. Cavalier conversions can be distinguished by their taller tails and wing tip fuel tanks.
All the Cavalier modifications were incorporated into the Piper Enforcer COIN prototype of the -970s. The Enforcer also got a turboprop engine and a longer, re-lofted aft fuselage, the US AF never ordered production. We wonder what political forces drove the Enforcer project????

Later civilian conversions to two seats have a horrid mosh-mash of rear seat pans. Some after-market rear seats accept stock USAAF seat-type parachutes, while others require custom-sized back type parachutes.
I have packed pilot emergency parachutes for all the different P-51 variants. Many of my customers competed at the Reno Air Races.
Air racers did a wide variety of modifications to become more competitive in Cleveland or Reno air races. They started by gutting race planes of superfluous military equipment like guns, radios, armour, etc.
Cleveland Air Racers tried a variety of ways to increase range: wet wings, etc.
Reno racers went the other way by clipping wing tips and sometimes horizontal tails as well, but some found that they needed taller vertical tails to handle increased speeds and horsepower.
At least one racing Mustang was retro-fitted with Learjet wings!
A few racers even tried to remove belly radiators to reduce drag. A few Mustangs races with evaporative cooling, but never medaled.
During the late 1940s, one smooth-bellied P-51B got wing-tip radiators that resembled ram-jets from a distance.
One or two racing Mustangs even got RR Griffon engines that are distinguishable by the counter-rotating propellers.Most racers got tiny canopies and extensive detailing to further reduce drag. Think about Bondo and micro-balloons and thousands of hours of hand sanding to hide skin joints.
These days, racing Mustangs almost look like stock P-51Ds with smaller canopies. They get much of their extra speed by boosting manifold pressures up to 50 inches!

 

[riggerrob]

The only production jet-powered Mustangs were the 33 FJ-1 Fury fighters built for the US Navy. The first batch of Furies used P-51D wings and tails to support a completely new fuselage. Later, NAAA morphed the Fury into the F-86 Sabre swept-wing jet fighter. The last batch of FJ-4 Furies shared no common parts with the first batch.

 

[robunos]

Just your standard TF-51D. Cavalier also did two-seater conversions, but those had different canopy.

Not so, I believe. Take a look at the image below. At 'A', is what appears to be a flush-type air intake, and at 'B' there's some sort of air outlet that I've never previously seen on a P/F-51.
My thought is that this version was to be powered by the same engine, or variant of, the engine used in the F-82 Twin Mustang . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[sienar]

The belly scoop is F-82ish, extending back to the LE of the horizontal.

 

[kitnut617]

It looks like a 2-seat version of the P-51H

 

[robunos]

It looks like a 2-seat version of the P-51H

Just what I was thinking . . . hadn't noticed until now, there is no kink in the inboard leading edge, so not a 'D' . . . I'd still like to know what those'extras' are on the cowling, though.

cheers,
Robin,

 

[Aubi]

The tail is more H-ish, I agree. So does the belly scoop. For me, the rest is probably fault of the artist who did the drawing. No such thing on the cowling of P-82 either.

 

[RAP]

Also only has 1 .50 cal. in the wing.

 

[Foo Fighter]

It has a fair few hardpoints, proposal for a ground attack variant?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Mustang Evolution

 

[iverson]

It looks like a 2-seat version of the P-51H

Also, note the similarity between the canopy and that of the T-28. Based on the exhaust, I'd say it had Packard-Merlin power, rather than the Allisons that powered most of the F-82s.

 

[taildragger]

I've read that the F-82's adoption of the Allison engine was driven by the unavailability of US-built Merlins rather than engineering considerations. All Merlin-specific production hardware was apparently scrapped with the end of P-51 production in compliance with the licensing agreement.

 

[iverson]

I've read that the F-82's adoption of the Allison engine was driven by the unavailability of US-built Merlins rather than engineering considerations. All Merlin-specific production hardware was apparently scrapped with the end of P-51 production in compliance with the licensing agreement.

I've read the same thing. But it nonetheless looks like a Merlin in the trainer. The Allison did not stay in production very long either. So I'd speculate that the trainer would have been planned around existing engine stocks until Korean War demand consumed the inventory.

 

[kitnut617]

The story I read it was something to do with the licensing cost Rolls Royce wanted for the Merlin production post-war that killed the Merlin powered Mustangs.

 

[hesham]

From the book, The American Fighter.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a side note:

NAA Mustang IA: Some idea.

Photo: Alfred T. Palmer. These weird wooden wheels were fitted to the early Mustangs -a British Mustang IA in this case- to move them round the ramp, North American Aviation’s Inglewood. To s…

elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com

 

[hesham]

From, Warbird Tech 5 - North American P-51 Mustang,

look for this ?.

 

[Justo Miranda]

From, Warbird Tech 5 - North American P-51 Mustang,

look for this ?.

FTB Mustang topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3440.msg27408.html#msg27408

 

[elmayerle]

Okay, there's a Mustang variant I've seen in only one picture in Debden Eagles, a pictorial history of the 4th Fighter Group. It appears to be a P-51D with the aft canopy split into two parts to allow entry to a second seat behind the pilot and it appears to have radar antennae on the wings.

Anyone have any information?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Assigned to 336FS, 4FG, 8AF USAAF. This aircraft was a specially modified P-51D Mustang. It had its fuselage fuel tanks removed, a second seat fitted in the rear for the radar operator and mounted a radar antenna on the starboard wing. This aircraft was the personal mount of Colonel Everett W. Stewart.

 

[riggerrob]

I've read that the F-82's adoption of the Allison engine was driven by the unavailability of US-built Merlins rather than engineering considerations. All Merlin-specific production hardware was apparently scrapped with the end of P-51 production in compliance with the licensing agreement.

How did the Allison engine in the P-51H compare with earlier Allisons?
How did horsepower compare with Merlins?
I am especially curious about manifold boost pressures and performance at higher altitudes.

 

[Apophenia]

I've read that the F-82's adoption of the Allison engine was driven by the unavailability of US-built Merlins ...

How did the Allison engine in the P-51H compare with earlier Allisons?
How did horsepower compare with Merlins?
I am especially curious about manifold boost pressures and performance at higher altitudes.

The P-51H wasn't powered by an Allison. The 'H had aa Packard V-1650-9 Merlin - 1,380 hp (rated), 2,280 hp (max, with 50:50 water/methanol injection) at 3,000 rpm. Manifold boost pressure was 66 inches.

The XP-51J and XP-82A had Allison V-1710-119 ('F32 and 'F32R/'F32L) engines - the first two-stage Allisons with an aftercooler. Postwar production P-82E/'Fs had Allison V-1710-143/145 ('G6R/'G6L) with a max rating of 2,250 hp at 3,200 rpm. That rating was at sea level using 115/145 octane fuel with Anti-Detonation Injection (ADI). Manifold pressure was 100 inches in high gear.

 

[elmayerle]

Assigned to 336FS, 4FG, 8AF USAAF. This aircraft was a specially modified P-51D Mustang. It had its fuselage fuel tanks removed, a second seat fitted in the rear for the radar operator and mounted a radar antenna on the starboard wing. This aircraft was the personal mount of Colonel Everett W. Stewart.

Damn, that radar looks more like a German installation than anything used by the Allies. Any information as to what radar was fitted?

 

[Arjen]

It reminds me of the radar here:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawker-single-engined-night-fighters-hurricane-typhoon.20585/#post-202243

 

[Justo Miranda]

To combat the German ‘Winter Blitz’ (June-December 1940) there was a proposal to equip the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Typhoons with a radar set specifically designed for operation in single-seat night fighters.

In 1941, the EMI engineering team developed the AI Mk.VI, one 10 Kw Airborne Interception radar, with 500 ft to 3 miles detection range and automatic range strobe, dispensing with the need for an operator.

In April 1942 the new radar was tested in combat by some Defiants Mk.II of the Nº 264 Sqn and the order for twelve Hurricane Mk.IIC (NF), fitted with AI Mk.VI radar, was placed.

The prototype (BN288) flew on June 1942, but early flight trials with the Mk.VI radar set showed an undesirable shortcoming: the night vision of the pilot would be quickly destroyed by the radar screen glare.

Air Military publication, written in September 1943, describes the difficult task of watching the 4-inch diameter cathode-ray tube and looking out in the darkness for the enemy.

The Germans partially solved the problem using anti-glare red filters in the radar screen, anti-glare red pilot goggles and ultra-violet illumination for the instrument panel of their single-seat night fighters.

In November 1942 six Hurricanes Mk.IIC (NF), fitted with wing-mounted transmitting dipoles type 69, Azimuth dipoles vertically polarised and elevation antennas type 29, were delivered to the Nº 245 Sqn and another six to the Nº 247 Sqn for operational trials.

The new fighter was found top-heavy and difficult to handle, the drag generated by the antennae and the long-range fuel tanks required to give extended patrol endurance, considerably reducing the top speed and the airplane was unable to catch the new German night intruders Junkers Ju 88 A-4.

Early 1943 all the Mk.IIC (NF) were shipped to India.

On June 1943 were delivered to the Nº 176 (NF) Squadron for the defence of Calcutta from the Ki.21, Ki.48, G4M and H6K Japanese night raiders.

The Mk.IIC (NF) remained operational until January 1944.

 

[Justo Miranda]

On March 1943 the Typhoon Mk.IB (R7881) was modified by Hawker with the installation, into the starboard wing fuel tank housing, of the AI Mk.IV radar with automatic-range auto-strobing set.

The prototype was fitted with two (fixed) 44 gallon underwing tanks, anti-dazzle exhaust stacks, Type I Mk.II (N) reflector gunsight, wing-mounted Type 69 transmitting dipoles, Azimuth dipoles vertically polarised Type 29 and elevation antennae installed in both wings.

The aircraft with a maximum weight of 11,900 lbs. was re-designated Typhoon Mk.IB (NF) and painted in Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey upper surfaces and Medium Sea Grey under surfaces.

On April 1943 the radar was evaluated at the Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE).

In November the prototype, fitted with a four-bladed Rotol airscrew and underwing identification stripes, was operational tested over London by FIU pilots, reaching 368 mph top speed.

At the end of 1943 the pressing need for faster night fighters may have had decreased with the availability of the Mosquito NF series.

It was considered that flying at night while operating radar would have an excessive workload for the pilot and the project was discontinued.