P-51 Mustang & F-82 Twin Mustang Proposals and Variants

Here is another IWM image of 44-72210 (VF-S), the radar-equipped P-51D said to be the personal mount of Col. Everett W, Stewart, CO of the 336th FS, 4th FG, 8th AF. Both photos are date June 1945.

One source says that the aircraft crashed at Kitzingen Army Airfield in Bavaria on 15 May 1946. AFAIK, only the 10th PRG operated Mustangs from Kitzingen. Perhaps to odd-ball 44-72210 became a hack for a photo-recon squadron after WW2?

But more sources say that 44-72210 was damaged on the same day at Kitzeugen. With Lt Hardy M Smith at the controls, 44-72210 suffered Cat 2 damage in a taxiing accident.

I found a 1956 newpaper mention of a Capt Hardy M. Smith who had served in the ETO before ending up at Elmendorf AFB with the 4th AACS Squadron, Mobile (a ground radio unit). But I find no 'Kitzeugen' in Germany - beyond contemporay US media reports. (Does anyone know if 'Kitzeugen' was an old, alternative spelling of Kitzingen?)
 

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More likely it's a misspeling of Kitzingen. -ingen is a pretty common name ending (It basically means Kitz's place) , Kitz-eugen looks un-German to me. Also the only mentions of it are in articles related to 44-72210, so some report about it is presumably the source of the misspelling.
 
Justo, I wanted to thank you for those posts on radar for single-engined fighters. I definitely learned something. After looking at how they cut up a P-51D, I have to wonder if a two-seat conversion of a P-51B would have made more sense.
 
A few more to add:

1616724523872.png

This is a P-51D serial 44-73099 fitted with an experimental Aerojet "Superperformance" rocket engine. The 75 gallon wing tanks contain the fuel. This is a hypergolic one consisting of 65% RFNA and 35% Aniline. The tanks are permanently mounted. The engine was rated for 1300 lbs. thrust but failed to deliver the full value in testing. The installation weighed 1090 lbs., including fuel.
Test pilot Bob Chilton flew the plane several times and achieved 513 mph at 21,000 feet, about a 100 mph improvement in speed.
On at least one occasion fumes from the fuel entered the cockpit, and the whole test program was deemed too dangerous and unnecessary for operational use.

1616724898584.png

The navalized P-51 was tried with launch and landings on the USS Shangri La in late 1944 as seen here. The results were that the pilot's view was poor during most stages of launch and landing, that the plane had just an 8 mph window of speed it had to maintain on landing, and the landing gear had too much rebound. The plane was equipped with an arresting hook and catapult hook up points.

Another I don't have a photo I can post is a P-51B serial 42-10675WW (War Weary) that was converted to an ECM plane with a Perfectos set installed. Antennas several feet long were placed mid-wing with large insulators at their base, along with two similar antenna on the fuselage. The plane was with the 353th FG, 350th FS.
 
There were also three "lightweight" variants of the P-51, the F, G, and J. These differed in what engine was used but were otherwise similar. They had a new wing profile and smaller wheels on the landing gear. These features went into the production P-51H. They were also built to a different loading standard and had just 4 x .50 machineguns. A new low drag bubble canopy was installed (another P-51H feature).
The engines used were:
F Packard Merlin V-1650
G Merlin RM14SM
J Allison V-1710-119 (the first model with good high altitude performance but horribly unreliable in 1944-45)

Weight was shaved by about 1600 lbs. off the D model and the F proved capable of about 490 mph.

Just a few of these were made. A few F models were given to the British as the Mustang V.
 
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Justo Miranda said:
Two seats
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was done this way with a second seat and malcom hood. It received Perfectos ESM as well

106751 352nd FG, 487th FS; code HO-U Kay. 352nd FG, 487th FS; code HO-B. Barne Stormer
352nd FG, 487th FS; code HO-B Williams Villian. Misspelt Villain & never subsequently corrected on replacement P-51D
353rd FG, 350th FS; code LH-L. war weary Squadron Hack. Converted to 2 seater for use by 353rd FG
 
Justo Miranda said:
Two seats
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By 2000, the majority of civilian-owned Mustangs were converted to two-seaters.
A few were fully converted to the post-war USAAF TF-51 standard (see Stallion 51 based at Kissimee, Florida) but many more got little more than s jump seat in the back, crammed under a stock P-51D bubble canopy. Rear seat dimensions varied widely. Some accepted the same Butler seat-pack parachute as the front seat, while others were so cramped that they needed custom back packs.
 
From Air Classics 2022/5.
 

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RAP said:
Photo found in a local bookstore. No other info on it.
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Faintly visible in lower right is "Reynold Brown." According to Wiki:

During World War II he worked as a technical artist at North American Aviation.

And from https://reynoldbrown.com/bio/

During World War II Brown worked as a technical artist at North American Aviation where he devised the first “cut-away” illustrations of WWII fighter planes. There he met his wife, fellow artist Mary Louise Tejeda who encouraged him to go to New York to start a free-lance career following the war.

He's better known for his work painting post-war movie poster art, but it seems that this single-seat P-51 Zwilling is probably legit. Man had skills:
The drawing below doesn't show a P-51 derivative, but was posted to support the last statement about Reynold Brown

P-38J-Cut-away-view.jpg
 
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Someone who missed it was a reply to RAP's post and thought you were claiming the P-38 cutaway was a P-51 Zwilling.

They even reported it twice as I rejected the initial report - so a different moderator (Jemiba) edited the original post to clarify.
 
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overscan (PaulMM) said:
Someone who missed it was a reply to RAP's post and thought you were claiming the P-38 cutaway was a P-51 Zwilling.

They even reported it twice as I rejected the initial report - so a different moderator (Jemiba) edited the original post to clarify.
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Weird. Non-English speaker? Or "a usual suspect?"

Maybe I should've used Brown's poster for "Attack of the 50-Foot Woman" instead.
 

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Orionblamblam said:
RAP said:
Photo found in a local bookstore. No other info on it.
Click to expand...
Faintly visible in lower right is "Reynold Brown." According to Wiki:

During World War II he worked as a technical artist at North American Aviation.

And from https://reynoldbrown.com/bio/

During World War II Brown worked as a technical artist at North American Aviation where he devised the first “cut-away” illustrations of WWII fighter planes. There he met his wife, fellow artist Mary Louise Tejeda who encouraged him to go to New York to start a free-lance career following the war.

He's better known for his work painting post-war movie poster art, but it seems that this single-seat P-51 Zwilling is probably legit. Man had skills:
The drawing below doesn't show a P-51 derivative, but was posted to support the last statement about Reynold Brown

P-38J-Cut-away-view.jpg
Click to expand...

On New Year's Day, 1944, a Saturday, the design proposal brochure was completed by Paul Anderson of the specification group, and his aide, Frank Compton, with art by Reynold Brown.
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From Mustang Designer, Ray Wagner. Reynold Brown did the F-82 proposal art.
 
Just an idle thunk, is it possible that this aircraft influenced the late (Leightweight?) P-51's with their deeper fuselage?
 
The lightweight Mustang program started in late 1942. Ed Schmued did design a twin fuselage aircraft before joining North American, but other than the basic concept, had little to nothing else to do with the Twin Mustang. The F-82 was designed during 1943 alongside the XP-51F/G lightweight Mustangs, which those evolved into the P-51H, which is closer in overall design to the F-82.

If anything, it was the lightweight P-51s that influenced both the P-51H and the F-82, since both cribbed a lot of the aero advancements from them, such as the radiator ducting and redesigned engine cowling in terms of both aero and structural design. However, aside from power units for the Merlin powered F-82s and the P-51H, the F-82 and the P-51H only shared a handful of parts, and the F-82 had even less in common with the P-51D.

Even the P-51H ended up having relatively few parts that were interchangeable with the XP-51F/G due to increased fuel, increased armament and restressing to maintain a 7.33g loading at an approx 9500 lb combat weight.
 
Hello all...
Looking for some data on this image that was recently posted on a social media site, the OP stated that this P-51 was in Japan (post war) and that someone wanted to fit the propeller of the Kyushu J7W Shinden on to the P-51. Supposedly resulting in a failed powerplant. Has anyone here seen this, or know the back story to the aircraft/propeller in the image?
 

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kirksunley said:
Hello all...
Looking for some data on this image that was recently posted on a social media site, the OP stated that this P-51 was in Japan (post war) and that someone wanted to fit the propeller of the Kyushu J7W Shinden on to the P-51. Supposedly resulting in a failed powerplant. Has anyone here seen this, or know the back story to the aircraft/propeller in the image?
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That would take quite a bit of work, flipping the prop blades around to work in a tractor configuration AND installing thrust bearings in the counterprop gearbox that worked for tractor operation...
 
Anyone have any P-51 or P-82 mock up or wind tunnel model photos? I'm especially interested in any XP-51F/G, P-51H or XP-82/P-82B mock up or wind tunnel images.
 
RyanC said:
The AAF during the development of the P-51H just could not make up it's mind over armament:

4 x .50 cal
6 x .50 cal
4 x .60 cal
4 x 20mm

They tried pushing a 4 x 20mm armed pair of wings onto NAA, to which NAA replied "sorry, we're too busy with detail engineering on the P-51H and P-82 project to do a change order for 20mm in the P-51H."
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Sorry for posting this so late, but the NAA-117 mock up (pre-production P-51H) did feature an armament of 4x20mm Hispano cannons. There's some speculation that this may've been driven by the British, who wanted a cannon armed Mustang for interception/escort fighter use. Any creedance to that, or was the USAAF indeed pursuing a cannon armed P-51?
 

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