Northrop pre-ATF and ATF studies

[airrocket]

I agree 3D model would be great to see....go for it!!!! I plan to do a large scale composite Rc then see if I can coax a 4" dia ATR out of CFDRC to stuff up in it........ Good Hi-Res drawing would be great.

 

[flateric]

I need a clue as to what the heck it is?????

you need this then http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=144

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

In my opinion, its almost exactly an attempt to turn the B-2 shape into a fighter shape.

 

[fightingirish]

Yes, Aerospace Projects Review issue V3N2 by Scott Lowther (aka OBB) is awesome.
I got a printed and digital edition as an early Christmas present last year.

 

[airrocket]

My V3N2 is on its way.....thanks for the help!!!!

 

[Kryptid]

I was trying to make a larger 3-view of this design, but those inlets confused me. I'm not quite sure where they begin. Is that curve near the canard control surface the inlet lip?

 

[Bazinga]

I have the fortune to have started behind a drawing board.
If you look at the side view of the plane and start at the Pitot tube you see a scale starting at 0 and progression in major steps of a 100. I presume they are inches
Now at each exact location he draws a centerline up and draws the cross section of the plane at that very point. Others that are too crowded to draw there, he moved to the upper left corner and gave it the corresponding position.

I think your cross sections are at 270, 341 and 391

The confusion starts at station 270. You would expect some some of intake imho whereas he has 'forgotten' the opening or it is that thin that it did need any 'meat' in the diagram and the contours are the intake. This definitely looks like a B-2 style intake. Have we ever seen that work for a fighter with high AoA?

 

[Sundog]

The "tunnel" of the inlet isn't started at 270. The inlet lip is the sort of number 7 shaped line you see at station 300. It's a fairly conventional looking inlet, except it looks like it sucks off the boundary layer in those "swept" rectangular bars ahead of the inlet. I don't know if those are slots or if they are areas to place porous materials through which to suck off the boundary layer. However, I can see where you would think it's like the B-2s' in that the lip is swept for stealth alignment.

 

[Kryptid]

Might this be roughly accurate?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This is a bit bigger version of the drawing, edited for clarity. If you don't have it, I suggest you buy a copy of eAPR V3N2.

 

[Kryptid]

Thanks much, PaulMM!

67 feet long at 40,000 pounds? Seems they were a bit optimistic.

 

[Sundog]

I was looking at the Northrop Design Genealogy chart again, in order to try to determine the size of the ATF design Concept based off of the scaled ATF design.

But looking at the one chart that shows the "Baseline Stealth Design" removed from the graphic, I was wondering if that is the DP-21 "Christmas Fighter," that was in Scott's Aerospace Projects Journal and can be referenced HERE. The date on the drawing is 1983, which would put it in the same design time line as the rest of the designs shown. Anyway, I just thought I would throw that out there to see what anyone else thinks.

 

[elmayerle]

Ive seen that blended conformal cruise missile before. It was in Ricahrdson's book STEALTH, in the cruise missiles section.

In computer graphics of the time, it was also on the cover of one of the AIAA's magazines. If memory serves me correctly, and it's been some 17 years since I worked for Northrop, that's the ND-1 dispenser system.

 

[quellish]

There were all sorts of ideas floating around in those days for LO-compatible conformal weapons such as Have Slick (AGM) and Have Dash (AAM) as well as compressed-carriage internal weapons like the thing in BillRo's drawings (that looks a lot like an R-77).

All were trashcanned by AF and AF Systems Command leadership who dictated standard weapons, including MK series - designed for low-drag external carriage but non-optimal internally (better off with a cylinder). The concession was to snip a few inches off the AIM-120 fins and tails.

There are some good reasons for moving away from the conformal carriage idea. For example, imagine hanging that conformal cruise missile above (the Northrop dispenser) on, say, an F-117 on wing hardpoints. The missile itself may be stealthy, the aircraft may be stealthy, but the combination isn't necessarily stealthy - and in most cases wouldn't be. For optimal stealth the munition would have to be somewhat optimized for the aircraft carrying it (as I recall, Northrop did patent a possible solution for this). So the idea of conformal stealthy weapons does not have all the advantages some people have historically ascribed to it. Internal bays and external pods like on the international hornet address some of these problems.

 

[Jemiba]

Some CGI can be found here https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-xmas-tree-fighter-cgi-artwork.22177/

 

[BillRo]

The guys called this design "Christmas Tree". It was originally done by Tom D., but Darold Cummings' (Config Manager) name is on the drawing.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Not sure but possibly belongs here?

Aviation Week — March 12 1984

Explore the full March 12 1984 issue of Aviation Week. Browse featured articles, preview selected issue contents, and more.

archive.aviationweek.com

 

[hesham]

Another pic from the same paper reminds TTLA concept http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,185.msg1924.html#msg1924

Maybe related to this concept ?,also designed by Northrop.

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19841119/24/2

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The early YF-23 evolution becomes more known with the publication of Flying Wings and Radical Things by Tony Chong.

On page 234 is a picture of flat plate models of the 3 early designs, and drawings of one, the Agile Maneuverable Fighter. This seems to be a mix of the "Baseline Aero" design and the eventual YF-23 - its like a YF-23 might look if stealth wasn't that important. The second, High Stealth Fighter, is shown in flat plate only but is clearly the close ancestor of the YF-23, while the third shape, the Ultra Stealth Fighter, is descended from the Christmas Fighter drawing already published in this topic. Its a 4 lobe design.

Interesting that the YF-23 came from the High Stealth Fighter not the Ultra Stealth Fighter, but the aerodynamics on the Ultra Stealth Fighter look challenging.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So, here are, I believe, the three RFI designs from Northrop.

Scans by BillRo.

Identified as

N-355 Agile Plus - ATFMA Study

N-356 Cooperative Numbers Fighter - ATFMA Study

N-357 Low Signature Missileer (LSM) - ATFMA Study

Thanks to Tony Chong - Flying Wings and Radical Things (Speciality Press 2016)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Can't place this design. Thoughts? ATS? Scan by BillRo.

This is identified by Tony Chong in Flying Wings and Radical Things as the Air-To-Ground optimised design from the Compact Efficient Fighter study.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Last one. Also can't id this one yet. Scan by BillRo.

This is identified by Tony Chong in Flying Wings and Radical Things as the Air-To-Air design from the Compact Efficient Fighter study.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Northrop pre-ATF and ATF studies.
Scren captures are from 'YF-23 Black Widow II Declassified' documentary (c) West Coast Images

Revisiting first ever post in topic. This is identified by Tony Chong in Flying Wings and Radical Things as N-343-1 Low Observable Advanced Fighter and a very similar (scaled down) configuration featured as the third Compact Efficient Fighter study, the Multirole optimised design.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

From http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22035.0.html

Allyson Vought's Northrop model collection is now identifiable a little better.

Top picture:

Left: Northrop N336 (HATOL RALS configuration)
Middle: Northrop N353 / P900 Mission Adaptive Fighter
Right: Unknown still!

Bottom picture:
Left: The unknown model again
Top: N/D-102
Bottom: N364 Advanced Supersonic Cruise Fighter (related to N360, P1000, "baseline aero" ATF)
Right: Dang! I thought I'd seen it but nope, still seems unknown.

 

[hesham]

Good notes my dear paul,

and anther unknown to me.

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-p-530-p-600-p-610-yf-17-design-evolution.448/post-457397

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-p-530-p-600-p-610-yf-17-design-evolution.448/post-457398

1988 Advanced Low Cost Fighter study (N386-21 design).

 

[Colonial-Marine]

A twin barrel .50 caliber tround gun? That is a very unusual gun armament. Maybe there only for air-policing duties? Though why not just use the .50 BMG cartridge instead of a fancy tround design?

 

[archipeppe]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-p-530-p-600-p-610-yf-17-design-evolution.448/post-457397

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/northrop-p-530-p-600-p-610-yf-17-design-evolution.448/post-457398

1988 Advanced Low Cost Fighter study (N386-21 design).

It is my impression or this one did it look like the Taiwanese Ching Kuo?

 

[UpForce]

...

It is my impression or this one did it look like the Taiwanese Ching Kuo?

Very much my first thought as well.

 

[Grey Havoc]

A twin barrel .50 caliber tround gun? That is a very unusual gun armament. Maybe there only for air-policing duties? Though why not just use the .50 BMG cartridge instead of a fancy tround design?

In theory at least you would be able to carry a larger ammo load, which would be especially useful in the Air-to-Ground mode strafing the expected Red Hordes.

...

It is my impression or this one did it look like the Taiwanese Ching Kuo?

Very much my first thought as well.

Likely coincidental, since General Dynamics was the primary US contractor on that particular program. On the other hand though, Northorp would have had access to a lot of the reports and test results coming out of that program.

 

[elmayerle]

Yes Haig was chief and the other guys were Mech Design and Mech Design Manager. One Christmas I needed a date for the group party so I invited Haig's Secretary - we are still married!

We were very aware that future fighters would need internal weopons bays and almost all have bays of one kind or another. Here are some ideas from the Versatile Fighter study proposal.

Blended conformal weapon looks like the ND-1 munitions dispenser that Northrop-Ventura developed. A couple of the other weapons look to have portions of TSSAM (AGM-137A).

 

[KHambsch]

A model of a stealth fighter aircraft on display in the Las Vegas Convention Center during the Air Force Association's "Gathering of Eagles," a convention commemorating spectacular achievements in the free world's aerospace development.
Location: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA (NV) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (USA)
Camera Operator: SSGT. SIMONS Date Shot: 27 Apr 1986
via http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil

Quite nice!!!

 

[KHambsch]

A model of a stealth fighter aircraft on display in the Las Vegas Convention Center during the Air Force Association's "Gathering of Eagles," a convention commemorating spectacular achievements in the free world's aerospace development.
Location: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA (NV) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (USA)
Camera Operator: SSGT. SIMONS Date Shot: 27 Apr 1986
via http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil

Quite nice!!!

Hmm, Can't open that now....won't load. : ( K

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The link was just a link to the DOD media site as was long ago, the current site being

DIMOC Home

Which doesn't seem to be very functional.

Flateric captured the picture and the metadata, so you aren't missing anything.

 

[KHambsch]

The link was just a link to the DOD media site as was long ago, the current site being

DIMOC Home

Which doesn't seem to be very functional.

Flateric captured the picture and the metadata, so you aren't missing anything.

Thank you! Kevin

 

[_Del_]

A twin barrel .50 caliber tround gun? That is a very unusual gun armament. Maybe there only for air-policing duties? Though why not just use the .50 BMG cartridge instead of a fancy tround design?

In theory at least you would be able to carry a larger ammo load, which would be especially useful in the Air-to-Ground mode strafing the expected Red Hordes.

And in theory a higher rate of fire with an open-chamber system. No linkages which means less weight. Don't have to worry about links stretching and causing misfeeds. There are a lot of advantages "in theory".

 

[RAP]

Going through a box of old photos and came across this picture from a billboard in L.A. from 1988. Mods feel free to remove/relocate if this is not the place.

 

[Scott Kenny]

A twin barrel .50 caliber tround gun? That is a very unusual gun armament. Maybe there only for air-policing duties? Though why not just use the .50 BMG cartridge instead of a fancy tround design?

Combined response:

In theory at least you would be able to carry a larger ammo load, which would be especially useful in the Air-to-Ground mode strafing the expected Red Hordes.

Combined response 2:

And in theory a higher rate of fire with an open-chamber system. No linkages which means less weight. Don't have to worry about links stretching and causing misfeeds. There are a lot of advantages "in theory".

You can see an example with the Dardick "revolver", though it's kinda poor as a pistol. The height over bore is a killer as a pistol but doesn't matter as a rifle or vehicle machine gun. The cast aluminum frame didn't help much either. Today we'd probably make the frame from polymer instead of die cast metal.

The design works quite well as a rifle-caliber or larger machine gun or automatic cannon.

• It's a simpler mechanism with much fewer parts than a typical revolver MG/cannon in the MG151 style. The trounds don't require links and delinking, they simply roll into the right position as the revolver section opens up. No fancy feeder mechanism to push rounds into the revolver, not even feed lips like a regular firearm.
• If you make the ammunition all polymer instead of including a metal liner the ammunition is very light. It also doesn't need to be made from strategic materials that way. IIRC Anvil Gunsmithing made some new trounds from Delrin and lined them with .357mag cartridges, so they're heavier than the originals. That said, that was from an abundance of caution and a lack of the original plastic.
• There's no need for links to feed the ammunition, though that does require interesting springs as a magazine. I think that constant-force springs would be needed, which are unusual but not difficult to make.

I'm just going to note that 300rds total in a twin barrel mount is roughly 2 seconds of firing at 1500rpm per barrel, I'd want a lot more than that for ground strafing!

 

[alostbaron]

Identified as

N-355 Agile Plus - ATFMA Study

N-356 Cooperative Numbers Fighter - ATFMA Study

N-357 Low Signature Missileer (LSM) - ATFMA Study

Thanks to Tony Chong - Flying Wings and Radical Things (Speciality Press 2016)

Are there any 3-views of the N-357? I absolutely love it! Small form factor, stealthy, interesting design and with a name like Missileer! Wow!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Are there any 3-views of the N-357? I absolutely love it! Small form factor, stealthy, interesting design and with a name like Missileer! Wow!

There's a top view only in Tony Chong's - Flying Wings and Radical Things P223