Northrop pre-ATF and ATF studies

[Stargazer]

Awesome! Love these delta variants of the F-17, F-20 and P700.

 

[Sundog]

Some of those images are in that big ATF configuration choice chart by the USAF showing the various studies by different manufacturers in terms of weight class.

BTW, do you know if the P700 Derivative is pre or post ND-102? It looks like the bump in the lower part of the forward fuselage is smaller/more blended on this variant. It almost looks like a late stepping stone from the YF-17 to the ND-102? or is it the ND-102? Since we've never seen a great drawing of the ND-102, this may be the best find yet.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Great stuff, very interesting proposal.


I've added it to an existing topic of speculation about the Survivable Supersonic Fighter Demonstrator, this topic can join the Northrop ATF and Pre-ATF topic later.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I've scaled the "P700 Derivative" picture and it appears near 100% identical to the ND-102 drawing from Dornier Post (only the Sidewinder launchers and minor nose differences)


Its unfortunately hard to make out the details on some of the drawings due to low resolution.


Presumably the purpose of the program and the derivative designs was to make a cheap demonstrator - but demonstrating what? Stealth - not really likely - Supercruise - not without new engines presumably. Internal weapons carriage maybe?

 

[Sundog]

Presumably the purpose of the program and the derivative designs was to make a cheap demonstrator - but demonstrating what? Stealth - not really likely - Supercruise - not without new engines presumably. Internal weapons carriage maybe?

The drawing with all of the configurations on it refers to the design most prevalent as the "Base Aero" configuration, so my guess is the demonstrator would have been to verify the aerodynamics.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hopefully BillRo can comment but it looks like a fairly ordinary delta wing shape, not sure what need was identified exactly for an aerodynamic demonstrator?


Obviously, the separate classified volume with the stealthy configuration in would be interesting.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Regarding the P-700 drawing - here is the ND-102 drawing from Dornier Post, 1985 cleaned up a little for comparison.

 

[flateric]

these are 300 dpi scans of Northrop ATF Configuration Genealogy


courtesy BillRo

 

[flateric]

Dave Brown's 'white world' team trapezoidal design dated May '82, known via famous public artist's impression of Northrop ATF

one of the things many of us dreamed to see for ages!

courtesy BillRo

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Northrop NAD Advanced Development for ATF - roadmap


courtesy BillRo

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Northrop ATF - stitched back together & sharpened - from BillRo scans.

 

[BillRo]

It cannot be a coincidence that the ND-102 and the P-700 are to all intents and purposes identical. I would suggest that the ND-102 design was designated P-700 for the proposal. It could not be called ND-102 because that was a collaboration between Walt Fellers and Dornier. I bet they picked P-700 because it was the next # after P-600 which was a design.
The reason you don't see good drawings of the ND-102 are because it was done in pencil on the board. Walt was an old time Chief Designer and did not believe in computers; he wanted to tweak on the lines the old way. He had two guys working with him Don S. and Jerry A. and they were independent of anything else going on. I think there was a formal proposal to Dornier and that would have had accurate drawings made from photographic copies of the paper drawings but I do not have a copy. I think I have a structural arrangement of the P-700 however which might just be the ND-102.

 

[Sundog]

Thanks for the info Bill that really clears things up. Also, thanks for the images.

In the image of the design studies and the Northrop design process, is the cockpit mockup/model on the bottom left panels the cockpit from Bud Nelsons LWF? Or is that a more generic design?

 

[BillRo]

I think it was probably both. There were studies going on to determine if a more reclined seat back angles would increase "G" tolerance. Bud's little fighter had an almost recumbant pilot and drawings were available so that was mocked up as an extreme case. I don't know if it went beyond mock-up and paper studies, but one would think some work in a centifuge would be necessary to confirm an effect. Pilot ejection was always a concern and modern fighters do not have radically tilted seat backs, so it probably was an idea that died.

BillRo

 

[Sundog]

Yes, if I remember correctly the YF-22 was originally equipped with the "tilting/reclining" seat when pulling G's and went back more to an upright position when flying. Fortunately it was an idea that went into the dustbin of history. My understanding is also that the reclining position is great for pulling G's but not so great on long flights.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So, here are, I believe, the three RFI designs from Northrop.

Scans by BillRo.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This design is similar to Agile but not identical. Intakes different, and wing mounted higher on the body. Maybe an ATS study? Scan by BillRo.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Can't place this design. Thoughts? ATS? Scan by BillRo.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Last one. Also can't id this one yet. Scan by BillRo.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Moved some P-700 stuff to ND-102 topic here

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Here is the ATF Roadmap from BillRo.


I recently read about the ATF program that prior to a certain point, the intention was not to make complete prototypes but only to demonstrate specific critical technologies. This explains the purpose of the Survivable Supersonic Fighter Demonstrator and why it could have been based on an F-18, etc.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Compact Efficient Fighter internal weapons carriage (partly shown above on roadmap)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

This patent image filed in 1985 appears to be rather close to the Northrop "Baseline Aero" ATF design:

It is credited to Janusz Stalony-Dobrzanski, Everest E. Riccioni, Robert V. Dunkason.

 

[BillRo]

Col Everest Ricconi ex-USAF was a Northrop consultant and a member of the Light Weight Fighter "Mafia" pushing for more smaller fighters than the F-4 F-15. Bob Dunkason was one of our configurators.

 

[sferrin]

Compact Efficient Fighter internal weapons carriage (partly shown above on roadmap)

Makes me think of the F-102's loadout. Six Falcons internally and 2.75" rockets in the weapons bay doors.

 

[famvburg]

The Northrop Baseline Aero ATF looks like an updated, delta wing NA Vigilante.

 

[BillRo]

And last but not least and frankly a bit odd the P1000

 

[BillRo]

Someone recently uneatrthed a patent by Haig Asdurian, Dave McNally, Bob Dunkason, Moe Star et al that should be related, but I can't find the thread. Anyone remember it?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Not sure which patent in particular you mean.


Northrop Agile Design Patent

http://www.google.com/patents?id=WQI8AAAAEBAJ

Northrop "Aero ATF" Patent

http://www.google.com/patents?id=JFY8AAAAEBAJ

 

[BillRo]

The Agile patent was the one I was thinking of. Someone asked who the patentees were and the answer is the white world advanced design group. In order Chief Engineer, Config Manager, Propulsion, Aero, Configurator.

 

[flateric]

Bill - here's another patent for internal bay launcher with Asdurian as one of inventors...does it have any connection to 'Agile' or other ADG projects?

http://www.google.com/patents?id=bBA8AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false

anyway, thank you!

 

[BillRo]

Yes Haig was chief and the other guys were Mech Design and Mech Design Manager. One Christmas I needed a date for the group party so I invited Haig's Secretary - we are still married!

We were very aware that future fighters would need internal weopons bays and almost all have bays of one kind or another. Here are some ideas from the Versatile Fighter study proposal.

 

[Firebee]

Wow. The inflatable semi-conformal setup is wild. I don't recall ever seeing that before. Thank you for these images.

 

[Avimimus]

Yes Haig was chief and the other guys were Mech Design and Mech Design Manager. One Christmas I needed a date for the group party so I invited Haig's Secretary - we are still married!

We were very aware that future fighters would need internal weopons bays and almost all have bays of one kind or another. Here are some ideas from the Versatile Fighter study proposal.

Very neat concepts... really 'outside the box' (literally)

Also, congrats to you and your wife!

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Ive seen that blended conformal cruise missile before. It was in Ricahrdson's book STEALTH, in the cruise missiles section.

 

[LowObservable]

There were all sorts of ideas floating around in those days for LO-compatible conformal weapons such as Have Slick (AGM) and Have Dash (AAM) as well as compressed-carriage internal weapons like the thing in BillRo's drawings (that looks a lot like an R-77).

All were trashcanned by AF and AF Systems Command leadership who dictated standard weapons, including MK series - designed for low-drag external carriage but non-optimal internally (better off with a cylinder). The concession was to snip a few inches off the AIM-120 fins and tails.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

One more painting of "Agile" from a much more flattering angle.

thanks to BillRo (who else?)

 

[airrocket]

Very unique design appears Scott has the details on this one. However to search and find it in Scott's vast collection I need a clue as to what the heck it is? ??? ?

 

[Apollo Leader]

It was one of Northrop's designs leading up to the YF-23 (note the head-on similarity to the final F-23 family). Obviously a strong focus on RCS reduction. I think it was nick-named the "Christmas Fighter".

 

[Kryptid]

Wow...this thing deserves to be turned into a 3D model or a good, colored 3-view!