Northrop / McDonnell Douglas ATF - YF-23 and EMD F-23

[blackkite]

Oh! I want to see such a detailed front and aft view.
This fighter was very fascinating.

 

[lantinian]

Wow, the IRST system is visible.
Overscan, you obviously got more of those

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The pictures come from this presentation about fighter design:

files.asme.org/asmeorg/Governance/KnowledgeCommunity/8800.ppt

They are the only two new F-23 pictures in the presento. By some coincidence I found this presentation this evening and came here to upload the two pictures to find that Overscan had beaten me by a few hours...

 

[flateric]

Guys, needless to say, that you ROCK!!

 

[lantinian]

Yes... this slide from the presentation made for some very educated smiles ;D
Titled:
LOOK WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DESIGN GROUPS HAVE THEIR WAY

 

[Orionblamblam]

The presentation authors contact info is on the last page. So... who's going to contact him to see if more info is available regarding those drawings? I'd recommend *one* person, not the whole group.

 

[flateric]

well, it should be US citizen as well I, suppose...

 

[johnnyjetpilot]

I don't mean to add a frivolous reply to what's been a very thoughtful and intelligent discussion of one of the most beautiful and unusual birds ever to fly, but there's a new straight-to-DVD Wonder Woman animated movie where Steve Trevor, the American pilot who crashes into Paradise Island, is flying an F-23. There are three F-23s in the scene, in fact, and it's cool to see them in action, even in a cartoon. Again, not trying to be frivolous. But I thought it would be of interest to scholars of the plane that the animators went with the YF-23 when looking for the perfect design for their fighter jets in the movie. The movie itself is good -- Batman Begins meets 300, with a shocking amount of really intense action and violence (and a lot of humor, too, thanks to Nathan Fillion, who voices Steve Trevor).

(The last time I got this excited about seeing a plane in a movie was the two F-35s escorting the shuttle in Superman Returns.)

 

[sferrin]

well, it should be US citizen as well I, suppose...

With some clout. I'd think either Scott, Tailspin Turtle, or LowObservable.

 

[Lampshade111]

I was reading through this topic and it seems several people here have seen official photos/concepts/artwork of the proposed NATF version of the YF-23. Does anybody have any of these to share?

 

[Orionblamblam]

well, it should be US citizen as well I, suppose...

With some clout. I'd think either Scott, Tailspin Turtle, or LowObservable.

TT would, I suspect, have the highest "name recognition," but I'd be happy to do so. If nobody else is dying to do so by tomorrow AM, I'll contact the author, and see what more might be available.

 

[donnage99]

Millions of thanks, this is just too good to be true!

Wow, the IRST system is visible.
Overscan, you obviously got more of those

So the IRST is located under the nose instead of dual sensor on the sides of the f-22 proposal. Anyone who is "tasked" ;D to contact him, would you be very kind to also ask if he knows anything about the overall sensors proposal (such as the lockheed and boeing bets to have RWR embedded antennas placed around the leading edges of the aircraft while GE to have dual IRST on the sides). I'm dying to know this information! Thanks!

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

I really like that picture of what happens when design groups get their way...

Hilarious!


KJ Lesnick

 

[flateric]

So the IRST is located under the nose instead of dual sensor on the sides of the f-22 proposal.

Not quite so in case of F-22...

 

[donnage99]

So the IRST is located under the nose instead of dual sensor on the sides of the f-22 proposal.

Not quite so in case of F-22...

That's a wind tunnel test for growth potential after the dual IRST have been cancelled, right? I meant the original proposal.

 

[Orionblamblam]

If nobody else is dying to do so by tomorrow AM, I'll contact the author, and see what more might be available.

Attempts at contact are underway. I'll advise on what, if anything, transpires.

 

[flateric]

just in case it will not work, I have Bob Sandusky contacts

 

[flateric]

That's a wind tunnel test for growth potential after the dual IRST have been cancelled, right? I meant the original proposal.

Just to put timeframe right.

By July 1988, [Lockheed ATF] Configuration 632 had evolved into Configuration 634, which had a relocated cockpit, a shortened inlet, and an improved structural arrangement. More importantly, it had a $9 million cap on flyaway cost for avionics. The cost cap on avionics had a profound effect on the program.[...]The infrared search and track system bit the dust and so did a lot of other systems, including the side-looking radar apertures.

I bet F-23A shown on drawings was born much later then 1988...summer of 1990.

 

[lantinian]

I bet F-23A shown on drawings was born much later then 1988...summer of 1990.

Makes sence. I resembles the Matej drawings more than an YF-23 but still leaves a couple of details out that might have come up after flight testing. Differences like the sawtooth edge on the flaps and the distance between the engines
I notice the following changes by comparing them to some YF-23 drawings in my head.
- nose radome has significant more volume
- there seams to be enough space now for a second smaller weapons bay in front of the main one. I think the front undercarriage was moved forward among other things.
- there are inlet cones (absent from the YF-23) as seen in the F-23A drawings by Matej
- Tailerons appear to be smaller
- engine nacelles are narrower
- Exhaust nozzles appear to have something else other than ceramic tiles

There are probably many other changes to access door and systems but there are more qualified people in that forum to make those observations

I don't remember uploading those here, but in light of recent discoveries, I don't think certain people would mind. Years ago, superimposed the outlines of the prototype and what 3-view I had of the F-23A with those of the YF-23 and differences are quite obvious.

 

[Ogami musashi]

Excuse me but where do you see an F23A on the presentation? i can only see the side view labelled as F23 and i don't really see an inlet cone, and the top view is labelled as YF-23.

 

[lantinian]

Excuse me but where do you see an F23A on the presentation? i can only see the side view labelled as F23 and i don't really see an inlet cone, and the top view is labelled as YF-23.

You have to be blind no to see that these drawings are not of the YF-23. The nose section is different enough.
Re the nose cone. The YF-23 contained no such bulge in the inlet.

You are right on one thing. Its not the F-23A, but its neither the YF-23. Its just an F-23 drawing before the final proposal were submitted.

Looking at the F-22 program, the proposal that was submitted in 1991 differed slightly from the F-22 we know today. So, it is natural that the F-23 would evolve further had it won the contract. We will never know what would the F-23A look like because it was never fully developed.

 

[flateric]

Excuse me but where do you see an F23A on the presentation? i can only see the side view labelled as F23 and i don't really see an inlet cone, and the top view is labelled as YF-23.

well, you'd imrove your recognition scills a little, friend

 

[Ogami musashi]

Well as lantinian said it is not the F23A; and it is not labelled F-23A but YF-23A so that's why i was asking..Never said it was the yf-23 without differencies.

As for the inlet cone, i noticed that part but as nothing indicates it and as on this precise sideview some parts are missing i wasn't sure.

 

[flanker]

So, did anyone have luck contacting Mr. Burt Dicht?

I am currently building a model of Yf-23 (here: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=181769&hl=) and i wounder if you guys could help me with some things:

1: I remember reading earlier in this thread that there are very few Yf-23 cockpit pictures...Quick google search said it was indeed the case. Could you guys be bothered to show those that exists?

2: To my knowledge Yf-23 used parts of F-15 cockpit, but what version of F-15, and what parts? Only instrument panel or sideconsoles too? Wikipedia says it was F-15E instrument panel, true, or error in Wiki article?

3: Does anyone have a good close picture of the area between the engines? I need them because i have to find out where the panellines go.

 

[flateric]

YF-23 used F-15E off-the-shelf equipment
you surely must get one of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Northrup-Grumman-YF-23-Black-Widow-FLIGHT-MANUAL_W0QQitemZ110360352319QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b1fd563f&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

the only known YF-23 operational cockpit pic (low quality, just part, and shoot from a long distance) was here
http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Stealth-Fighters-Bombers-F-117/dp/0879386096/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242484846&sr=8-36

you may also try to contact Chris Wilson who's building 1/32 YF-23 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=89934

your believe in Italeri's panel lines at the bottom of fuselage was a big mistake

in 1/72 scale, I'm hardly think that any panel lines should be shown at all, but here goes little help

don't forget to check excellent walkarounds by Dale Elhardt aka 'LAX' http://aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/yf-23/yf-23.htm
and Bill Spindle http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle/yf-23_walk_2.htm
and Michael Benolkin's one http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-23/f-23_walk.shtml

 

[frank]

Why can't some people spell 'NorthrOp' correctly?

YF-23 used F-15E off-the-shelf equipment
you surely must get one of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Northrup-Grumman-YF-23-Black-Widow-FLIGHT-MANUAL_W0QQitemZ110360352319QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b1fd563f&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

 

[flateric]

Northrup often being used by insiders - dunno why, in fact

 

[AeroFranz]

Frankly I think it's just that spelling is not exactly given a high priority in the US educational system. It doesn't help that compared to other languages, in English there is less correspondence between how you pronounce words and how you write them (hence the common mistakes of using 'to' when you really mean 'too', or 'then' when you mean 'than'...and the list goes on).
I cringe every time i read 'Northrup'

 

[flanker]

Flateric, thanks for the info.

you may also try to contact Chris Wilson who's building 1/32 YF-23 http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=89934

If you read my first reply in the thread i linked to, i have already spoken with Chris.

your believe in Italeri's panel lines at the bottom of fuselage was a big mistake

in 1/72 scale, I'm hardly think that any panel lines should be shown at all, but here goes little hel

Well, i respectively disagree. You can see hardly see the panellines on it in 1/1, so they should be invisible in *any* scale. But the thing is, if you scale down a panelline from any plane (not just Yf-23), down to either 1/32, 1/48 or 1/72, they should not be invisible. How deep is a panelline on a normal airplane in 1/1 scale? 1 mm maybe or so? Scale it down to 1/72 and it should be invisible. But IMHO, a totally smooth plane (again, pick any, not just Yf-23) in 1/72 is going just to look like a toy, and resemble the reality less than with panel lines.

A normal panelline depth on a kit in 1/72 scale is about half mm. If a panelline is 1mm on a real plane, that means half mm should be on a model in 1/2 scale, not 1/72. Basically, there is no perfect model. You can not duplicate a real plane.

I had all of those walkarounds from before, but thanks anyway. Those two pictures certainly help!

 

[donnage99]

I remember there were several pix of the cockpit in hornets80.net which I provided the link several pages back. I was such an idiot for not saving them. The website is now gone. Archive does not have the pix. Anyone here saved them can attach the images here?

 

[flateric]

All photos by Yuichi Yokokava

 

[flanker]

Again, thanks for the pictures. Helped a lot.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Hi All -

I think some of you might enjoy this drawing....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[donnage99]

Yes we do ;D Where did you get this? Is it from the same source?

Anyway, I just moved to Wesminster, California, which is about 40 minutes drive from western museum of flight in Hawthorne. I heard that the yf-23 pav-2 was taken back by Northrop, but did they return it to the museum? If they did, I might drive there to take some vid/pictures. Anyone knows of its where about I would greatly appreciate.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Its still in the parking lot at El Segundo, you can probably see it from the road out front. The YF-23 is there for workforce morale and to provide something very cool near the corporate history centre. I doubt they are going to give it back to the museum.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Hi All -

I think some of you might enjoy this drawing....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

This is brilliant. But what bugs me is the file name is 'small'... when are we going to see 'big'!!! Keep it coming MN!

 

[Mark Nankivil]

File attachment size limitations "forced" me to resize it

I'll see what I can do to give you the "bigger picture".

Drawing is from a different source - lucky question and response on my part.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[flanker]

Hello Mark, would it possible to upload the full version here?

http://www.megaupload.com/

 

[Machdiamond]

Fantastic drawing ! This makes my day. It even has the Aitoff plot on it B)
Me too I want to see the bigger picture...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I can upload higher quality copies to the forum.