Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider (LRS-B)

[sferrin]

This Time article is trash, but one interesting mention popped out - the airframe shell is built first and systems are installed afterwards. Assuming this is true and not a typical journalistic error on a military matter, is this done for any other airframe or are they using a unique assembly method specific to this particular composite structure?

EDIT: one other interesting note, they claim two vehicles are completed, the roll out T1 and also G1, a ground test vehicle. Four other shells being assembled, presumably all the EMD aircraft.

Exclusive: The Making of the Military's New Stealth Bomber

The U.S. is making a massive, strategic gamble that hasn't paid off in the past

time.com

CH-53K structure is built and then stuffed.

 

[Josh_TN]

Random thought again that will sound fanboi-ish (sounds fanboi to me just writing it). It seems likely the B-21 is going to have a sensor suite that can detect a fair amount of stuff passively and likely actively interrogate a target at long distance with a number of radar modes over a very tight azimuth/bearing if it feels like it. F-22's are rumored to be able to actively only emit across a 2 degree arc against a passive target. So for a B-21, perhaps I see a missile plumb from land...SAR strip search in the local area. ESM target in the air, active target track. Passive ship ESM/IR targe? ISAR identification. Given the ISR it brings to the table, and how limited glide bombs are and how slow cruise missiles are (and redundant with the B-1/52s), will the USAF equip it with a missile that is cross domain and fast? Hear me out.

AGM-158 doesn't bring much to the table to a B-21. Other aircraft can deliver it. Same LRASM. If a B-21 is attacking a wide area land target, presumably it could carry SBD-I/II and that would account for like 99% of all land targets, hardened, moving, or otherwise. But what about naval/air in the Pacific theater which is the primary area of concern?

Would it be weird for the USAF to integrate SM-6/SM-2 blk3C? The USN prizes it because it is a swiss army knife of anti air, ABM, anti surface, and apparently even land (US Army apparently is adopting it unmodified for MRC just to dig a hole in the ground with that AIM-120 based seeker). Expensive missile, but since it can be used on almost anything it saves Mk41 cells. If the USAF adopted a modified SM-6 (sans Mk72 booster) or SM-2 Blk3C upgrade kit, it would easily fit internally in a B-2 rotary launcher (15 feet, 14 inches, 1800 lbs). And if you did that, you'd probably be able to reach out to air targets at 300km as an anti AWACs/MPA/ELINT/etc weapon, and also hit surface targets with a supersonic aeroballistic missile at those ranges, and still be able to pop high priority static land targets with simple INS/GPS. And you'd be able to do any of these things all at once, because the USN and US Army has already paid for the development. It is a little expensive and antiquated in seeker tech, but big advantage: SM-6 has a hot line already and SM-2 blk3C is a modification kit about to enter production. Lots of missiles available. Every large slow air target (tanker/HALE/AEW/bomber), ship, and land target within 300km or so it could reach out to and kill in minutes.

Crazy thought?

 

[donnage99]

yes resurrect boost phase air launch BMD please!!!

 

[sferrin]

AGM-158 doesn't bring much to the table to a B-21. Other aircraft can deliver it. Same LRASM. If a B-21 is attacking a wide area land target, presumably it could carry SBD-I/II and that would account for like 99% of all land targets, hardened, moving, or otherwise. But what about naval/air in the Pacific theater which is the primary area of concern?

On the contrary, it means it doesn't have to fly all the way to the target if it can launch an AGM-158. That gives it a larger effective radius without having to rely on more overworked tankers.

 

[Josh_TN]

AGM-158 doesn't bring much to the table to a B-21. Other aircraft can deliver it. Same LRASM. If a B-21 is attacking a wide area land target, presumably it could carry SBD-I/II and that would account for like 99% of all land targets, hardened, moving, or otherwise. But what about naval/air in the Pacific theater which is the primary area of concern?

On the contrary, it means it doesn't have to fly all the way to the target if it can launch an AGM-158. That gives it a larger effective radius without having to rely on more overworked tankers.

A B-21 will likely carry an order of magnitude more SDBs than AGM-158s. Seems a waste to use it to carry those when that would be about the only viable weapon for B-1/52, and now even C-17s can fling cruise missiles.

 

[Josh_TN]

yes resurrect boost phase air launch BMD please!!!

That seems like a harder niche to fill because you’d have to have aircraft constantly on station.

 

[sferrin]

AGM-158 doesn't bring much to the table to a B-21. Other aircraft can deliver it. Same LRASM. If a B-21 is attacking a wide area land target, presumably it could carry SBD-I/II and that would account for like 99% of all land targets, hardened, moving, or otherwise. But what about naval/air in the Pacific theater which is the primary area of concern?

On the contrary, it means it doesn't have to fly all the way to the target if it can launch an AGM-158. That gives it a larger effective radius without having to rely on more overworked tankers.

A B-21 will likely carry an order of magnitude more SDBs than AGM-158s. Seems a waste to use it to carry those when that would be about the only viable weapon for B-1/52, and now even C-17s can fling cruise missiles.

None of that changes the fact it will have increased reach (and hitting power) when using JASSM. And SDBs against a warship is a non-starter.

 

[bring_it_on]

If they could get a single mode seeker version of the SiAW (it will probably have multiple variants) to come in at or below $1 MM a pop then that becomes a very impressive weapon whether coming out of the bays of a F-35, B-21 or NGAD. The Raider SiAW loadout should be impressive.

 

[sferrin]

If they could get a single mode seeker version of the SiAW (it will probably have multiple variants) to come in at or below $1 MM a pop then that becomes a very impressive weapon whether coming out of the bays of a F-35, B-21 or NGAD. The Raider SiAW loadout should be impressive.

Any idea how big of a warhead it has?

 

[TomS]

If they could get a single mode seeker version of the SiAW (it will probably have multiple variants) to come in at or below $1 MM a pop then that becomes a very impressive weapon whether coming out of the bays of a F-35, B-21 or NGAD. The Raider SiAW loadout should be impressive.

Any idea how big of a warhead it has?

Depends on what they actually select for SiAW. The original plan was that SiAW would be AARGM-ER with a different seeker, in which case the warhead is probably ~150 lbs (though apparently not the same warhead as HARM/AARGM). With SiAW now in competition, it could be anything that fits inside the F-35 internal bay footprint and a fast missile.

 

[Josh_TN]

AGM-158 doesn't bring much to the table to a B-21. Other aircraft can deliver it. Same LRASM. If a B-21 is attacking a wide area land target, presumably it could carry SBD-I/II and that would account for like 99% of all land targets, hardened, moving, or otherwise. But what about naval/air in the Pacific theater which is the primary area of concern?

On the contrary, it means it doesn't have to fly all the way to the target if it can launch an AGM-158. That gives it a larger effective radius without having to rely on more overworked tankers.

A B-21 will likely carry an order of magnitude more SDBs than AGM-158s. Seems a waste to use it to carry those when that would be about the only viable weapon for B-1/52, and now even C-17s can fling cruise missiles.

None of that changes the fact it will have increased reach (and hitting power) when using JASSM. And SDBs against a warship is a non-starter.

I'm not saying AGM-158 shouldn't be integrated; I'm just saying taking a nearly invisible platform and then just loading it with the same ordnance you'd use on a B-52 seems wasteful when it heavily limits the number of weapons carried. As for SDB on ships, I don't see any reason why the Stormbreaker version couldn't be used that way. Dropped from 50,000 feet/15,000 meters, which seems to be the likely cruise altitude, you might get a 100km range even against a moving target. It would be easy to shoot down, and it wouldn't sink a ship, but if you have to shoot down a hundred of them (which seems like a perfectly plausible bomb load for B-21) you are at a minimum going to expend an unreasonable number of SAMs. A few hits probably missions kills the ship for a follow on strike.

But to your point, something that hit harder and had more stand off (and IMO is much faster) is desirable. LRASM is still a subsonic, easy to detect target for its end run. It's strength seems to be more in being fired in the general direction of the enemy and being able to find targets without ISR. On a B-21 I think it much more effective to attack a target it identified with something with a much faster flight time. SiAM might work if it ultimately has a terminal seeker capable of hitting ship targets, though I personally prefer the idea of a weapon that could also be used against long range air targets for flexibility.

 

[Forest Green]

You might need the B-52s and the B-21s launching them. Or it might save an IFR if the bomber doesn't have to fly all the way. Or it might serve to keep the aircraft safe of areas where an optical sighting is more likely.

 

[Josh_TN]

You might need the B-52s and the B-21s launching them. Or it might save an IFR if the bomber doesn't have to fly all the way. Or it might serve to keep the aircraft safe of areas where an optical sighting is more likely.

No doubt there are advantages, and I'm sure it will be integrated. But it seems like a sub optimal solution that doesn't play to the platform's strengths. I'd either want something smaller and cheaper that I could carry a lot more of or something with a much higher engagement speed (SiAM might potentially be both of these). The B-21 probably doesn't need a weapon that can search for its own targets; it likely will be its own best ISR asset.

 

[TomcatViP]

Don't forget that there are fairly large countries out there. Raider offers the luxury to engage from inside the heart of those countries by defeating their border defenses. Then, a cruise missile launched from inside the fence has more chance of success. Having range, the latter also offers a rapid multi-targets capability without exposing the bomber to a counter-response by that country's aviation.

 

[X-39]

Revisiting old threads i just realized is not the first time the odd four-piece windscreen arrangement has been seen here in SPF.. it was carried over from NG STAV. (Correct me if i'm wrong)

 

[Mikefolks]

Yup, a B-21 with a belly full of SDB is never going to simultaneously hit two targets that are 1000 miles apart.

 

[rooster]

Revisiting old threads i just realized is not the first time the odd four-piece windscreen arrangement has been seen here in SPF.. it was carried over from NG STAV. (Correct me if i'm wrong)

I would say No. That is more like the 2 small windows in the bone

 

[X-39]

Revisiting old threads i just realized is not the first time the odd four-piece windscreen arrangement has been seen here in SPF.. it was carried over from NG STAV. (Correct me if i'm wrong)

I would say No. That is more like the 2 small windows in the bone

Which ones?

 

[Bounce]

Revisiting old threads i just realized is not the first time the odd four-piece windscreen arrangement has been seen here in SPF.. it was carried over from NG STAV. (Correct me if i'm wrong)

I would say No. That is more like the 2 small windows in the bone

Which ones?

The small ones you didn't circle it would seem like.

 

[X-39]

Lol.... history repeats itself. This would mark the #2 time in a row NG birds retain features derived from their high speed ancestors. In other words, it could be said that maybe the B-2/B-21 were/are an evolution of their predecessors certain aspects of the B-21 development mirrored/are mirroring that of the B-2, with both vehicles evolving from a high speed penetrator to a subsonic vehicle? Let's not forget that there was a similar timelapse between LAP and ATB(1979-1989) and STAV vs B-21(2007-2018(LRSB CDR)) Any members here have knowledge if there were plans to submit STAV as NGB entry, different from the late 70's LAP, which was more or less the first iteration of the design for the future bomber fleet before the supersonic requirement was dropped?

 

[bobbymike]

The B-21’s possible future role in maritime strike - Breaking Defense

Little is known about the details of the newly unveiled B-21 bomber, but IISS's Ben Ho writes that from what we know, its mission set could expand to the sea.

breakingdefense.com

 

[kamo]

F118 is 85kN engine while F135 is 125kN engine. B2 has 340kN thrust vs. B21 250kN thrust - basically only 35% less, but with at least 45% lower fuel consumption. If they use some technologies from Adaptive Engine then they could have even more thrust. And of course lower fuel consumption mean less weight. Basically it could be B2 resized - benefiting from lower fuel consumption plus smaller airframe mean lower drag. B2 has 75 tons of fuel on board, B21 with lower fuel consumption could require around 40 tons for same range. Last thought - maybe resize around fuel doesn’t require to cut weapons capacity?

I agree, we've come so far since the 80's on efficiency that engine tech + construction methods (weight reductions) + aerodynamics alone could give more than enough range without sacrificing payloads

 

[GTX]

Australia’s B-21 decision: deterrence matters | The Strategist

The recent ASPI report by Marcus Hellyer and Andrew Nicolls is a welcome addition to the B-21 debate in Australia. In the report, Hellyer and Nicolls cite Michael Mazarr, a senior political scientist at the ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

 

[sferrin]

The closest Australia will ever get to owning B-21s would be if they allowed US B-21s to have permanent forward basing there.

 

[kamo]

The closest Australia will ever get to owning B-21s would be if they allowed US B-21s to have permanent forward basing there.

it would be a win for everybody, especially if australia pays for the basing and the fact USAF is short on cash

 

[GTX]

The closest Australia will ever get to owning B-21s would be if they allowed US B-21s to have permanent forward basing there.

Let's see what is decided under the soon to be released Defence Strategic Review and then if AUKUS allows for.

 

[X-39]

New Patches according to DLR:

**NEW** B-21 3 Stealth Bomber Northrop Grumman 4" Patch Military 2022 USAF OPS | eBay

The quarter in the photo is for size reference and it is not included. Ace/Jack = Black Jack(21). This is 100% Authentic. High quality. Bleeding Heart = Enemies. CDXX = 420. 4 = Unlucky Chinese Number.

www.ebay.com

Hidden Meanings:

• Tell No Tales = Secret Program
• 3 red marks pointing down = Death From Above
• Skull = Harbinger of Death
• 7 = Lucky Number in America
• 4 = Unlucky Chinese Number
• CDXX = 420
• No Jaw = Silence
• Hourglass = Impending Doom
• Bleeding Heart = Enemies
• Falcon Skull = Harbinger of Death/F-16
• Crown Jewels = B-21

We then have this Smythers guy BSing again:

Re: Pirate patches for B-21

He is only seeing what he wants to see, IMHO. It is true that in the past, silhouettes of classified aircraft were cleverly hidden in patches(McDD BoP), but mirroring an image can create all kinds of illusions. While it would be nice if indeed the Raider turns out to be built around AFC instead of moving control surfaces, there is nothing in this wight patch that suggests this is the case when the thing supposed to validate this technology hasn't even flown yet, and someone needs to tell Smythers the unveiling happened almost 2 months ago ,after watching he will begrudgingly accept that the B-21 DOES NOT look like a Batwing or certain even more obscure concept belonging to a different company.

 

[bobbymike]

Northrop eyes low-rate production contract for B-21 this year

Northrop is wary of inflation and said more companies are pushing back on fixed-price contracts.

www.defensenews.com

 

[TomcatViP]

Many government customers “now understand that shifting too much risk to industry doesn’t support that investment, nor does it deliver the capability they need in a timely fashion,” Warden said. “I expect we’re going to see less fixed-price development going forward.”

Good!

 

[RavenOne]

According to this press release, the USAF is on about low rate production rate for the B-21 this year.

Northrop eyes low-rate production contract for B-21 this year

Northrop is wary of inflation and said more companies are pushing back on fixed-price contracts.

www.defensenews.com

cheers

 

[BlackBat242]

According to this press release, the USAF is on about low rate production rate for the B-21 this year.

Northrop eyes low-rate production contract for B-21 this year

Northrop is wary of inflation and said more companies are pushing back on fixed-price contracts.

www.defensenews.com

cheers

Bobbymike posted the same link 2 posts (and one day) before you did.

 

[X-39]

Northrop Warns Of Possible Losses On B-21 Production | Aviation Week Network

The potential loss would reflect inflationary pressures and the impact of supply chain disruptions on the first five lots of low-rate production.

aviationweek.com

 

[Forest Green]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1618926792630325248

 

[GTX]

US Congress suggests sending B-21 stealth bombers to Australia under AUKUS partnership - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

 

[sferrin]

US Congress suggests sending B-21 stealth bombers to Australia under AUKUS partnership - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

The increase cooperation with Australia is interesting.

 

[Bounce]

I thought that it was widely known the whole point of the B-2s visit was to demonstrate it working.

 

[In_A_Dream]

I wonder what kind of escort set up they are planning for the B-21.

One option was said to be off the table:

EXCLUSIVE: Air Force scraps B-21 drone wingman concept - Breaking Defense

After doing some analysis, the idea appears to be “less attractive than we thought it might be," Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall told Breaking Defense.

breakingdefense.com

 

[NeilChapman]

I believe that article is from last year.

 

[flateric]

Hence 'said' I guess

 

[GTX]

‘Equivalent To Six F-35 Stealth Fighters’, US Congressman Urges Biden To Send B-21 Stealth Bombers To Australia

American lawmakers have asked the Biden administration to consider sending the next-generation B-21 bombers to Australia as part of a congressional proposal put to the US Secretary of Defense.

world-defence.com