Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider (LRS-B)

[Josh_TN]

I doubt there are any surprises in store for us. But perhaps we will get some other technical information with the role out.

 

[sferrin]

I doubt there are any surprises in store for us. But perhaps we will get some other technical information with the role out.

That would be depressing as hell, because what we know thus far is pretty damn disappointing.

 

[totoro]

Oh I'm sure there will be some tidbits thrown to the media. Such as: it's got a wingspan of over xxx feet. It weighs over xxx tons. Its range is intercontinental and its payload is over xx tons. Maybe we'll even get a confirmation of exactly how many crew members it has.

 

[Josh_TN]

I doubt there are any surprises in store for us. But perhaps we will get some other technical information with the role out.

That would be depressing as hell, because what we know thus far is pretty damn disappointing.

I presume you are referring to it being smaller with a smaller payload?

 

[sferrin]

I doubt there are any surprises in store for us. But perhaps we will get some other technical information with the role out.

That would be depressing as hell, because what we know thus far is pretty damn disappointing.

I presume you are referring to it being smaller with a smaller payload?

Yep. And yes, I know we already disagree on whether or not that matters so let's pretend we've already debated it and move on.

 

[FighterJock]

Maybe we'll even get a confirmation of exactly how many crew members it has.

The B-2 had two crew members plus space for a third if needed but never used. I tend to think that Northrop will stick with two crew especially for long range missions.

 

[flateric]

I doubt there are any surprises in store for us. But perhaps we will get some other technical information with the role out.

That would be depressing as hell, because what we know thus far is pretty damn disappointing.

I presume you are referring to it being smaller with a smaller payload?

It's smaller with a smaller payload. Look at two-wheel MLGs and consider that centerline bottom fuselage clearance to the ground should be equal or bit higher than average AF technician.

 

[Hydroman]

It will more than likely be two crew members, twin-engine and definitely smaller than the B-2. The B-2 third man area is a crew rest area for the long missions. The original 3rd man EW operator was only required if the aircraft's natural RCS did not meet spec and we know there is no third man.

 

[flateric]

Third seat area is taken now by electronics racks.
Pilots slept behind seats across with heads over entry hatch and legs to lavatory.

 

[Flyaway]

I doubt there are any surprises in store for us. But perhaps we will get some other technical information with the role out.

Not unless they unveil the RQ-180 as well, or whatever it’s called.

 

[BlackBat242]

It will more than likely be two crew members, twin-engine and definitely smaller than the B-2. The B-2 third man area is a crew rest area for the long missions. The original 3rd man EW operator was only required if the aircraft's natural RCS did not meet spec and we know there is no third man.

B-2: 4x F118 @ 17,000 lb.s.t each; 68,000 lb.s.t. total

B-21: 2x F135-derivative* @ 40,000-45,000 lb.s.t. each; 80,000-90,000 lb.s.t. total


* as per link in post# 2,879

 

[totoro]

If it's gonna be f135 derivative then it's gonna be one without an afterburner. So the correct comparison is 4x 85 kn for B2 versus 2x 125 kn for b21. 340 kn vs 250 kn in total.

 

[JWilly]

I'm sure the LO for B-21 has evolved, early days of B-2 flight test were a pain but kept getting better over time, big improvements at Block 30 and beyond, LO always evolving. B-21 is probably twin engine, its smaller than the B-2 (you can tell by the MLGs), could be feasible for the RAAF, unit cost may be an issue. If the Aussie's get B-21s then JASDF may want some as well.

Might be difficult for the JASDF to get that, given the fact that bombers are strictly offensive. There’d be a hue and cry over any purchase due to the post-war “peace” constitution.

"Defense" can include combat interactions with elements attacking Japanese nationals, or territory, or vessels. Or, planning to attack. Or blockading/interdicting, which amounts to an economic attack.

Or maybe even allies' nationals/territory/vessels, or a blockage/interdiction of an ally, per treaty obligations or otherwise.

That's not to say that that'd work politically within Japan. But, arguably it would be consistent with the literal wording of the Japanese Constitution as presently understood by Japanese legal authorities.

 

[Josh_TN]

If it's gonna be f135 derivative then it's gonna be one without an afterburner. So the correct comparison is 4x 85 kn for B2 versus 2x 125 kn for b21. 340 kn vs 250 kn in total.

It will be interesting to see the final size and I'd love to know the empty weight, but I assume that will not be available. It looks like the plane will be ~2/3 the size of B-2 which fits with ~70% of the installed power. But I suspect the airframe is significantly less dense than its older cousin, particularly with those MGL. The aerodynamics should favor the B-21 as well by dropping the saw tooth tail that was installed for low level penetration. I'd expect it to be somewhat faster (though obviously firmly subsonic) with higher service ceiling.

 

[Tuna]

But I suspect the airframe is significantly less dense than its older cousin,

The engines alone are going to save ~2.5 tons. The more modern engines are also a lot more efficient, unless they want more range they can probably save several tons out of the fuel reserves. Combined with how much more efficient composites are these days, it would not greatly surprise me if a 70% airframe would be able to match the old one in payload.

 

[bobbymike]

Odds of having a self defense laser, anyone?

 

[FighterJock]

Odds of having a self defense laser, anyone?

Not good bobbymike, until lasers get shrunk down from the behemoths that was the COIL laser on the Airborne Laser then I do not see them appearing anytime soon on the B-21 sadly.

 

[paralay]

,

 

[starviking]

I'm sure the LO for B-21 has evolved, early days of B-2 flight test were a pain but kept getting better over time, big improvements at Block 30 and beyond, LO always evolving. B-21 is probably twin engine, its smaller than the B-2 (you can tell by the MLGs), could be feasible for the RAAF, unit cost may be an issue. If the Aussie's get B-21s then JASDF may want some as well.

Might be difficult for the JASDF to get that, given the fact that bombers are strictly offensive. There’d be a hue and cry over any purchase due to the post-war “peace” constitution.

"Defense" can include combat interactions with elements attacking Japanese nationals, or territory, or vessels. Or, planning to attack. Or blockading/interdicting, which amounts to an economic attack.

Or maybe even allies' nationals/territory/vessels, or a blockage/interdiction of an ally, per treaty obligations or otherwise.

That's not to say that that'd work politically within Japan. But, arguably it would be consistent with the literal wording of the Japanese Constitution as presently understood by Japanese legal authorities.

Good points. However, the opposition in Japanese politics would ignore them and raise a hue and cry, and the government would tiptoe carefully around the matter because of it.

However, give it a few years - with Xi’s forthrightness about the use of military force to control Taiwan, Japan’s fallow ground may become fertile.

 

[Moose]

Odds of having a self defense laser, anyone?

Not good bobbymike, until lasers get shrunk down from the behemoths that was the COIL laser on the Airborne Laser then I do not see them appearing anytime soon on the B-21 sadly.

Depends on the size laser you want, the Army has 50kw on a Stryker SHORAD and 300kw on a HEMTT.

 

[Forest Green]

How much extra weight would it entail? You already have a lot of power available from the engines, so it's just a case of gen size and the laser itself.

 

[flateric]

Instagram spot a little bit different

Northrop Grumman on Instagram: "12.2.2022: This changes everything."

Northrop Grumman shared a post on Instagram: "12.2.2022: This changes everything.". Follow their account to see 1967 posts.

www.instagram.com

 

[bobbymike]

Coming soon: The official rollout of the secretive B-21

The first flight of the B-21 is expected to come in 2023, a few months after the rollout.

www.defensenews.com

 

[quellish]

Odds of having a self defense laser, anyone?

Odds of it operating near clouds or fog?

 

[rooster]

It will more than likely be two crew members, twin-engine and definitely smaller than the B-2. The B-2 third man area is a crew rest area for the long missions. The original 3rd man EW operator was only required if the aircraft's natural RCS did not meet spec and we know there is no third man.

B-2: 4x F118 @ 17,000 lb.s.t each; 68,000 lb.s.t. total

B-21: 2x F135-derivative* @ 40,000-45,000 lb.s.t. each; 80,000-90,000 lb.s.t. total


* as per link in post# 2,879

Your estimates are way high. Maybe 65k and maybe 67k. That's it.

 

[rooster]

Odds of having a self defense laser, anyone?

In the rear like on AF1 and other transports. Of course if someone is shooting a missile at it, its no longer under the cloak of stealth and there's no way it will outrun a fighter.

 

[TomS]

Odds of having a self defense laser, anyone?

In the rear like on AF1 and other transports. Of course if someone is shooting a missile at it, its no longer under the cloak of stealth and there's no way it will outrun a fighter.

LAIRCM from the outset seems likely. But I'd expect a space reservation for something more like SHiELD that has some actual hard-kill capability.

 

[NeilChapman]

Odds of having a self defense laser, anyone?

In the rear like on AF1 and other transports. Of course if someone is shooting a missile at it, its no longer under the cloak of stealth and there's no way it will outrun a fighter.

LAIRCM from the outset seems likely. But I'd expect a space reservation for something more like SHiELD that has some actual hard-kill capability.

That's an interesting thought. SHiELD space reservation seems unlikely to me. B-21 design specs were locked in early. That seems like a lot of real estate and weight to account for so early in a program.

But, we'll find out soon enough.

 

[TomS]

That's an interesting thought. SHiELD space reservation seems unlikely to me. B-21 design specs were locked in early. That seems like a lot of real estate and weight to account for so early in a program.

But, we'll find out soon enough.

SHiELD isn't huge. It fits in a 610-gallon drop tank. A conformal stealthy solution would be a bit more intensive but not impossibly large.

Edit: Now that the caffeine has kicked in, possibly a defensive armament bay initially for small missiles, with the possibility of swapping for a hard-kill laser when available? Defensive missiles have been on the USAF wish list for a while and MSDM is supposed to be flying (for testing) next year.

 

[Kat Tsun]

If it has a bomb bay like B-1 or anything, I suspect they'd just put self defense missiles in there with the nukes. Kinda like XB-70 but less silly of a rocket. MSDM looks like a fairly normal rocket so it can probably be dropped vertically out of a bay and not require finding space in a wing or fuselage structure per se.

I guess you could lose some of the in-wing fuel tankage if you really wanted that though.

 

[TomS]

If it has a bomb bay like B-1 or anything, I suspect they'd just put self defense missiles in there with the nukes. Kinda like XB-70 but less silly of a rocket. MSDM looks like a fairly normal rocket so it can probably be dropped vertically out of a bay and not require finding space in a wing or fuselage structure per se.

I guess you could lose some of the in-wing fuel tankage if you really wanted that though.

Possibly, but you'd really prefer not to open the main bomb bay, with the RCS implications of that, while engaging an inbound missile.

 

[Josh_TN]

SHiELD isn't huge. It fits in a 610-gallon drop tank. A conformal stealthy solution would be a bit more intensive but not impossibly large.

Edit: Now that the caffeine has kicked in, possibly a defensive armament bay initially for small missiles, with the possibility of swapping for a hard-kill laser when available? Defensive missiles have been on the USAF wish list for a while and MSDM is supposed to be flying (for testing) next year.

I can't see anyone hanging anything off a B-2 and I wouldn't have thought they would reserve room for something that was so far down the road - was Shield even a program by the time the B-21's requirements were finalized? Having additional bomb bays for self defense weapons on the other hand seems like a possibility. I would wonder if perhaps there would be a pair of bays sized to the F-35 so you could leverage weapons compatibility.

 

[rooster]

One of the things I looked at involved external drop tanks on stealth platforms. In brief the drop tanks would mount underneath via a small door that closed and would let the platform become 100% stealthy again. But there is risk if the tank doesn't drop or the door doesn't close. Soooo external mounting of certain things isn't crazy on things like raiders or whatever. But then there are also drag penalties we know so well.....

 

[Rhinocrates]

Considering the silver finish on this recent NGAD concept by Lockheed and the fact that some F-22s, 35s, & 117s have been spotted trying out a reflective finish that is thought to improve IR stealth, I wouldn't be surprised to see it on the B-21.

F-35 And F-117 Spotted Flying With Mysterious Mirror-Like Skin

The Air Force's F-117 and the Navy's F-35C join the F-22 and the Model 401 as aircraft that have donned the mysterious metallic-looking coating.

www.thedrive.com

 

[quellish]

Considering the silver finish on this recent NGAD concept by Lockheed and the fact that some F-22s, 35s, & 117s have been spotted trying out a reflective finish that is thought to improve IR stealth, I wouldn't be surprised to see it on the B-21.

F-35 And F-117 Spotted Flying With Mysterious Mirror-Like Skin

The Air Force's F-117 and the Navy's F-35C join the F-22 and the Model 401 as aircraft that have donned the mysterious metallic-looking coating.

www.thedrive.com

Not in block 10.

 

[TomS]

SHiELD isn't huge. It fits in a 610-gallon drop tank. A conformal stealthy solution would be a bit more intensive but not impossibly large.

Edit: Now that the caffeine has kicked in, possibly a defensive armament bay initially for small missiles, with the possibility of swapping for a hard-kill laser when available? Defensive missiles have been on the USAF wish list for a while and MSDM is supposed to be flying (for testing) next year.

I can't see anyone hanging anything off a B-2 and I wouldn't have thought they would reserve room for something that was so far down the road - was Shield even a program by the time the B-21's requirements were finalized? Having additional bomb bays for self defense weapons on the other hand seems like a possibility. I would wonder if perhaps there would be a pair of bays sized to the F-35 so you could leverage weapons compatibility.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting actually hanging a pod, just using that as a sense of the volume required. It works out to ~80 cubic feet, which isn't trivial but could be manageable in an aircraft of this size.

 

[flateric]

AFAIR LRS-B was designed from the beginning with provisions for external sensors/weapons carriage so LO laser pod may be an option. Open architecture design likely means some internal volumes left for future upgrades in terms of self defense and EW - especially with a tendency for miniaturization.

 

[Fluff]

SHiELD isn't huge. It fits in a 610-gallon drop tank. A conformal stealthy solution would be a bit more intensive but not impossibly large.

Edit: Now that the caffeine has kicked in, possibly a defensive armament bay initially for small missiles, with the possibility of swapping for a hard-kill laser when available? Defensive missiles have been on the USAF wish list for a while and MSDM is supposed to be flying (for testing) next year.

I can't see anyone hanging anything off a B-2 and I wouldn't have thought they would reserve room for something that was so far down the road - was Shield even a program by the time the B-21's requirements were finalized? Having additional bomb bays for self defense weapons on the other hand seems like a possibility. I would wonder if perhaps there would be a pair of bays sized to the F-35 so you could leverage weapons compatibility.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting actually hanging a pod, just using that as a sense of the volume required. It works out to ~80 cubic feet, which isn't trivial but could be manageable in an aircraft of this size.

Shirley we talk about a conformal pod, similar to the non-stealth conformal tanks on the topside of F16's. I cant imagine that pod would be part of the IOC, but getting it cleared as an aerodynamic and weight, so different uses can be made later, even if just for more fuel, in some situations.

 

[Kat Tsun]

If it has a bomb bay like B-1 or anything, I suspect they'd just put self defense missiles in there with the nukes. Kinda like XB-70 but less silly of a rocket. MSDM looks like a fairly normal rocket so it can probably be dropped vertically out of a bay and not require finding space in a wing or fuselage structure per se.

I guess you could lose some of the in-wing fuel tankage if you really wanted that though.

Possibly, but you'd really prefer not to open the main bomb bay, with the RCS implications of that, while engaging an inbound missile.

If you're being engaged by a missile, doesn't it follow that a momentary RCS increase isn't going to increase your chances of being tracked? They're already tracking you well enough to secure a firing solution, after all.

 

[TomS]

If you're being engaged by a missile, doesn't it follow that a momentary RCS increase isn't going to increase your chances of being tracked? They're already tracking you well enough to secure a firing solution, after all.

Perhaps. But why kneecap your countermeasures right at the endgame?

The pictures of the Raytheon MSDM do show something with rail shoes, but I keep imagining a tube-launched missile with a piston that seals up the tube after launch.