Northrop goes early with 1-engined F-5?

tomo pauk

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... early meaning that it is made instead of the F-5E/F.
What engine to choose? The J85 was very light, a pair of them were barely above 600 kg. Perhaps soup-up the J52 ASAP, later jump on the F-404? The J65 perchance, it propelled the XF-104 to Mach 2?
 
When ? in 1956 for N156F ? 1961 for F-5A ? or 1969 for F-5E ? In the latter case: J101, the YF-17 engine. And then it becomes a proto-F-20-Tigershark.
 
I think the J85 was an important part of the F-5 success. Being a glorified supersonic trainer with only the minimum of its customers needs. J85 is simple and cheep. I’m not sure how many contemporary single engines are.
 
@tomo pauk Here’s an interesting list of engines that were considered for the BAe Hawk around the same timeframe (1968-70). I assume a reheat could have been added to most.

J85 was considered too thirsty. Not a lot of US alternatives available. From Europe, Adour might have been the best, but unlikely to be available given Jaguar production priority.

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4842/the-hawk-story.pdf (see pp. 9-11)
 

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I think the J85 was an important part of the F-5 success. Being a glorified supersonic trainer with only the minimum of its customers needs. J85 is simple and cheep. I’m not sure how many contemporary single engines are.
I would not call J85 cheap considering its atrocious fuel efficiency of 1.24 to 1.28 lbs per lbf per hour.

@tomo pauk Here’s an interesting list of engines that were considered for the BAe Hawk around the same timeframe (1968-70). I assume a reheat could have been added to most.

Not a lot of US options available. Adour might have been the best, but unlikely to be available given Jaguar production priority.

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4842/the-hawk-story.pdf (see pp. 9-11)
But there is always option of licensing which for example Japan acquired for their F1 and T2 jets.
 
So are we talking F-5E/F Tiger II and not N-156F/F-5A/B to be configured as single-engine?



Regards
Pioneer
 
@tomo pauk Here’s an interesting list of engines that were considered for the BAe Hawk around the same timeframe (1968-70). I assume a reheat could have been added to most.

J85 was considered too thirsty. Not a lot of US alternatives available. From Europe, Adour might have been the best, but unlikely to be available given Jaguar production priority.

Thank you for the list and pdf.
A single Adour, even with the reheat, will not add much to the table vs. two J85s. The RB.199 is the best, but I'm not sure about the availability in the early 1970s.
Any European engine has an uphill battle vs. the US engine for an F-5 that is to became single-engined.

So are we talking F-5E/F Tiger II and not N-156F/F-5A/B to be configured as single-engine?

F-5E is made as an 1-engined A/C.
 
M45-H seems the lowest s.f.c figures for a decent thrust-to-weight ratio.
 
Circa 1969 Sud Aviation in Toulouse takes a F-5E licence to try and piss-off no only Dassault, but also the Gaullists supporting him.
The engine they pick: M45G, orphan of the AFVG. At 5500 kg of thrust it should be more than able to replace the two J85 at 1800 - 2000 kg thrust each.

End result: a proto, French, F-20 Tigershark.
 
I think the J85 was an important part of the F-5 success. Being a glorified supersonic trainer with only the minimum of its customers needs. J85 is simple and cheep. I’m not sure how many contemporary single engines are.

I'd be hesitant to say as such since twin engines implies doubled maintenance work hours. No one had trouble operating massive quantities of F-104s or A-4 Skyhawks, after all, which had big engines of similar vintage. The J85 was probably just chosen because physically small engines were crummy back then and F-5 was a combatized form of T-38. Less the engine and more the plane picked.

F-5 was supersonic unlike the Skyhawk, and lacked the expensive radars and long range combat capability of the F-104, thus neatly fitting into a nice "day fighter" role that could do more than lug Bullpups around. Like intercept bombers.

The J52 was another good option as I think the T-38 itself competed with a Super Saber-based trainer, and the J52 was cheap enough to be disposable much like the J85, but I don't think the J52 actually existed at the time. But a J52 powered jet would be very different from the F-5 in layout. It might actually fit in a Super Saber though, or a supersonic Skyhawk.

J52 and J57 would both provide similar power to the F-5 over the dual J85 setup, which is all it really needs to do. They're also pretty cheap (enough that Argentina and Israel, both very poor countries at the time, had quite a few them) and J52 would be common with Skyhawk.

Maybe Israel would get super F-5 instead of Mirages who knows.
 
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I think the J85 was an important part of the F-5 success. Being a glorified supersonic trainer with only the minimum of its customers needs. J85 is simple and cheep. I’m not sure how many contemporary single engines are.

I'd be hesitant to say as such since twin engines implies doubled maintenance work hours. No one had trouble operating massive quantities of F-104s or A-4 Skyhawks, after all, which had big engines of similar vintage. The J85 was probably just chosen because physically small engines were crummy back then and F-5 was a combatized form of T-38. Less the engine and more the plane picked.

F-5 was supersonic unlike the Skyhawk, and lacked the expensive radars and long range combat capability of the F-104, thus neatly fitting into a nice "day fighter" role that could do more than lug Bullpups around. Like intercept bombers.

The J52 was another good option as I think the T-38 itself competed with a Super Saber-based trainer, and the J52 was cheap enough to be disposable much like the J85, but I don't think the J52 actually existed at the time. But a J52 powered jet would be very different from the F-5 in layout. It might actually fit in a Super Saber though, or a supersonic Skyhawk.

J52 and J57 would both provide similar power to the F-5 over the dual J85 setup, which is all it really needs to do. They're also pretty cheap (enough that Argentina and Israel, both very poor countries at the time, had quite a few them) and J52 would be common with Skyhawk.

Maybe Israel would get super F-5 instead of Mirages who knows.
J-52 would be my thinking as well and should be "available" post 1957; the Hound dog was deployed in 1960 and designed between '57 and '59. There is nothing stopping putting an A/B on it other than no one called for that application earlier than the JF-17.
 
An afterburning J52 would be J57 I think, but F-5 probably doesn't need an afterburner at the end of the day as Hound Dog was supersonic.

It might want one to fight MiG-21 but that's why F-20 was made in the first place I guess.
 
J52 was scaled down from J57. It could have had a scaled down version of the J57 afterburner.
or given the diameter an adapted version of the AB on the J-65.. either way it would be about the size of a J-65, except this one would not SUCK!

Taking a look at it by dividing the wet thrust by the dry thrust to give an idea of how much the AB boosts things... using either of the options gets you about the same 11k wet thrust on the first model of J-52.. if that stays constant over the run then the final 409 model will give you 12k dry and over 17k wet. So very J-79 like performance with a wee bit better SFC and possibly more reliable, no clue if it would be lighter or not.
 
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M45-H seems the lowest s.f.c figures for a decent thrust-to-weight ratio.
Also need to think about physical size of the engine. The higher BPR makes it both big and the intake duct big.

Whereas say RB.199 is not that much bigger than Adour when you consider the accessories too.
 
J52 was scaled down from J57. It could have had a scaled down version of the J57 afterburner.
or given the diameter an adapted version of the AB on the J-65.. either way it would be about the size of a J-65, except this one would not SUCK!

Taking a look at it by dividing the wet thrust by the dry thrust to give an idea of how much the AB boosts things... using either of the options gets you about the same 11k wet thrust on the first model of J-52.. if that stays constant over the run then the final 409 model will give you 12k dry and over 17k wet. So very J-79 like performance with a wee bit better SFC and possibly more reliable, no clue if it would be lighter or not.
I have always been amazed an afterburning J-52 never saw the light of day. I guess by that time, turbofans were a thing.
Still, it had a very good pr, SFC, and was compact for the power it produced. It ended up with a better SFC and PR than the J-79, and arguably could have produced as much thrust in a lighter, more compact package.
 
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J52 was scaled down from J57. It could have had a scaled down version of the J57 afterburner.
or given the diameter an adapted version of the AB on the J-65.. either way it would be about the size of a J-65, except this one would not SUCK!

Taking a look at it by dividing the wet thrust by the dry thrust to give an idea of how much the AB boosts things... using either of the options gets you about the same 11k wet thrust on the first model of J-52.. if that stays constant over the run then the final 409 model will give you 12k dry and over 17k wet. So very J-79 like performance with a wee bit better SFC and possibly more reliable, no clue if it would be lighter or not.
I have always been amazed an afterburning J-52 never saw the light of day. I guess by that time, turbofans were a thing.
Still, it had a very good pr, SFC, and was compact for the power it produced. It ended up with a better SFC and PR than the J-79, and arguably could have produced as much thrust in a lighter, more compact package.
Well it was further developed into turbofan and Swedes jammed it in a fighter jet.
 
J52 was scaled down from J57. It could have had a scaled down version of the J57 afterburner.
or given the diameter an adapted version of the AB on the J-65.. either way it would be about the size of a J-65, except this one would not SUCK!

Taking a look at it by dividing the wet thrust by the dry thrust to give an idea of how much the AB boosts things... using either of the options gets you about the same 11k wet thrust on the first model of J-52.. if that stays constant over the run then the final 409 model will give you 12k dry and over 17k wet. So very J-79 like performance with a wee bit better SFC and possibly more reliable, no clue if it would be lighter or not.
I have always been amazed an afterburning J-52 never saw the light of day. I guess by that time, turbofans were a thing.
Still, it had a very good pr, SFC, and was compact for the power it produced. It ended up with a better SFC and PR than the J-79, and arguably could have produced as much thrust in a lighter, more compact package.
it would have been a perfect thing for P&W to offer as an alternative/swappable for GE's J-79.

How many AH's have we all seen where something like "but you would have to fight for/divert production from X,Y or Z? IN this case it would be J-79 production in the early 60's.
 
How many AH's have we all seen where something like "but you would have to fight for/divert production from X,Y or Z? IN this case it would be J-79 production in the early 60's.

What if the USN busted J79 capability with too many (superb) aircraft ? Vigilante and Phantom and the losers: Super Tiger and Skylancer. AB J-52 for these two would help against the Skyhawk "anti snoopers" for small navies and small carriers.
 
AB J52 for the blursed supersonic Skyhawk.

Argentina would still lose I think.
 
A Single Engine F-5 in begin of program would be interesting in long term.
Northrop could bug out the F-5 and adapt it for YF-17 prototype (analog to F-20)
With a F-17 going into productions mid 1970s in USA and Europe

Now This give new question what will be build as F/A-18 ?
Since Navy insist on two engines Aircraft, a Super F-14?
 
A Single Engine F-5 in begin of program would be interesting in long term.
Northrop could bug out the F-5 and adapt it for YF-17 prototype (analog to F-20)
With a F-17 going into productions mid 1970s in USA and Europe

Now This give new question what will be build as F/A-18 ?
Since Navy insist on two engines Aircraft, a Super F-14?

Navy gets the F-18, that is a scaled-up F-5A?
 
I would probably start from the N-156F, ok let them use two engines in the T-38, but use the J-65 with AB in the YF-5A prototype, and by the time production is underway in 1962-1963 (probably called C/D) they should be able to use the J-52 with AB of something like what 5000-5500kgf. For the F-5E an improved uprated J-52 of say 6000-6500kgf, then switching to the YJ-101 or F404 when they are available (an earlier F-20 in effect, in OTL it was way too late).

The OTL F-5 was too lame compared to it's contemporaries J-35, Mirage-III, MiG-21 etc. because of the weak engines.
 
A Single Engine F-5 in begin of program would be interesting in long term.
Northrop could bug out the F-5 and adapt it for YF-17 prototype (analog to F-20)
With a F-17 going into productions mid 1970s in USA and Europe

Now This give new question what will be build as F/A-18 ?
Since Navy insist on two engines Aircraft, a Super F-14?

Navy gets the F-18, that is a scaled-up F-5A?
yes F-18 is scaled up F-5a the twin engine version
but this is about a single engine F-5 and US Navy not wanted single engine aircraft in time the F-18 was build.
and since in this Alternate history F-5 has one big engine like F-20, the US Navy need another aircraft...
 
Northrop was already working on the YF-17 lineage when the F-5E program came along. All they would have to do is decide to simply use one of the engines for the 'not yet YF-17' to get a big performance boost in the new F-5E model. I think the simplest for the OP's timeline is the YJ-101, which pretty much gives you an F-20 with more primitive avionics a decade earlier.

Which would actually make the F-5G/F-20 more viable around 1980, since it would be an avionics upgrade and engine swap rather than a redesign. They could both sell new aircraft and upgrade older, single J101 engined ones.
 
yes F-18 is scaled up F-5a the twin engine version
but this is about a single engine F-5 and US Navy not wanted single engine aircraft in time the F-18 was build.
and since in this Alternate history F-5 has one big engine like F-20, the US Navy need another aircraft...

They get the F-18, a twin-engined multi-role aircraft.
 
The J52 was another good option as I think the T-38 itself competed with a Super Saber-based trainer, and the J52 was cheap enough to be disposable much like the J85, but I don't think the J52 actually existed at the time. But a J52 powered jet would be very different from the F-5 in layout. It might actually fit in a Super Saber though, or a supersonic Skyhawk.
J-52 would be my thinking as well and should be "available" post 1957; the Hound dog was deployed in 1960 and designed between '57 and '59. There is nothing stopping putting an A/B on it other than no one called for that application earlier than the JF-17.
I have always been amazed an afterburning J-52 never saw the light of day. I guess by that time, turbofans were a thing.
Still, it had a very good pr, SFC, and was compact for the power it produced. It ended up with a better SFC and PR than the J-79, and arguably could have produced as much thrust in a lighter, more compact package.

An afterburning variant of the Pratt & Whitney J52 turbojet is the PW1216 which was proposed as one of several powerplant options for the cancelled US-Pakistan Grumman Project Sabre II.
 
Since this is 1968, I'd assume taking the YJ101 engine that became the F404. Basically making the Tigershark 10 years sooner.
 
Since this is 1968, I'd assume taking the YJ101 engine that became the F404. Basically making the Tigershark 10 years sooner.
It wasn't ready in 1968. That was the start of development not the end.

Prototype YJ101
Program Initiated 1970
Core Engine to Test 3/72
First Engine to Test 7/72
Mock-up Engine Shipped 7/72
Altitude Test Engine Shipped 6/73
Prototype PERT Complete 12/73
First Flight Engine Shipped 12/73
First Aircraft Flight 6/74
 
It wasn't ready in 1968. That was the start of development not the end.

Prototype YJ101
Program Initiated 1970
Core Engine to Test 3/72
First Engine to Test 7/72
Mock-up Engine Shipped 7/72
Altitude Test Engine Shipped 6/73
Prototype PERT Complete 12/73
First Flight Engine Shipped 12/73
First Aircraft Flight 6/74
Well, bugger.

Okay, afterburning J52 in the "single engine F-5E/F". If people buy lots of those, then you can look at swapping the J52 with the F404 for some F-5G/Hs among everyone who bought the F-5E/Fs in the mid 1980s.
 
You may be on to something. A single J52 aircraft that succeeded would have likely made the twin J52 an attractive option on an operational level. Imagine an A-4 progressing to two J52s on the lighter carriers to compliment the A-6 on larger carriers. Both sets of pilots cycle through J52 powered trainers. J57 was attractive because of its ability to be sustained with lighter equipment. While bigger engines are generally more efficient, the big engines do not always bode well in compact environments. This is what made F124 powered trainers so attractive.
 
J85 was fuel hungry but *lightweight*
J52 with afterburner would be more fuel efficient but heavier.

For a strike aircraft, J52 makes sense - longer range is worth some extra weight.
For a short-range air-to-air fighter, the extra weight might not repay itself in reduced fuel burn at cruise.
 
I know you wanted single-engine... but some friends and I worked up a F-5E with the turbofan version of the J85.

The TF37 (an aft-fan design) was a little smaller in diameter than the F404, and "only" put out 4,500 lb thrust without an afterburner - that's 200lb better than the best F-5A/B J85 (the CF-5s) IN afterburner, and only 500 lb less than the F-5E's IN afterburner.

Add an afterburner on the TF37 and you'll get around 7,300 lb in afterburner each.

Or try the GE-1 engine*, which might be better - two of those will put out just under one F404-GE-400.

Either way you'd basically get a better F-5E or smaller F-17 - but still twin-engined.


J85-GE-13 (F-5A/B): thrust 2,720 (4,030 a/b); weight 597 lb; length 104.6"; diameter 17.7" engine body, 21" a/b module; SFC 1.03 (2.22 a/b)
J85-GE-15 (CF-5A/B): thrust 2,720 (4,300 a/b); weight 615 lb; length 104.6"; diameter 17.7" engine body, 21" a/b module; SFC 1.03 (2.18 a/b)
J85-GE-21 (F-5E/F): thrust 3,500 (5,000 a/b); weight 675 lb; length 112.5"; diameter 21" engine body, 21" a/b module; SFC 1.00 (2.13 a/b)

TF37-GE-2D (Falcon 20): thrust 4,500 (est. 7,000 a/b); weight 737 lb no a/b; length 75.5" no a/b; diameter 33" engine body, ?" a/b module; SFC .652 (? a/b)

GE-1 [J1A1](Northrop N-300, 1965): thrust 5,500 (7,500 a/b); length 140"; weight ~1,000 lb; length 140"; diameter 24" engine body, ?" a/b module; SFC .70 (1.98 a/b (this is a turbojet, and was developed into the J101 then into the F404 & F414)

J101-GE-XX (YF-17): thrust 9,250 (14,300 a/b); weight 1,804 lb; length 139"; diameter 32.6" engine body, 32.6" a/b module; SFC .785 (1.88) (this is a turbojet with .25% bypass ratio)

F404-GE-400 (F/A-18A/B): thrust 10,800 (16,000 a/b); weight 2,180 lb; length 159"; diameter 35" engine body, 35" a/b module; SFC .80 (1.75 a/b) (this is a turbofan with .33% bypass ratio)
 
The J52 would've been interesting as a parallel project with the F-5E given the evolution of the J52 timeline and it's compact size, weight, and fuel efficiency for its time. Thrust to weight ratio isn't nearly as good as the J85, or the J101 (or later F404), but it's better than pretty much all contemporary western turbojets, especially in that fuel efficiency class. It was compact enough that it probably could've been incorporated into something along the lines of the F-20, but roughly a decade earlier and obviously without as advanced electronics. (developing an appropriate afterburner for it would've been a significant aspect of such a project, though) Based on the afterburning thrust ranges achieved with the various types used on the J57, there should be substantial potential there if a scaled-down version of those were used. (derivatives of the GE J79's afterburners might have been considered too, or Northrop might invest in developing their own custom suited to the airframe)

Based on the dates given in Joe Baughers articles on the A-4 Skyhawk:

and technical data given here:

J52-P-6A
8500 lbf thrust,
.82 lb/lbf/hr,
30.2" diameter,
2056 lb dry weight
Flown on first production A4D-5 (A-4E) July 12, 1961

J52-P-8A
9300 lbf thrust,
.86 lb/lbf/hr
30.2" diameter
2118 lb dry weight
First flown on TA-4E (later redesignated TA-4F) June 30, 1965

J52-P-408
11,200 lbf thrust
.79 lb/lbf/hr
32.1" diameter
118.9" length
2318 lb dry weight
First flown on A-4M April 10, 1970

The 12,000 lbf J52-P409 was later available as an upgrade kit to the -408 model and had better engine acceleration in addition to the increased thrust. (I don't have data on the weight difference, but it may have been quite similar to the -408)


Compare that to the F404-GE-100D of the A-4S Super Skyhawk (the F-20 used the F404-GE-100, so the -100D version may very well be basically the same engine without afterburner).

F404-GE-100D
11,000 lbf thrust
.8 lb/lbf/hr
34.7" diameter
89" length
1820 lb dry weight

Quotes for SFC on most other F404 models are usually over .8 lb/lbf/hr, though. (perhaps due to the

If there was any cost advantage (including maintenance) of the J52 over the F404, or it worked around certain restrictions/prohibitions on exported equipment, the J52 seems like a viable alternative to the F404 in several applications, if a comparable afterburner was fitted.

That may have been a consideration of the YF-17 as a potential export design, or on the F-18L. (though it seems like it would've been a better idea to develop such an export derivative in parallel with the F-18, and would have been most relevant as an export prospect prior to the F-18's adoption by the USMC and USN, given the timeline on export restrictions and the F-16 being blocked)

Foreign buyers already operating A-4 variants might have been more interested in parts and maintenance compatibility of the J52 as well. (presumably there also would've been some cost advantage over the J101 and F404 due to it being an older design with existing volume production, with the afterburner being the only new component to it)

Likewise, that should've been a very real consideration during the design of the F-20 itself, as that came during the prohibition on certain cutting-edge strategic technology in the wake of the problems with Iran and implementation of the Export Administration Act of 1979. (with ban on advanced technologies implemented in 1980) The choice of radar may have still been a limiting factor there, but it would at least avoid issues of engine choice. The F-17 with export-approved engines would've been a better option for buyers interested in something in the F-16's price range during its export prohibition. (though there are other advantages of the F-17 over the F-16 design, particularly if operating costs ended up similarly favorable to the F-18, though engine choice may have been part of that)

Planned use as an alternate powerplant during airframe development would obviously have been more useful than adapting it after the fact. (though in the case of the F-5, a redesign of the airframe at least as extensive as the F-20 would likely be needed, since it was a pre-existing aircraft)
 
but F-5 probably doesn't need an afterburner at the end of the day as Hound Dog was supersonic.
That was achieved by overspeeding that variant, IIRC. They certainly didn't care about having more than about 5 hours total engine life in the Hound Dog.

Whereas the variant in the Skyhawk needed to hold together for several hundred hours.
 
If there was any cost advantage (including maintenance) of the J52 over the F404, or it worked around certain restrictions/prohibitions on exported equipment, the J52 seems like a viable alternative to the F404 in several applications, if a comparable afterburner was fitted.

The F404 was a lot less maintenance-needy than the J52 (something like 2-3 times the running hours between planned maintenance procedures and at least twice the "mean time between failures"), had far fewer parts (making for shorter work-times for identical procedures & repairs), and had a much faster throttle-response - all positives for a fighter.
 
Fun fact I learned from another thread: if you want an afterburner for the J52, ask SAAB. The Viggen engine was a civilian J52 developped for airliners, to which they added an afterburner (that's how I remember the whole story, I could be wrong).

I'm still rooting for Sud Aviation F-5s salvaging the M45 out of the AFVG boondoggle (from Liébert & Buyck stupendous Mirage F1 monography).

Capture d’écran 2025-04-08 100946.jpg


General characteristics​

  • Type: afterburning turbojet engine
  • Length: 112.5 in (286 cm)
  • Diameter: 20.8 in (53 cm) inlet
  • Dry weight: 684 lb (310 kg)

Performance​

  • Maximum thrust: 3,600 lbf (16 kN) dry thrust / 5,000 lbf (22 kN) afterburner thrust
  • Overall pressure ratio: 8.3:1 (J85-21 A~C model)
  • Air mass flow: 53 lb (24 kg) per second
  • Turbine inlet temperature: 1,790 °F (980 °C)
  • Specific fuel consumption: 1.24 lb/(lbf⋅h) or 35 g/(kN⋅s) dry thrust / 2.13 lb/(lbf⋅h) or 60 g/(kN⋅s) afterburner thrust
  • Thrust-to-weight ratio: 5.25 dry / 7.3 afterburner

One can see that one M45G1 has more thrust (5400 kg) than a F-5E pair of J85 (4500 kg).
 
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