Northrop F-18L History - you can design a better mouse trap but...

I fully agree the tip back requirement was/is a valid one. In my own dealings with government requirements, it isn't always the requirement itself I take issue with. It's the way new requirements pop up because the solution offered, while compliant with the original requirement, is a nontraditional/unexpected one and the customer has a bad case of that-isn't-what-I-had-in-mind.

Why, it'd be like an arresting hook that couldn't catch a wire!
cheesy.gif
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Careful sir, you might upset the natives.
This could jeopardize the whole thing, so they really needed to be convinced. They were Washingtonians, after all. They would have been excoriated for approving such a "radical and desperate" idea. Remember, back there it's more important not to be wrong than it is to be right..
Indeed.
 
Model of Northrop F/A-18L Cobra in Israeli Air Force marking found on eBay.

URL:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORTHROP-F-A-18L-COBRA-IDF-IAFCOLLECTOR-MUSEUM-MODEL-1-60-SCALE-COMPANY-MADE-/280909078469?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41677c5fc5
 

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Thank you Mark, there's a lot of good info there. ;D
 
Looks like the drawing shows the F-18L having a reduced diameter APG-65 antenna which allows the radar to be moved forward.
 
I assume that the third from the front is meant to be New Zealand? Obviously the artist had no idea what a Kiwi actually looks like...

The last two have no markings that I can discern. Hopeful thinking? I think the idea that the RAF might be interested is merely fantasy.
 
Kadija_Man said:
I assume that the third from the front is meant to be New Zealand? Obviously the artist had no idea what a Kiwi actually looks like...
Looks more like a kangaroo to me, so we can assume it's meant to be Australian, incidentally one of the users of the F-18, like Spain and Canada, also represented in the drawing.
 
CostasTT said:
Kadija_Man said:
I assume that the third from the front is meant to be New Zealand? Obviously the artist had no idea what a Kiwi actually looks like...
Looks more like a kangaroo to me, so we can assume it's meant to be Australian, incidentally one of the users of the F-18, like Spain and Canada, also represented in the drawing.

Is that what it's meant to be? Looks even less like one of them... :eek:
 
It looks like a dinosaur to me. On the other hand, neither a land mammal nor a bird that can't fly makes a lot of sense as an air force emblem either.

I think the APG-65 was full-size - that was the big selling point and the reason that GD mocked-up an F-16 with an APG-65 nose. The CW illuminator mentioned in the brochure would have been needed for AIM-7s, but NTP was apparently of the view that not everyone would want them.
 
LowObservable said:
It looks like a dinosaur to me. On the other hand, neither a land mammal nor a bird that can't fly makes a lot of sense as an air force emblem either.

I think the APG-65 was full-size - that was the big selling point and the reason that GD mocked-up an F-16 with an APG-65 nose. The CW illuminator mentioned in the brochure would have been needed for AIM-7s, but NTP was apparently of the view that not everyone would want them.

Got a picture of that F-16 in an old book. Reminds me of an F-4's nose.
 
LowObservable said:
It looks like a dinosaur to me. On the other hand, neither a land mammal nor a bird that can't fly makes a lot of sense as an air force emblem either.

The choice of the symbols by the Commonwealth air forces to replace the British red dot in their roundels have actually been very appropriately symbolic.

Both South Africa (Springbok) and Australia (Red Kangaroo) chose land mammals famous for the glorious ability to leap high into the air and return to land gracefully. And once applied to their aircraft both air forces have displayed similar ability and retain the potential to once again leap skywards. Just the Kangaroo with less natural predators than the Springbok has survived without as many bite holes.

Rhodesia chose some spears which looked to be held by the British red dot. Eventually Britain and others would stick those spears into Rhodesia…

The Canadians chose a leaf that starts off high up in the sky on a tree and then breaks free flying gracefully and majestically but eventually crashing into the ground where by chance a gust of wind may briefly make it airborne again for a few minutes before inevitably at some date in the future it will be piled up as mulch never to fly again. Which could be a description of the decline of the RCAF from the high of the 1950s, the lost potential of the Arrow through to the decline and service abolishment of the 60s and their current precarious situation.

New Zealand chose a bird that through natural Darwinian evolution lost its ability to fly until it was reduced to grovelling around in the undergrowth to survive. Which is a more than accurate description of the post war decline of the RNZAF.

BTW Northrop have a tradition of stuffing up the RAAF roundel on their promotional material. They managed to have the Kangaroos pointing in the wrong direction in all six roundels on a BAMS Global Hawk model and poster they produced a few years ago.
 
Dug through another box that I thought contained only text books but found this nice F-18L brochure. It is an odd size - 10" X10" so does not fit my scanner well and I had to shoot some pages in two parts. The page count exceeds Paul's limit so it may take a couple of posts.

BillRo
 

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Abraham Gubler said:
The choice of the symbols by the Commonwealth air forces to replace the British red dot in their roundels have actually been very appropriately symbolic.

Please excuse the thread drift. ;)

All very poetic, but I think the main point in each case was that the symbol chosen represented the whole nation, long before they had air forces. The use of the maple leaf, for example, extends back before the official formation of the country to badges and flags of British Army units raised in what would become Canada.
 
Bill Walker said:
All very poetic, but I think the main point in each case was that the symbol chosen represented the whole nation, long before they had air forces. The use of the maple leaf, for example, extends back before the official formation of the country to badges and flags of British Army units raised in what would become Canada.

That post was never meant to be an explanation of why those symbols were chosen or even non-fiction for that matter!
 
When did Northrop stop marketing the F-18L? It was still the frontrunner in the Greek competition as late as 1983-84 (see here http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982%20-%201927.html?search=Greece and there are also several Greek sources to the same effect all the way to the time of Mirage 2000 and F-16C being chosen)

Assuming the aircraft was chosen by Greece or anyone else would the customer have had to take up additional development costs for it? I have seen mention that it was hoped the shah would foot a development bill in the order of a billion in the late 1970s for F-18L to become operational, but I see no mention to it in either the Greek nor the Canadian competition...
 
From my records, I suspect that Northrop stopped marketing the F-18L in 1984 and it was finally killed when the Northrop/McAir lawsuit was settled. By 1985 the F-18L design group had evolved into the white world Advanced Design organization.

BillRo
 
ikke666 said:
Can someone put the images of billro in a pdf? ::)

I put them all in a single pdf, but it's a bit too big for attaching (5+ MB). If Bill don't mind, I can send it
via email.
 
Go right ahead Jemiba - my goal is to get contemporary information out there before it is lost.

BillRo
 
BillRo said:
Here is a pic I found of the F-18L for Turkey - a heavily retouched F/A-18A image.

is the diagonal defect on the picture posted by BillRo just a defect ? And not a proposal about multishock inlets ?
 
r16 said:
BillRo said:
Here is a pic I found of the F-18L for Turkey - a heavily retouched F/A-18A image.

is the diagonal defect on the picture posted by BillRo just a defect ? And not a proposal about multishock inlets ?
Its clearly a defect in the paper - a crease or tear.
 
It was the first time I'd ever seen the all gray photo (with HAF markings), so I did a search by image on google. The results were all about the French F-18 connection.
 
Yes, my scan was from an original that was on matt, highly textured paper.
 
1/20 Scale F18L model

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Factory-Large-Prototype-Northrop-F-18L-Cobra-Model-Not-McDonnell-Douglas/272392865321?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D39240%26meid%3Dd4a144b58a6d433e8ac7f76c4e2dcd44%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D191981545708
 

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SL,

Maximum internal fuel weight, with a dry wing was about that. Though if you check the specs out, up the page, you will see standard F/A-18 10,800lbs. This is the big problem for me. You pull the fuel or you don't have a 1.2:1 T/Wr which is necessary, not just to trounce the period F-16 (1.15 headed for 1.09 with the centerline) in sustained turn rate but also to get a Mach sprint which will take the aircraft to 1.2 in under 40 seconds needed for best AIM-7 pole performance.

This in turn is critical (as the illustration of 500lb class Sparrows on the wingtips) because the F-16 did not have -any- BVR capability at the time and would not until 1986 or so and the Egyptian F-16CG purchase. Despite mounting AIM-7s underwing and on the MLG doors, the F-16 was simply too small to be a capable BVR platform, both for radar and for sustained EM capabilities with assymetric loads.

You go down to 7,700lbs on the F-18L and you can get this kind of performance, clean. However you now have F-16 (7,200lbs) internal fuel problems for which carrying F-15 class EFT (4,000lb vs. 2,150 for the 330s on the naval Hornet) is your sole rescue from fuel starvation. You're not going to be taking those tanks above the Mach and the F-18L is too short stanced to clear a 600 gallon tank under the belly which means you are still talking 7+8 = 15,000lbs of fuel which is _exactly_ the same 10,800 + 4,300 class as the original F/A-18 with much more parasitics/tunnel drag from the large external loads depicted.

When it comes to understanding the tactical, doctrinal, dynamic; a lot of people mistake the notion of radius for speed. In OEF, the USN were flying up to 1,200nm radius but they were doing it at .76 or lower, hanging on their wings. In SEA, this figure was often less than 120nm, simply because the VPAF did not want to tackle a full up CVBG in the gulf of Tonkin. The landbased fighter often has more realistic <500nm radii (the USAF came a lot further out of Thailand and went a lot deeper into RPV/VI) and compensates by staging tanker orbits halfway inbetween.

What this buys them is a MUCH longer period of 500-550 knot ingress with minimum burner and very fast target egress in particular, before outside threats can arrive from more directions than a conventional BARCAP or SEAD effort can manage.

This is where a straight winged fighter is going to suffer, you are talking about a .85+ Mach capability with a large fuel and ordnance load and without a lot of the nice to haves like internal jammers that give back a pylon to Squiddy jets.

If there is a critical flaw in the F-18Ls design, from a USAF perspective, it is this critical ability to sustain the high subsonic Mach point for the last 50-100nm into the target area, tap the burner to sprint into the QRAs cutoff vector, exiting the baselane, and stuff them up with either a snapup to GIW kill from low level or a face pass/pump on sparrow shot.

Does this matter? Well, IMO, the F-16 is the biggest waste of cut metal 'inventory for inventories sake' since the F-104 /as NATO a swing fighter/ (does great in the CAVU Israeli's hands). Because it was all or nothing dedicated to the AIM-120 as a 350lb MRM capability which not only mean we were cheating ourselves of 200lbs of motor pour on jets like the F-14/15/18 which could take the weight without going assymetric but also because the lag from 1984 to 1986 to 1991 as we did the whole hybrids-become-MMIC trick mean that the jet was essentially unable to match the intercept geometry setting leverage of fast SARH platforms like the MiG-23 using stinger tactics with the APG-59 equivalent Sapfir. And was completely outclassed by the MiG-29 and Su-27 in a wall of bear condition.

You simply _cannot_ bring a heatshot fighter to cloudy-rainy-snowy Northern Europe and expect anything but embarrassment.

You cannot even properly do the MFFC off an Eagle to swing them in around the threat sensor cones because JTIDS, as usual, evolved from an advanced IFDL to an all-dancing, broad area, networking system which was both too heavy for the F-16 in the initial Type II terminal and too expensive overall to reach more than a few Tyndall Eagles.

The F-18L could have changed all this, had Congress properly stood up on it's hind legs and told the children of the USN: "NO! Pick one and share or put it back on the shelf!" while at the same time cancelling the F-14 after the Iranian debacle compromised Phoenix, completely. The USN could not afford to lose all Sparrow capability as an OAB FADF, even if they hadn't had enough of the A-7/F-8 narrow track gear nonsense.

That means the USAF _will_ pickup the YF-17 as their LWF low end and now you have 120 Eagles and 300 Hornets in the landbased role play DCA games with instead of 500, utterly worthless, (no LANTIRN, no ASPJ, no SINCGARS, no AMRAAM) F-16s which would not even -begin- to approach their MSIP normed full capabilities until long after the Window Of Vulnerability had closed in the 1985-86 period.

Good Enough is The Friend of Have Enough in that if you tailor your force around what you KNOW technology can do, _today_, you have the option to push a force construct which gives you a mix of SARH+EM to supplement either the BVR or ALASCA heat shot engagement scenario.

An F-18L with F/A-18A wing fuel, four Sparrows and two or three 330s gives you that leverage because your base internal fraction is high enough to support the Centfront DCA mission in USAFE while still giving you recovery gas when you drop the tanks to go super for a 25 second midrange the SARH shot _by sprinting early_ (as opposed to an iffier 40-60 second, extended range, equivalent). Energy in terminals always beats extended range in the European environment, if only because you just don't have the time to stay committed with WARPAC level GBAD advancing steadily across the North European Plain and so many outside shooters apt to enter the A2A environment at any moment as well.

When you only have a single F-15 squadron at CNA and a sub strength wing at Bitburg, your 'swing' fighter has to be able to win either the sniper or the boot knife fight. And the Hornet could do that as the F-16 could not.
 
I don't know where you got the idea that the F-18's trapezoidal wing is a bad design for M=.85. In fact, it's the ideal design for the transonic regime. You should also note that the YF-17 was aerodynamically optimized for minimum drag at it's maximum turn rate at M=1.2
 

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