Next Chinese aircraft carrier - Type 002 'Shandong' and Type 003 'Fujian'

helmutkohl said:
^ assuming those dark lines are where the catapults will be

is it me or is the starboard side catapult look really close to the edge?
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You are not alone helmutkohl, I thought that myself that the starboard catapults were way too close to the edge. Perhaps Deino will help with this issue.
 
FighterJock said:
helmutkohl said:
^ assuming those dark lines are where the catapults will be

is it me or is the starboard side catapult look really close to the edge?
Click to expand...

You are not alone helmutkohl, I thought that myself that the starboard catapults were way too close to the edge. Perhaps Deino will help with this issue.
Click to expand...
Perhaps we are mistaking catapult support structures for the catapults themselves? The actual catapult tracks could be attached to, and inboard of these structures a bit.
 
FighterJock said:
helmutkohl said:
^ assuming those dark lines are where the catapults will be

is it me or is the starboard side catapult look really close to the edge?
Click to expand...

You are not alone helmutkohl, I thought that myself that the starboard catapults were way too close to the edge. Perhaps Deino will help with this issue.
Click to expand...

Ford class is the same IMO,

CVN-78-photo-062.jpg
 
starviking said:
FighterJock said:
helmutkohl said:
^ assuming those dark lines are where the catapults will be

is it me or is the starboard side catapult look really close to the edge?
Click to expand...

You are not alone helmutkohl, I thought that myself that the starboard catapults were way too close to the edge. Perhaps Deino will help with this issue.
Click to expand...
Perhaps we are mistaking catapult support structures for the catapults themselves? The actual catapult tracks could be attached to, and inboard of these structures a bit.
Click to expand...

That is maybe where we are getting rather confused with the layout of the starboard catapult, it is the support structures that the catapults are attached to, thanks starviking.
 
FighterJock said:
starviking said:
FighterJock said:
helmutkohl said:
^ assuming those dark lines are where the catapults will be

is it me or is the starboard side catapult look really close to the edge?
Click to expand...

You are not alone helmutkohl, I thought that myself that the starboard catapults were way too close to the edge. Perhaps Deino will help with this issue.
Click to expand...
Perhaps we are mistaking catapult support structures for the catapults themselves? The actual catapult tracks could be attached to, and inboard of these structures a bit.
Click to expand...

That is maybe where we are getting rather confused with the layout of the starboard catapult, it is the support structures that the catapults are attached to, thanks starviking.
Click to expand...
No problem, though I may be completely wrong ;)
 
Archibald said:
A thought for the brave people risking their freedom or lives to exfiltrate those pictures...
Any idea if it is a risked business, or on the contrary: merely tolerated / controlled / allowed to leak / by the Chinese government as a way of scaring the world - kind of ?
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most of the pics are either taken from afar or from commercial flights by local enthusiasts. No one is risking their lives when taking these pictures.
 
Except that one phone camera-wielding steelworker who uploaded images to TikTok.


I still can't get my head round that! A Chinese-made tool of spyware, which allows idiotic dancing videos to proliferate, thus making today's youth look shameful, as well as allowing lies, stupidity, dangerous myths and plain and simple PRC propaganda to be accessed in real time to many of today's teenagers, most of whom are incredibly ignorant and can't think for themselves (because they use TikTok....), was used by a steelworker to post high resolution pics of potentially sensitive visual information that the government of the PRC was trying not to have leaked!

(For those who want a simpler version of my TikTok rant, it is essentially Facebook, but for teenagers. Replace Mark Zuckerberg stealing your data with the PRC, and the 40 year-old soccer moms posting minions with scantily dressed teenagers. Apart from those they are eerily similar.)

Anyway, that ends my rant there, I fear I got a little sidetracked. Speaking of photos, have there been any more photos that have been revealed?
 
And in french, "toc-toc" means dumb / whacky / nut /crazy - altogether.

Why ? sometimes one picture is worth a lot of words...

91706-full.png


"Ces romains, ils sont toc-toc, Astérix !"

I can really see a young gallic mentionning Tik Tok to Astérix, and Obélix reacting this way.
"Tik tok "

"Quoi ?

"Rooh, moi ces jeunes, je les comprends plus ! C'est ce truc là, Tik Tok - ça les rends toc-toc, Astérix ! Ils sont fous ces jeunes gaulois."
 
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Wyvern said:
Except that one phone camera-wielding steelworker who uploaded images to TikTok.


I still can't get my head round that! A Chinese-made tool of spyware, which allows idiotic dancing videos to proliferate, thus making today's youth look shameful, as well as allowing lies, stupidity, dangerous myths and plain and simple PRC propaganda to be accessed in real time to many of today's teenagers, most of whom are incredibly ignorant and can't think for themselves (because they use TikTok....), was used by a steelworker to post high resolution pics of potentially sensitive visual information that the government of the PRC was trying not to have leaked!

(For those who want a simpler version of my TikTok rant, it is essentially Facebook, but for teenagers. Replace Mark Zuckerberg stealing your data with the PRC, and the 40 year-old soccer moms posting minions with scantily dressed teenagers. Apart from those they are eerily similar.)

Anyway, that ends my rant there, I fear I got a little sidetracked. Speaking of photos, have there been any more photos that have been revealed?
Click to expand...
297.jpg
 
Bounce said:
Wyvern said:
Except that one phone camera-wielding steelworker who uploaded images to TikTok.


I still can't get my head round that! A Chinese-made tool of spyware, which allows idiotic dancing videos to proliferate, thus making today's youth look shameful, as well as allowing lies, stupidity, dangerous myths and plain and simple PRC propaganda to be accessed in real time to many of today's teenagers, most of whom are incredibly ignorant and can't think for themselves (because they use TikTok....), was used by a steelworker to post high resolution pics of potentially sensitive visual information that the government of the PRC was trying not to have leaked!

(For those who want a simpler version of my TikTok rant, it is essentially Facebook, but for teenagers. Replace Mark Zuckerberg stealing your data with the PRC, and the 40 year-old soccer moms posting minions with scantily dressed teenagers. Apart from those they are eerily similar.)

Anyway, that ends my rant there, I fear I got a little sidetracked. Speaking of photos, have there been any more photos that have been revealed?
Click to expand...
View attachment 662106
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Not really. In fact, not at all.
 
Wyvern said:
Except that one phone camera-wielding steelworker who uploaded images to TikTok.


I still can't get my head round that! A Chinese-made tool of spyware, which allows idiotic dancing videos to proliferate, thus making today's youth look shameful, as well as allowing lies, stupidity, dangerous myths and plain and simple PRC propaganda to be accessed in real time to many of today's teenagers, most of whom are incredibly ignorant and can't think for themselves (because they use TikTok....), was used by a steelworker to post high resolution pics of potentially sensitive visual information that the government of the PRC was trying not to have leaked!

(For those who want a simpler version of my TikTok rant, it is essentially Facebook, but for teenagers. Replace Mark Zuckerberg stealing your data with the PRC, and the 40 year-old soccer moms posting minions with scantily dressed teenagers. Apart from those they are eerily similar.)

Anyway, that ends my rant there, I fear I got a little sidetracked. Speaking of photos, have there been any more photos that have been revealed?
Click to expand...

It's called Douyin in Chinese, and TikTok is based off Douyin.
The apps themselves and the algorithms that drive them (and the content it shows you) are similar if not identical, but TikTok is the international/western one... so it would've been weird if the guy posted it to TikTok lol.

The few seconds of the videoclip that were posted were interesting but not particularly sensitive, showing basically the port side of the ship in drydock, nor was the resolution that good -- but the principle of someone working in the shipyard taking images of any kind in the shipyard itself would've caused them to either review their opsec and/or fire the guy.
What's funny is that what we saw in that particular clip was nothing that wouldn't already have been shown (and then some!) if this was a carrier being built in the west, but the PLA has such a higher threshold for opsec that even such breadcrumbs are seen so lucratively.



CV12Hornet said:
According to Rick Joe, early-to-mid 2022.
Click to expand...

Given the pace of work of the ship in the last few months, I would rework it to be possibly a bit sooner, late 2021 to early 2022 is plausible.
 
dannydale said:
Wyvern said:
which allows idiotic dancing videos to proliferate, thus making today's youth look shameful,
Click to expand...
You forgot the team_nohesitation vehicular terrorists. Tiktok literally encourages intentionally dangerous stunt driving that involves other people without their consent.
Click to expand...
To be fair, when I was a teenager my friends and I needed no encouragement in this department. I once drove an '85 stanza over a rail bridge.
 
dannydale said:
Bounce said:
Wyvern said:
Except that one phone camera-wielding steelworker who uploaded images to TikTok.


I still can't get my head round that! A Chinese-made tool of spyware, which allows idiotic dancing videos to proliferate, thus making today's youth look shameful, as well as allowing lies, stupidity, dangerous myths and plain and simple PRC propaganda to be accessed in real time to many of today's teenagers, most of whom are incredibly ignorant and can't think for themselves (because they use TikTok....), was used by a steelworker to post high resolution pics of potentially sensitive visual information that the government of the PRC was trying not to have leaked!

(For those who want a simpler version of my TikTok rant, it is essentially Facebook, but for teenagers. Replace Mark Zuckerberg stealing your data with the PRC, and the 40 year-old soccer moms posting minions with scantily dressed teenagers. Apart from those they are eerily similar.)

Anyway, that ends my rant there, I fear I got a little sidetracked. Speaking of photos, have there been any more photos that have been revealed?
Click to expand...
View attachment 662106
Click to expand...
Not really. In fact, not at all.
Click to expand...
No no, he's right.
 
Hood said:
Whaat? They only stuck the island on a month ago!

It might be externally looking good but there's probably a lot of internal work still to do and final fitting out.
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I think we're going to continue to be shocked by the astonishing speed of Chinese manufacturing. These are the concerns being echoed in the halls of Congress, but many aren't willing to take China seriously enough yet. A good chunk of Corporate America is still heavily invested over there... and our rate of dis-engagement & re-patriating pales in comparison to China's rate of military modernization.
 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMEr_58gd1U


if you can get past the fact that this is a youtube channel narrated by a talking frog puppet

it seems to have a very interesting comparison of the deck size, hanger space and aircraft capacity of the Type 003 compared to various US carriers. Also includes a very awesome CG of the completed ship too.
 
The latest image of the Type 003 aircraft carrier shows the deck is indeed almost closed.

(Image via @核动力航母战斗群吧 on Tieba)


PLN Type 003 carrier - 20210825.png
 
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Are there only two ac elevators? Also they look smallish to me. Single aircraft?
 
They do appear to be smaller than Nimitz elevators. The Chinese might come to regret that, and only having two, when they have to actually operate the ship.
 
CV12Hornet said:
They do appear to be smaller than Nimitz elevators. The Chinese might come to regret that, and only having two, when they have to actually operate the ship.
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It depends how many aircrafts they really want to operate. For instance all Italian aircaft carriers has only two elevators (Garibaldi, Cavour and Trieste) since usually Italian Navy doesn't have more than 8-10 aircraft to exploit.

Maybe Chinese, in the same fashion, feel that they didn't have a large number of aircrafts operating by a single ship, or maybe not.
Both Liaoning and Shandong have aound 40 aircrafts (fighters and helicopters), so they retain the same two elevators of the Kuznetzov.
Most likely such third carrier would still have no more than, let say, 50 aircrafts in total to move around so the two elevators are still sufficient.
 
CV12Hornet said:
They do appear to be smaller than Nimitz elevators. The Chinese might come to regret that, and only having two, when they have to actually operate the ship.
Click to expand...

Presumably they were aware of the situation from their experience with Liaoning, but it seems like a curious choice.

ETA: presumably this CV is going to be a full service platform for at least 30 years; it seems a little limiting to have that little hanger access for what is apparently a clean sheet design.
 
archipeppe said:
CV12Hornet said:
They do appear to be smaller than Nimitz elevators. The Chinese might come to regret that, and only having two, when they have to actually operate the ship.
Click to expand...
It depends how many aircrafts they really want to operate. For instance all Italian aircaft carriers has only two elevators (Garibaldi, Cavour and Trieste) since usually Italian Navy doesn't have more than 8-10 aircraft to exploit.

Maybe Chinese, in the same fashion, feel that they didn't have a large number of aircrafts operating by a single ship, or maybe not.
Both Liaoning and Shandong have aound 40 aircrafts (fighters and helicopters), so they retain the same two elevators of the Kuznetzov.
Most likely such third carrier would still have no more than, let say, 50 aircrafts in total to move around so the two elevators are still sufficient.
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Even an air wing in the 50 range is a US Navy-size air wing, and something that merits either more elevators, bigger elevators, or both. Plus there's no guarantee the Type 003's air wing is going to stay at that size, either. Like the US Navy the Chinese could very well want to add more special-mission aircraft as time goes on.

Josh_TN said:
CV12Hornet said:
They do appear to be smaller than Nimitz elevators. The Chinese might come to regret that, and only having two, when they have to actually operate the ship.
Click to expand...

Presumably they were aware of the situation from their experience with Liaoning, but it seems like a curious choice.

ETA: presumably this CV is going to be a full service platform for at least 30 years; it seems a little limiting to have that little hanger access for what is apparently a clean sheet design.
Click to expand...
Structural concerns, perhaps? Combining those side elevators with having the strength deck at the flight deck, especially at these sizes, is a whopper of an engineering challenge, one the US has had the great fortune of having solved 70 years ago with the Forrestal class.

I think we're only going to get clarity on this once it's revealed what the Chinese are going to do as a follow-on from this ship.
 
The size of the elevators seems to preclude a navalized J-20.

The lack of a portside elevator also would severely hamper plane handling when it comes to the waist catapult.
 
Elevators are roughly 16 meters wide. Enough for 2 J15s. And likely enough for 2 J-31s or whatever the next fighter is going to get named.

While more elevators is generally always better from operations side, prepping planes for catapults will not be significantly influenced by the lack of a portside elevator.

And large launch cycle is, as always, going to be done by hauling prepped planes to the deck. Then arming them, and I do believe all the weapon elevators are on the starboard side anyways, and then the planes will be lined up to use the catapults. For the waist catapult that will likely result in several planes waiting to be launched behind the waist catapult blast deflector. And if the strike package is REALLY large (we're talking possibly over half the entire air wing) then there'd be another line of several J15s prepped on the other side of the runway. When the parking space behind the portside catapult gets clear, a J15 would be taken across the runway and put in queue.
As pretty much all carrier ops are done in cycles, there isn't a constant trickle of planes landing. For the great majority of time, the runway will be used to normally shift the planes around.
 
totoro said:
Elevators are roughly 16 meters wide. Enough for 2 J15s. And likely enough for 2 J-31s or whatever the next fighter is going to get named.

While more elevators is generally always better from operations side, prepping planes for catapults will not be significantly influenced by the lack of a portside elevator.

And large launch cycle is, as always, going to be done by hauling prepped planes to the deck. Then arming them, and I do believe all the weapon elevators are on the starboard side anyways, and then the planes will be lined up to use the catapults. For the waist catapult that will likely result in several planes waiting to be launched behind the waist catapult blast deflector. And if the strike package is REALLY large (we're talking possibly over half the entire air wing) then there'd be another line of several J15s prepped on the other side of the runway. When the parking space behind the portside catapult gets clear, a J15 would be taken across the runway and put in queue.
As pretty much all carrier ops are done in cycles, there isn't a constant trickle of planes landing. For the great majority of time, the runway will be used to normally shift the planes around.
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Designing your flight deck to only work when everything's going 100% to plan is a great way to learn about when things go wrong.
 
totoro said:
Elevators are roughly 16 meters wide. Enough for 2 J15s. And likely enough for 2 J-31s or whatever the next fighter is going to get named.
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Can you site a source for the size of the elevators and the width of a folded J15? Because nothing I'm seeing online seems to confirm anything like two aircraft on that elevator. Unless I misunderstood and you meant one aircraft on two different elevators.
 
www.csis.org

Progress Report on China’s Type 003 Carrier

Recent satellite imagery reveals that steady progress continues on the construction of China’s third aircraft carrier. New estimates by CSIS suggest the vessel may launch later this year.
www.csis.org www.csis.org

They say carrier is 318 m long. From there it's easy to measure elevator width, using available imagery.
Their text also says elevators are a few feet wider than those on 002.

Width of folded j15 is same as that of su33. Which is, according to yefim Gordon's book on flankers 7.40 meters.
 

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