Mystery aircraft photographed over Texas

Static said:
This is Steve Douglass - one of the photographers who shot the mystery aircraft over Texas. I've been reading the commentary (lurking) and I'm here now to answer and questions about the sighting.
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Hey Steve - welcome.


My position is undecided - I don't think the photos I have seen are detailed enough to draw many useful conclusions about what is in the photo - the trailing edge is so poorly defined that even with image enhancements it is statistically close to the random noise of the sky and if you obscure the clear leading edges the trailing edge seems less well defined which leads me to wonder if there is an element of optical illusion completing the triangle here. I'd appreciate a original/RAW format image to play with if available :)
 
Static said:
This is Steve Douglass - one of the photographers who shot the mystery aircraft over Texas. I've been reading the commentary (lurking) and I'm here now to answer and questions about the sighting.
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Hi Steve!

in your Blog entry you mentioned that you got a call from a friend called "Tom", a guy with a government job.
Why do you think he got you the tip? Did he want a civillian person to get photos of this craft, and if so, why?

Regards
 
Thanks for the welcome.


As for "Tom" his name was withheld because he has a government job and his superiors might not appreciate the tremendous amount of publicity this sighting has generated. I'll add that for those conspiracy types, his job does have direct ties to aviation but nothing black. In fact he spotted the trio of aircraft on his way home and wasn't on the job. He's an aviation enthusiast too and had no idea the three planes he saw on his way home were anything special.


Once we had realized what we had captured on pixels there was a lot of discussion, forensic analysis of the photos, and passing around of the images among experts at Aviation Week before the decision to publish. We all were surprised when (twice) spokespersons at Whiteman stated there were no B-2s flying on that day and recently we learned the Edwards B-2 was on the ground as well. In fact the whole incident probably would have been dismissed by Aviation Week if anyone in an official capacity had said they were B-2s. Adding fueling to the fire was the non-denial from the Pentagon who when shown the photos and asked what they were said "We have nothing for you." They too could have said they were B-2s.


The aircraft that Dean Muskett and myself photographed we think were of the same type, however only one presented it's planform as it flew in and out of the contrail (almost playfully) of the lead aircraft. The radio transmissions (the three ship check in on both (discrete) ZAB (albuquerque center) and ZFW (Fort Worth Center) frequencies of 251.100 MHz and 326.100 MHz led us to believe they were manned. The only other military aircraft I monitored at the time were the two BEAL T-38s that had departed 20 minutes earlier using the call sign ROPER. There were no other communications captured other than the 3 ship check in by what sounded like SIENNA or SENNA flight.
 
Welcome aboard Steve!

I certainly agree with Overscan - there's not enough information here to really draw any conclusions.

However, if this truly is something new, I'm wondering if it's part of a company-funded risk-reduction demonstration program, along the lines of Polecat or the rumored Bright Star Quiet Supercruise demonstrator?

The closest possibility, in my opinion, was pointed out by Orionblamblam earlier in this thread:

Orionblamblam said:
With the obvious (and important) exception of the aft centerbody, the Mystery Aircraft looks not unlike this Northrop design from two years ago:
http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=336
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The aircraft approached Amarillo from the southwest. It's a WAG (wild ass guess) they could have ben working the ranges in New Mexico, maybe McGregor or White Sands or even Melrose for that matter.


It's interesting to note that just days after AVWK released the story Whiteman AFB sent B-2s sorties (very loud and proud) over Amarillo and West Texas on Tuesday April 8th, which were seen from Midland to Roswell to parts NE. They were seen three times, and photographed (by myself) once. I also received photos from others who witnessed them - and they remarked - how could they not have?


It was clear they weren't exactly keeping their sortie on the down-low.


Although they did little to convince me what we saw were B-2s they did provide me with some good comparison photos.


The next day when I inquired with the PAO at Whiteman AFB if they had any B-2s up over Amarillo they were not so forthcoming.


Steve,Thanks for your query. For this and any future queries regarding this issue, as a matter of operational security, we will not discuss flight schedules and flight paths.V/R,John M. Cooper1st Lt, United States Air ForceChief, Public Affairs, 509th Bomb WingWhiteman AFB, MO



You can read about the account here: http://deepbluehorizon.blogspot.com/2014/04/flying-triangles-and-b-2s-over-amarillo.html
 
To be honest - there was no way to gauge the size of the aircraft - however, comparing them to the B-2s we saw flying I'd guesstimate they weren't quite as large as a B-2 - maybe 2/3rds the size. A few days later I photographed an airliner flying at approximately the same altitude and at the same distance and it looked similar in size.


The airliner did fly over the Amarillo VORTAC and it was an MD-80.
 
sublight is back said:
xstatic3000 said:
Welcome aboard Steve!
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? ? ? static=xstatic3000
I'm sure Paul can verify by looking at the IP addresses.
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Not at all. I'm guessing Steve's handle refers to his radio monitoring expertise. I'm just some random dude who wishes he had more to contribute.
 
Static said:
This is Steve Douglass - one of the photographers who shot the mystery aircraft over Texas. I've been reading the commentary (lurking) and I'm here now to answer and questions about the sighting.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot Steve for joining this forum and taking the time to contribute. I take it as a sign that you didn't view the first 20 pages of this discussion as utter nonsense — and also that you deem our community well-behaved and balanced enough to join in the discussion. I believe I'll speak on behalf of the other forumites here if I say that it is really appreciated!
 
Static said:
The aircraft approached Amarillo from the southwest. It's a WAG (wild ass guess) they could have ben working the ranges in New Mexico, maybe McGregor or White Sands or even Melrose for that matter.


It's interesting to note that just days after AVWK released the story Whiteman AFB sent B-2s sorties (very loud and proud) over Amarillo and West Texas on Tuesday April 8th, which were seen from Midland to Roswell to parts NE. They were seen three times, and photographed (by myself) once. I also received photos from others who witnessed them - and they remarked - how could they not have?


It was clear they weren't exactly keeping their sortie on the down-low.


Although they did little to convince me what we saw were B-2s they did provide me with some good comparison photos.


The next day when I inquired with the PAO at Whiteman AFB if they had any B-2s up over Amarillo they were not so forthcoming.


Steve,Thanks for your query. For this and any future queries regarding this issue, as a matter of operational security, we will not discuss flight schedules and flight paths.V/R,John M. Cooper1st Lt, United States Air ForceChief, Public Affairs, 509th Bomb WingWhiteman AFB, MO



You can read about the account here: http://deepbluehorizon.blogspot.com/2014/04/flying-triangles-and-b-2s-over-amarillo.html
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With regard to the flight test ranges mentioned are any of them radar test ranges for stealth analysis?

Also welcome to SP great to 'grow' the accumulated knowledge and expertise on the site.
 
dark sidius said:
HI steve,
with your known about the aviation can you estimate the size of this plane ?
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Absolutely. You can estimate the size from the EXIF data by calculating the spatial resolution.


Off the top of my head....
(2 * distance in mm * ((sensor width in mm * sensor height in mm) / focal length in mm)/(image width in pixels * image height in pixels) ) = mm per pixel in image
Measure the object in pixels and multiply by the product of that.


So for example the Wichita image was taken with with a focal length of 400mm. Look up the dimensions of the sensor used by that camera and plug those values in. Plug in the image dimensions as well. Estimate the distance to the object. If you use 41,000 ft, you end up with a length between 67 and 72 feet. If the camera has GPS and a compass or uses an IMU, you can get a more precise estimate of the distance with a little trigonometry. If you have multiple images you can refine your estimate further.


I have a wonderful little application that automates all of that for me. Comes in handy surprisingly often.
 
bobbymike said:
With regard to the flight test ranges mentioned are any of them radar test ranges for stealth analysis?
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Those are in Nevada (you can guess where), CA (Death Valley with NT-43, and nearby at Randsburg Wash), and MD (Pax River).
 
Static said:
A few days later I photographed an airliner flying at approximately the same altitude and at the same distance and it looked similar in size.
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How do you know the altitude?
 
Whoops - meant Fort Worth Center. As for Radar test ranges - there's RAMS/RATSCAT on the White Sands Missile Range.


http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/radar-target-scatter-ratscat-range/
 
Static said:
To be honest - there was no way to gauge the size of the aircraft - however, comparing them to the B-2s we saw flying I'd guesstimate they weren't quite as large as a B-2 - maybe 2/3rds the size. A few days later I photographed an airliner flying at approximately the same altitude and at the same distance and it looked similar in size.


The airliner did fly over the Amarillo VORTAC and it was an MD-80.
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Smaller...huh, well, so much for my cargo lifter idea.
 
Static said:
Whoops - meant Fort Worth Center. As for Radar test ranges - there's RAMS/RATSCAT on the White Sands Missile Range.
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RAMS and RATSCAT are not dynamic aerial ranges - they can't measure an aircraft in flight. There are a number of other static ranges in the southwest, such as the GD range near Clark Field (which was the precursor to RATSCAT and RAMS), the Army Outdoor Compact Range at Ft. H., the Kirtland AFB outdoor range, the various facilities at China Lake, two near San Diego (ATK and another), and of course the well known Lockheed and Northrop facilities.
There are also a number of ranges in the East (UTC, LMSC, etc.) , and of course many indoor compact ranges.


B-2's (and other VLO aircraft) regularly visit Groom Lake for in flight RCS measurement as well as pairing up with RAT-55 over Death Valley:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mikefield/365963233
https://www.flickr.com/photos/unclejefejefe/3312252927
https://www.flickr.com/photos/7331818@N02/6780460950
https://www.flickr.com/photos/echeng/8419573452


Pro tip: Flickr's Map Search can help you find photos of airplanes in particular regions. Can be quite helpful for answering questions like "What day is best for sitting in a lawn chair in Palmdale?"
https://www.flickr.com/map
 
Yeah - I was fairly sure they only did pole model testing at RATSCAT. I forgot about Kirtland. That being what it may - I don't think these are test birds.
 
Again, none of this makes any sense. A sight-sensitive platform flying across the country, in broad daylight? And why?
Either this was a monumental failure in mission planning.....or it was something already known and acknowledged.
 
xstatic3000 said:
Again, none of this makes any sense. A sight-sensitive platform flying across the country, in broad daylight? And why?
Either this was a monumental failure in mission planning.....or it was something already known and acknowledged.
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Or it is something that is starting to be integrated with our normal fighting forces, as when the F-117A was declassified so our fighting forces would be able to factor it in to their war fighting doctrine and learn best how to employ it. In fact, I've seen some talk of these being ECM platforms, so maybe they are being flown to send a signal to Washington that the USAF hasn't given up on the ECM mission, they just felt like not advertising their capability in that role. I'm not saying that <i>is</i> the reason, I'm just showing that there are many more possibilities regarding the sightings happening now.
 
Sundog said:
Or it is something that is starting to be integrated with our normal fighting forces, as when the F-117A was declassified so our fighting forces would be able to factor it in to their war fighting doctrine and learn best how to employ it.
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The F-117 was declassified *before* that happened. They brought it out of the black so it could play well with others, not after it already had been.


Sundog said:
In fact, I've seen some talk of these being ECM platforms, so maybe they are being flown to send a signal to Washington that the USAF hasn't given up on the ECM mission, they just felt like not advertising their capability in that role.
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Washington is well aware of how much USAF has been spending on EW. USAF is working EW more than just about anyone else. TECR and TPECR are getting bigger and more active, not smaller and sleepy.

Sundog said:
I'm not saying that is the reason, I'm just showing that there are many more possibilities regarding the sightings happening now
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Can you think of a previous program that was flown in daylight over CONUS far from a restricted test range?
 
Now I am not claiming any of the following is really the case, I am just throwing up a hypothesis as to why sightings of these platforms were risked. There will be many other fictional narratives, and they will be equally as flawed as mine.


Perhaps the new aircraft has some unique sensor capability, One which was urgently required due to the nature of a percieved threat. A threat that was thought to be so serious that the sight sensitive nature of these aircraft was sacrificed? e.g. intel that a large bomb (which glows in the dark) was being moved into & across CONUS from the south


Over at DLR there has been a comment made (admittedly an unverifiable "he said, she said" type of affair).


"For what its worth; I work for a aerospace company in san diego that manufactures drones--many of us have been discussing this, and the only thing compelling I heard from ex AF people here is that these are, if anything, light bomber test prototypes--the consensus from them was they could be flying out of Kirtland. Nobody here seemed surprised nor incredulous and their reactions were somewhat "we heard something was coming" and a general "ho hum" as though alot of us are late to the party..."


They do some interesting things at Kirtland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Air_Force_Base




More recently...
http://www.wcvb.com/news/lowflying-helicopters-measure-radiation-over-marathon-course/25551530#!FQPcm
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Steve,

Welcome aboard!
As one who's had a similar sighting and subsequent grilling, I know the score.

Did you get a look at the beast(s) with binoculars or only through the lens?

Chris
 
Just because we saw something that was probably a classified aircraft in daylight does not mean we will know more anytime soon(although I wish it were so :-\ )

Think about those stealth black hawks from the Bin Laden Raid, one crashed and was not completely destroyed and than picked apart by the Pakis and Chinese, there's still no confirmation that they exist or actual official photos of them yet.
 
quellish said:
The F-117 was declassified *before* that happened. They brought it out of the black so it could play well with others, not after it already had been.
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Very true.

quellish said:
Washington is well aware of how much USAF has been spending on EW. USAF is working EW more than just about anyone else. TECR and TPECR are getting bigger and more active, not smaller and sleepy.
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Yeah, I keep thinking in terms of tactical platforms. We see the EA-18G, but not something similar in the USAF, but I forget they have other ways of doing this; Drones & Rivet Joint? What platforms are they using for this, or are they using that in combination with pods on tactical aircraft?

quellish said:
Can you think of a previous program that was flown in daylight over CONUS far from a restricted test range?
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No. So what do you think the reason is? Do you think they were caught "returning home" from an overseas deployment?
 
quellish said:
Can you think of a previous program that was flown in daylight over CONUS far from a restricted test range?
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OXCART! Granted, it was at high altitude, but...
 
Triton said:
Could the aircraft in question be the so-called Northrop TR-3A Black Manta?
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I believe our very own Quellish cleared that up almost 20 years ago. "TR-3" was most likely a misheard bastardization of "Tier-3".


Respectfully, I know that all of us are excited about the possibility of a new program being uncovered. But honestly this thread is starting to drift into the realm of idle speculation.


It's not "Aurora".
It's not a "TR-3A".
It's not a "Flaming Pumpkinseed".


It might not be a B-2. I'm fortunate enough to work with a longtime ANG B-2 pilot out of Whiteman on occasion, and he always smiles and changes the subject anytime I ask about any "new toys". So you never know......
 
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Everyone and their dog knows "TR-3" was misheard "Tier-3" by now, I'd hope.
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What about the cat? ;) Oh, that's right...the cat knew before we did...sneaky little sod! ;D
 
xstatic3000 said:
It's not "Aurora".
It's not a "TR-3A".
It's not a "Flaming Pumpkinseed".
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What's gray, has 2 or more engines, is 65-70 feet long, has often been seen with a crescent-shaped specular reflection, and frequently flies over Kansas and Texas?

Obviously it's Blackstar.
 
quellish said:
What's gray, has 2 or more engines, is 65-70 feet long, has often been seen with a crescent-shaped specular reflection, and frequently flies over Kansas and Texas?

Obviously it's Blackstar.
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No it's probably the F-121, based on the description.
If it isn't that, then it's the production version of the YF-113G.
And if it isn't that it's the production version of the YF-24.
Also, if it isn't any of those, then it's definitely something else.

The F-19!!! Finally. ;)
 
quellish said:
What's gray, has 2 or more engines, is 65-70 feet long, has often been seen with a crescent-shaped specular reflection, and frequently flies over Kansas and Texas?[/font]
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So it's a B-2 and the press officer at Whiteman either didn't know or lied when Steve asked if any were flying on the day of the 3 ship sighting?
 
To read or to ignore over the weekend:
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/so-what-were-those-secret-flying-wing-aircraft-spotted-1555124270
 
Mat Parry said:
quellish said:

What's gray, has 2 or more engines, is 65-70 feet long, has often been seen with a crescent-shaped specular reflection, and frequently flies over Kansas and Texas?
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So it's a B-2 and the press officer at Whiteman either didn't know or lied when Steve asked if any were flying on the day of the 3 ship sighting?
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Keep in mind that much about the B-2 is still classified - design elements, avionics, capabilities...... Personally, I can't even recall seeing complete pictures of the crew area in the public domain.

The B-2 fleet is also used occasionally in tests involving other branches of the Armed Forces, and details of these tests are almost never made public. There have been rumors going back to the 80's about F-117s, B-2s and other platforms flying out of places they don't belong, such as the Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground and Pax River.

It's understandable that the PAO at the 509th wouldn't be exactly forthcoming about all B-2 operations, or wouldn't even be privy to or cleared to know everything that they are up to on a given day. Even if they did know, would they be likely to disclose details to an individual who is known for being a published writer and monitor of unacknowledged programs?
 
xstatic3000 said:
The B-2 fleet is also used occasionally in tests involving other branches of the Armed Forces, and details of these tests are almost never made public. There have been rumors going back to the 80's about F-117s, B-2s and other platforms flying out of places they don't belong, such as the Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground and Pax River.
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I'm sure both the Army and Navy would like to test their systems against actual stealth aircraft (Patriot and Aegis). Not shooting them down obviously but just seeing what they could see when from what angles etc.
 

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