Moskva burning
- Thread starter Orionblamblam
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Reports - to be trusted as far as any others this war has produced - claim that the Ukrainians distracted the cruiser with drones (and thus, aviation relevance), then hit the ship with a pair of Neptun anti-ship missiles, and that the ship rolled onto its side. Take it for what its worth.
Someobody's got some explaining to do. Of course, this whole thing requires some explaining. But how a powerful, presumably modern warship can be baffled by a single distinctly subsonic drone, to the exclusion of swatting incoming ASMs... that might be a mystery forever, especially if a good chunk fo the crew went down with it.
jeffb
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Well, as I heard it, the crew was dealing with an 'ammunition fire' and non-essential crew had largely been evacuated. That *might* explain it but yeah, someone's got some explaining to do.
Losing Moskva has been compared to the US losing a carrier.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
She isn't modern. She did not get any major upgrades due to lack of funds and being very "tight" design. Essentially she is still a 80s warship. And the whole 1164 project have serious disadvantages.
jeffb
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That doesn't seem very likely as that spot in the Black Sea is probably already crawling with Russian Navy.
jeffb
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Think I saw that it got a complete refurb in 2000. But yeah, 40 year old design.
Question is how the ammo caught fire. Neither of the two likely explanations - enemy action, or "whoopsie" - look at all career enhancing.
Well, in fairness it's not like the US hasn't lost ships recently to fires...
Hell, most of the stuff major militaries use are 40 years old or older. The Nimitz was launched in '72. It's one month short of being *fifty* years old, and I as a taxpayer would be offended if it wasn't reasonably up to date.
Which means it's crawling with targets in range of the same missiles that took out the Moskva.
jeffb
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Guess we'll see. I imagine there are already a number of su-25s and gunships 'on the hunt'.
jeffb
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Which means the farm boys with the Stingers and Starstreaks are gettin' all giggity.
Missiles are *really* making a name for themselves this war.
jeffb
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Maybe. There's so much propaganda on both sides it's difficult to say. The Russians don't seem to have lost a lot of aircraft recently, or that is, Ukraine haven't been putting out videos of them shooting down Russian aircraft lately. There was that one video a week or two back from a Ukrainian commander in Mariupol complaining about the stingers being rubbish 'that don't do anything', but that might just have been a 'training issue'.
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Well that should shut up everyone decrying subsonic AShMs.....
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Nah, just minimal refit during planned maintenance. Of all three "Slava" sisters, "Moskva" was the least refitted one.
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I hope the crew did get off.
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On another forum there has been much speculation about magnesium alloys used in the construction of the superstructure and how that may have burned.
It would not surprise me if its still afloat, any missile hit would be above the waterline and even severely burned ships topside have floated for quite some time after. Luckily for the Russians a port is near so salvage is possible by tug.
If the main missile battery in their GRP tubes haven't cooked off then it sounds more like the Fort battery amidships.
Either way, the whole crew were evacuated (and show no willingness to get back aboard) which doesn't sound like an AK-630M ammo locker brewed up or some other "localised" fire. The Project 1164 class are pretty well stashed with explosive burny munitions (shells, three types of missiles, torpedoes, RBU rockets, helicopter weapons) so any hit anywhere is going to cook something off.
In any case there will be satellite images of the resulting hulk sooner or later...
It would not surprise me if its still afloat, any missile hit would be above the waterline and even severely burned ships topside have floated for quite some time after. Luckily for the Russians a port is near so salvage is possible by tug.
If the main missile battery in their GRP tubes haven't cooked off then it sounds more like the Fort battery amidships.
Either way, the whole crew were evacuated (and show no willingness to get back aboard) which doesn't sound like an AK-630M ammo locker brewed up or some other "localised" fire. The Project 1164 class are pretty well stashed with explosive burny munitions (shells, three types of missiles, torpedoes, RBU rockets, helicopter weapons) so any hit anywhere is going to cook something off.
In any case there will be satellite images of the resulting hulk sooner or later...
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If the Moskva had any nukes at all onboard (doubtful) it's unlikely they'd be usable by Ukraine. Even if they were, for them to use them on Russia would surely invite a response in kind.
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Ship singular. And arson and combat are a bit different. (On the other hand the US completely lost a ship that was a hell of a lot more valuable.)
QuadroFX
Russia, Chelyabinsk
Main missiles of the "Moskva" cruiser, which was damaged by fire the day before, were not damaged, RuMOD said.
The "Moskva" cruiser remains buoyancy. The main missile armament is not damaged. The cruiser's crew was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet in the area," the department said.
The Ministry of Defense added that the source of fire was localized, there was no open burning, and the explosions of ammunition had ceased. Now experts are working on towing the ship to the port and establishing the causes of the emergency.
ria.ru
The "Moskva" cruiser remains buoyancy. The main missile armament is not damaged. The cruiser's crew was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet in the area," the department said.
The Ministry of Defense added that the source of fire was localized, there was no open burning, and the explosions of ammunition had ceased. Now experts are working on towing the ship to the port and establishing the causes of the emergency.
Минобороны: основное ракетное вооружение крейсера "Москва" не пострадало
Ракеты крейсера "Москва", который накануне получил повреждения из-за пожара, не пострадали, сообщили в Минобороны. РИА Новости, 14.04.2022
archipeppe
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For sure, it was the Black Sea fleet admiral....
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Link to technical only thread on Neptune that I’ve started.
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I would have never guessed those were fibrerglass tubes. I'd have thought steel for sure.
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Interesting to see the Lithuanian Minister for National Defense putting out a statement on this (Lithuania is not exactly Johnny on the spot for this incident). But he cites Romanian and Turkish sources saying Moskva has rolled over and sunk. Saw something similar from "Reverse Side of the Medal" a pro-Russian Telegram channel (but the post appears to be gone now.)
View: https://www.facebook.com/100002969526590/posts/4800110346764569/
Will be interesting to see the sat imagery when the weather clears. It's pretty solid overcast right now.
View: https://www.facebook.com/100002969526590/posts/4800110346764569/
Will be interesting to see the sat imagery when the weather clears. It's pretty solid overcast right now.
Weird that more than 12 hours later there is no definitive answer to the condition of the vessel. "Sunk/Not-Sunk" is kind of a binary choice, not a spectrum.
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Schrodinger’s ship - caught between death and life in the media of the world…
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US Press Secretary John Kirby says she is afloat and steaming under her own power, but clearly damaged.
Pentagon: We know Russian warship suffered an explosion
Ukrainian officials said their forces launched a successful missile attack on the flagship of Russia's Black Sea fleet, forcing the crew to evacuate the vessel. Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby joins Morning Joe to discuss what is known about the explosion as well as the White House's plans...
www.msnbc.com
April 14, 2022 Russia-Ukraine news
The US and EU have pledged a combined $1.3 billion more in military aid for Ukraine as Russia prepares to launch an eastern offensive.
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Kirby's speech seems to contradict the Russian claim that the crew were evacuated and that the ship is being towed and paints a more rosy picture than even the Russian's are trying to do.
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Possible scenario in which all of these statements are true:
Explosion occurs. Some crew evacuate while others fight the fire (possibly spontaneously evacuated, possibly by command). Propulsion is offline due to shock or flooding. Fire comes under control and the ship is taken under tow. Sometime later, the remaining crew on board are able to restore propulsion and the tow is cast off.
It is also quite possible that the US has a better understanding of the situation on scene than Russian authorities do.
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Absolutely. Just at the speculative level, but people arguing that it couldn't have been a missile because the smoke is coming from "underneath the ship" (but never with photos). Etc.
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On the 29 March Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu issued a statement that “Ukraine military capacity had been seriously degraded”.
Now the Black Sea flagship has experienced multiple explosions which the official Russian statement speaks of “ammunition”/“investigation” which is suggestive of an accident or a mine, and fair enough, it maybe..
However, if this was the result of a Ukrainian Neptune missile attack, which the Russian Military will be presently aware of, it’s quite profound how the “Ukraine military capacity had been seriously degraded” narrative maybe being protected.
As ever, as time rolls on, propaganda becomes easier to spot, we’ll understand more.
Now the Black Sea flagship has experienced multiple explosions which the official Russian statement speaks of “ammunition”/“investigation” which is suggestive of an accident or a mine, and fair enough, it maybe..
However, if this was the result of a Ukrainian Neptune missile attack, which the Russian Military will be presently aware of, it’s quite profound how the “Ukraine military capacity had been seriously degraded” narrative maybe being protected.
As ever, as time rolls on, propaganda becomes easier to spot, we’ll understand more.
So, you liked that old movie "is Paris burning ?" now discover the sequel "Is Moskva burning ?" (runs for cover)
Great minds think alike. You ninja'd me ! Also Heisenberg warship - uncertainity principle presently running high.
Great minds think alike. You ninja'd me ! Also Heisenberg warship - uncertainity principle presently running high.
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