Mogami/DEX/30FFM class frigate

Kota said:
Now I'm just waiting for XRIM-4 (as it was originally intended) resurfaces. A quad packed modified AAM-4 with an active AESA seeker to replace ESSM would be really competitive as ESSM mostly doesn't have competition. However XRIM-4 developed into A-SAM, so idk how likely it is to see a return to the quad pack concept.
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Isn't the next block of ESSMs getting an active radar?

While getting some competition for ESSM is good, exporting that XRIM-4 is going to be a hard sell.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Isn't the next block of ESSMs getting an active radar?

While getting some competition for ESSM is good, exporting that XRIM-4 is going to be a hard sell.
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Hypothetically the XRIM-4 will continue with the AAM-4(B)s phased seeker and will have that advantage. If Japan went this route and finalized the overturning of the 3 principles, then I could see a market in SEA. Maybe Europe too, but it would have to get integrated into PAAMS and A50
 
Kota said:
Hypothetically the XRIM-4 will continue with the AAM-4(B)s phased seeker and will have that advantage. If Japan went this route and finalized the overturning of the 3 principles, then I could see a market in SEA. Maybe Europe too, but it would have to get integrated into PAAMS and A50
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Even if they keep it to Mk41 compatibility, that's a big chunk of the world's navies.
 
Kota said:
Now I'm just waiting for XRIM-4 (as it was originally intended) resurfaces. A quad packed modified AAM-4 with an active AESA seeker to replace ESSM would be really competitive as ESSM mostly doesn't have competition. However XRIM-4 developed into A-SAM, so idk how likely it is to see a return to the quad pack concept.
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I doubt it, since it was cancelled for cost reasons at the time, and add to that all of the new DDs and FFMs are fitted with ICWI. If they re-think about domestic quadpack RIM, it would be based off of AAM-4 replacement under development now.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Isn't the next block of ESSMs getting an active radar?
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X-band, specifically. Probably so it can tune on the same RF signal as SPQ-9B and eliminates the need a dual band antenna. Whether is it an AESA though is still unknown.
Scott Kenny said:
exporting that XRIM-4 is going to be a hard sell.
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Europe under PAAMS, or in Poland's case, Type 31, currently uses either CAMM or Aster 15 or point defense. Germany, along with other AEGIS/APAR users would probably get AMRAAM-ER tbh. Africa is dominatef with either SA or Chinese missiles, I see no market in ME, so best hope is SEA. Question: aside from Phillipines/Indonesia who would be able to buy Japanese export?
 
asVAL said:
X-band, specifically. Probably so it can tune on the same RF signal as SPQ-9B and eliminates the need a dual band antenna. Whether is it an AESA though is still unknown.
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No AESA AS its like sm-6 supposed to be anadaption of the amraam seeker.
asVAL said:
Europe under PAAMS, or in Poland's case, Type 31, currently uses either CAMM or Aster 15 or point defense. Germany, along with other AEGIS/APAR users would probably get AMRAAM-ER
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Why Amraam-er ? There is no point in it because of ESSM blk.2
asVAL said:
Question: aside from Phillipines/Indonesia who would be able to buy Japanese export?
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Indonesia was close to buy them so they i guess.?
 
Thats why i asked him why Amraam-er. Its similiar to ESSM blk.2 but If i remember it right the upper part is an amraam maybe even the warhead so for me its worse then ESSM blk.2. Maybe cheaper
 
kqcke for you said:
No AESA AS its like sm-6 supposed to be anadaption of the amraam seeker.
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SM-6 Blk 1 and AMRAAM all have planar array not AESA type seeker. Unless D3/C7 gets one.
kqcke for you said:
Why Amraam-er ? There is no point in it because of ESSM blk.2
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Cheaper, already intergrated with NASAMS and doesnt needs re-training/certification for militaries operating them.
kqcke for you said:
Indonesia was close to buy them so they i guess.?
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Indonesia bough what exactly? A dozen rifle isnt a big deal. A SAM purchase not going through exactly highlights why theres very little prospect of anything similar going through in the future.
 
asVAL said:
Indonesia bough what exactly?
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Indonesia has bought some patrol vessels from Japan as that is basically all that's allowed to be sold atm. There is some pending purchases they want to make such as Mogami's, but Japan needs to rework the 3 principles first which should happen at the end of this year or some time next year.
asVAL said:
A SAM purchase not going through exactly highlights why theres very little prospect of anything similar going through in the future.
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What A-SAM purchase? The thing has barely started firing trials this year and hasn't even entered service in Japan yet. How could there be any offer of it to Indonesia?
 
asVAL said:
SM-6 Blk 1 and AMRAAM all have planar array not AESA type seeker. Unless D3/C7 gets one.
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I meant No AESA as in SM-6 and Amraam
asVAL said:
Cheaper, already intergrated with NASAMS and doesnt needs re-training/certification for militaries operating them.
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a Sam Not in use in Germany so it doesnt matter. Maybe Spain or norway.
asVAL said:
Indonesia bough what exactly?
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Was about to buy some mogami so maybe A-SAM could have been part of the deal but now its fremm and arrowhead.
 
kqcke for you said:
Was about to buy some mogami so maybe A-SAM could have been part of the deal but now its fremm and arrowhead.
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amti.csis.org

Scrutinizing Indonesia’s Naval Modernization Plans | Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative

Sometimes, quantity is quality in itself. Quantification may convincingly indicate progress, especially before the prying eyes of one’s political leaders and the taxpayers to whom defense and military establishments must be held accountable. Great is thus the temptation to reduce naval...
amti.csis.org amti.csis.org
Mogami is still on the table and likely. Indonesia's modernization plan calls for 6 FREMM, 2 Arrowhead, 8 Mogami, and 2 Maestale. They are just slow on acquisition due to money constraints and Korea breathing down their neck over the KF-21
 
Then let me correct myself.
For now its only fremm and arrowhead.....
Who knows if the mogami will come anytime soon.
 
Also I will say the Mogami type purchased would decide if A-SAM is even an option. If it's the old FFM then A-SAM isn't even compatible. If they buy the new type though it's on the table.
 
kqcke for you said:
a Sam Not in use in Germany so it doesnt matter. Maybe Spain or norway.
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ESSM is used on F124 frigates for one. I retract my claim though. With ESSM Blk 2 already TRL 9 and completed firing/integration trials they would eat up alot of the potential market for a naval AMRAAM-ER.
kqcke for you said:
Was about to buy some mogami so maybe A-SAM could have been part of the deal but now its fremm and arrowhead.
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Average Indonesian procurement.
 
Kota said:
What A-SAM purchase? The thing has barely started firing trials this year and hasn't even entered service in Japan yet. How could there be any offer of it to Indonesia?
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Not A-SAM, A SAM, the A being an article, the SAM being a figurative placeholder for a major military procurement program.

The irony that kqcke and I created the same literary misunderstanding lmao.
 
asVAL said:
Not A-SAM, A SAM, the A being an article, the SAM being a figurative placeholder for a major military procurement program.

The irony that kqcke and I created the same literary misunderstanding lmao.
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Yeah. My Phone for some reason deletes or Changes Letters. I wrote Nasams. Maybe this happens because i have Wurst-Finger
 
asVAL said:
ESSM is used on F124 frigates for one. I retract my claim though. With ESSM Blk 2 already TRL 9 and completed firing/integration trials they would eat up alot of the potential market for a naval AMRAAM-ER.
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What could be an Option is to upgrade essm blk.1 to amraam er but i think thats not possible
 
kqcke for you said:
Yeah. My Phone for some reason deletes or Changes Letters. I wrote Nasams. Maybe this happens because i have Wurst-Finger
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That's called "Ducking Autocorrupt."


asVAL said:
yep. Raytheon strictly stated that customers cant remanufacture AMRAAMs or ESSMs to ER config.
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Of course customers can't remanufacture. That'd eat way too much profits!
 
comparison pics from Mitsubishi via Bemil

I kinda chuckled at the mistake for the new FFM speed
2023111414332063485.jpg


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2023111414360855475.jpg

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barrett said:
A total of 12 new FFMs will be procured over the five years from 2024 to 2028.
ja.wikipedia.org

新型FFM - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org ja.wikipedia.org
nordot.app

海自新型FFMは2024年度からわずか5年間で12隻を調達へ　防衛装備庁が明かす ｜ 高橋浩祐

海上自衛隊のもがみ型護衛艦「FFM」の能力向上型となる新型FFMは、2024（令和6）年度から202...
nordot.app nordot.app
Therefore, 10 Mogami-type FFMs and 12 NEW FFMs will be built, resulting in 22 ships.
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Japan does such a good job of keeping their shipyards working, even if it's at just a relatively low level per year...
 
helmutkohl said:
comparison pics from Mitsubishi via Bemil

I kinda chuckled at the mistake for the new FFM speed





2023111414360855475.jpg
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That's a really weird spot for the SVTTs. Usually, you want those close to the helipad, as the helo and SVTTs share the same torpedo stocks. Any idea why they're so far forward?
 
that_person said:
That's a really weird spot for the SVTTs. Usually, you want those close to the helipad, as the helo and SVTTs share the same torpedo stocks. Any idea why they're so far forward?
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Towards the rear is a lot of stuff like towed sonar, UUV, USV, etc. Ahead of the hanger are mission modules, so forward like that is about all there is for space
 
Kota said:
Towards the rear is a lot of stuff like towed sonar, UUV, USV, etc. Ahead of the hanger are mission modules, so forward like that is about all there is for space
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IIRC, the US ships that had fixed LWT launchers like that had them at the very front of the hangar, or the deck below the hangar on the line with the hangar weapons elevator.
 
Scott Kenny said:
IIRC, the US ships that had fixed LWT launchers like that had them at the very front of the hangar, or the deck below the hangar on the line with the hangar weapons elevator.
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You have to remember we are comparing DDGs with double to displacement to an FFM, so the space offered isn't very equal. Also in the case of the OHP, it was out long before stuff like mission modules and USV/UUVs needing space.

Here is the mounting from the inside of the Mogami btw.
1702625547295.png
Do you know how many reloads an OHP/Burke would carry for their tubes?
 
What’s the point of decoy tubes and a Mk32? Wouldn’t it be easier to make an adapter for the Mk32 tubes?
 
Kota said:
Do you know how many reloads an OHP/Burke would carry for their tubes?
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Shared reloads with the helicopters, you strip the parachute pack off the back of a Mk46 and stuff it in the Mk32 tubes. It's the major reason the fixed LWT tubes were always close to the hangars.



that_person said:
What’s the point of decoy tubes and a Mk32? Wouldn’t it be easier to make an adapter for the Mk32 tubes?
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To have both decoys and LWTs able to fire at once.
 
launch
2021 FFM-1 Mogami Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard & Machinery Works No. 2 slipway (Musashi)
2020 FFM-2 Kumano Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Maritime Systems
2021 FFM-3 Noshiro Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard & Machinery Works 1st Dock
2021 FFM-4 Mikuma Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard & Machinery Works 1st Dock
2022 FFM-5 Yahagi Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard & Machinery Works 1st Dock
2022 FFM-6 Agano Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard 1st Dock?
2023 FFM-7 Yodo Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard & Machinery Works 1st Dock
2023 FFM-8 Yubetsu Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Maritime Systems
2024 FFM-9 04FFM Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard
2024 FFM-10 04FFM Mitsubishi Nagasaki Shipyard
 
Long-term contracts related to specific defense procurement in the FY2023 budget
(3) Scheduled delivery of applicable equipment, etc.
Bulk procurement of vertical launchers for mounting on Mogami-class destroyers (10 types in total)
3 types in 2025, 4 types in 2026, 3 types in 2027
Bulk procurement of vertical launcher function addition equipment for mounting on Mogami-class destroyer (total of 2 sets)
2 sets in FY2025
Bulk procurement of electrical components for modernization and renovation of Murasame-class and Takanami-class destroyers (14 types in total)
1 set in 2027, 11 in 2028, 2 in 2029
 
Thanks @barrett. Are these separate contracts in addition to the core Mogami FFM program budget?

Wondering if this explains the low reported cost of many Japanese ships… obviously separating out the expensive weapons and sensor would make these ships look cheaper (on paper) than they actually are…
 
Scott Kenny said:
It's the major reason the fixed LWT tubes were always close to the hangars.
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Strictly speaking, you want the LWT launchers close to the air weapons magazine, and the air weapons magazine close to the hangars. Which ususally means the LWT launchers will be close to the hangars, but other demands on the ship might mean that the two wind up surprisingly far apart on opposite sides of the magazine.

I can't think of a ship where that's been done - but under some circumstances, it might be the best available compromise.
 
Yellow Palace said:
Strictly speaking, you want the LWT launchers close to the air weapons magazine, and the air weapons magazine close to the hangars. Which ususally means the LWT launchers will be close to the hangars, but other demands on the ship might mean that the two wind up surprisingly far apart on opposite sides of the magazine.

I can't think of a ship where that's been done - but under some circumstances, it might be the best available compromise.
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Fair point.
 
H_K said:
Thanks @barrett. Are these separate contracts in addition to the core Mogami FFM program budget?

Wondering if this explains the low reported cost of many Japanese ships… obviously separating out the expensive weapons and sensor would make these ships look cheaper (on paper) than they actually are…
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It is a separate budget from the construction cost of Mogami, so it is an afterthought.

This was decided in a battle between the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Defense, with the Ministry of Defense giving priority to increasing the number of ships.
 
barrett said:
It is a separate budget from the construction cost of Mogami, so it is an afterthought.

This was decided in a battle between the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Defense, with the Ministry of Defense giving priority to increasing the number of ships.
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And I'm sure some bulk orders made a cheaper price overall, which makes Finance happy.
 

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