Mogami/DEX/30FFM class frigate

Grey Havoc

Grey Havoc

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This is supposedly a joint Japan/US project using the Independence class as a starting point, although it seems to me to have inherited some features from at least one MSDF related project of the late '80s/early 90s. First of class to enter service in 2018, which would suggest that it's to be laid down in early 2015 (Heisei 27). I'm wondering if the MSDF will eventually end up using the old 'Kaibōkan' classification for these new vessels.

12gihon157.jpg


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?220361-US-and-Japan-to-jointly-develop-littoral-combat-vessel​
 

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With a sonar bulb that deep/big, you are going to have a hard time staying littoral...
 
ouroboros said:
With a sonar bulb that deep/big, you are going to have a hard time staying littoral...
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That's one of the elements inherited from the earlier, blue water, project. This project seems to be aimed at creating a, primarily ASuW, 'green water' combatant. If the latest Japanese media reports are to be believed, the Japanese government is planning to move forward with this project in the coming fiscal year.
 
With the large aft mission deck of the trimaran they could always carry a sonar that big on a VDS mount. Hoist it out when you go shoal water and back in and below the layer when you are over the deep.
 
I seem to recall that the Japanese littorals are often very deep quite close inshore. If this is a coast defense corvette then draft is probably not quite as big an issue as it is for the USN LCS.
 
The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) DEX program is intended to deliver a compact and fast multi-purpose frigate/corvette class ship by 2019. The Japanese DEX class ship is similar to the US Navy's LCS 1 class vessels built by Lockheed Martin. The DEX boats displacement is estimated at between 2000-3000 tons with a maximum speed in excess of 40 knots. The weapon systems may include a 127mm naval gun, a Phalanx Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) and a Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) launcher to cope with airborne threats as well as a flight deck for a SH-60J helicopter. These corvettes are also intended to deploy manned and unmanned boats and unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs). The DEX program was revealed in early 2014.
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Source:
http://www.deagel.com/Corvettes-and-Missile-Boats/DEX_a002961001.aspx
 

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"Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Unveiled 30FF or DEX Next Generation Vessel Concept for the JMSDF"

Source:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/june-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/2821-mitsubishi-heavy-industries-unveiled-30ff-or-dex-next-generation-vessel-concept-for-the-jmsdf.html

In its latest "Defense and space domain briefing" Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) unveiled a new surface combatant concept. Not much information is available but this new concept may be MHI's vision for the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) next generation 3000 tons class Frigate known as "30FF" or FFX.

The MHI briefing document explains that this concept vessel is being designed to answer the new needs from the JMSDF for "compact" vessels.

The Japanese MoD expressed a new need for compatct hull Destroyers (known as DEX) in its mid-term defense program In its "Medium Term Defense Program (FY2014 - FY2018)" the Japanese MoD explains:

In defense of the seas surrounding Japan and to ensure the security of maritime traffic, the SDF will effectively
conduct various activities including holding persistent ISR and anti - submarine operations; procuring Aegis - equipped destroyers (DDG), destroyer (DD), submarines, fixed - wing patrol aircraft (P-1) and patrol helicopters (SH-60K); and conducting service - extension activities on existing destroyers, submarines, fixed-wing patrol aircraft (P-3C) and patrol helicopters (SH-60J) as stated in (1) . At the same time, it will introduce new compact- type hull destroyers with multifunctional capabilities.

Therefore this new MHI concept may also be the answer to Japan's new need for compact destroyers.

Based on the illustration, the vessels seems to be fitted with an integrated mast with several planar arrays for radar(s), a 5 inch (127mm/L62) main gun, two remote weapon stations between the bridge and the main gun, and what could be a Phalanx CIWS on top of the helicopter hangar. We'll have to wait to know more as not much information is available at all on this new concept.

Navy Recognition believes however that this concept may be the future replacement for the JMSDF older classes of surface combatant such as the 4,900 tonnes Asagiri class and the 4,000 tonnes Hatsuyuki class.

Ed. note: Thank you to our community members from Japan "@PaveSpike" and "@yasu_osugi" for the information and details.
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covert_shores said:
So basically designs get more boring with time
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This is usually true.
From All forward A-140 Yamato to the regular arranged Yamato
from the all aft two quad North Carolina design to the regular North Carolina Battleship.
From the 2 forward 1 centre P3 design (Nelson preliminary) to the all forward O3 Nelson
From the all middle (De Feo arrangement) to the all forward Richelieu
and so on :)
 
Actually, I think that the LCS derived corvette and the DEX 'compact destroyer' (frigate) are two different programs.
 
Grey Havoc said:
Actually, I think that the LCS derived corvette and the DEX 'compact destroyer' (frigate) are two different programs.
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I made a supposition based on this website:
http://www.mdc.idv.tw/mdc/navy/jmsdf/dex.htm

So this was just my best guess of where to place the article and the concept artwork. Unfortunately, I can't read or understand Japanese and don't claim to be an expert on Japanese defense issues.
 
covert_shores said:
So basically designs get more boring with time
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You say boring. The Navy says: less likely to dramatically self-destruct. :)
 
Triton said:
Grey Havoc said:
Actually, I think that the LCS derived corvette and the DEX 'compact destroyer' (frigate) are two different programs.
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I made a supposition based on this website:
http://www.mdc.idv.tw/mdc/navy/jmsdf/dex.htm

So this was just my best guess of where to place the article and the concept artwork. Unfortunately, I can't read or understand Japanese and don't claim to be an expert on Japanese defense issues.
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No problem. Even if they're separate programs, they still may be related at this early stage (sharing components & subsystems for example).
 
didn't see any dedicated thread for this topic so here we go!

There's a lot of attention and love for Japan's new Mogami class frigate
www.forbes.com

Japan’s New Mogami-Class Frigates Show What The U.S. Navy’s Littoral Combat Ships Could Have Been

The frigate's design attributes-speed, small crew size, support for unmanned vehicles, and anti-submarine and counter-mine capability-also guided development of U.S. littoral combat ships. The design Japan settled on is somewhat larger, a bit less expensive, and more versatile and heavily armed.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

It seems Indonesia may buy them. If they succeed in doing so, wouldn't this be the first major weapon system Japan has exported since the end of WW2?
I know Japan attempted the US-1 with India and that seems to be going nowhere
they also attempted to the Soryu submarine to Australia, but it seems they didn't like it
hope 3rd time is a charm

asiatimes.com

Indonesia, Japan on verge of record gunboat deal - Asia Times

JAKARTA - Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto is considering the purchase of eight stealthy Mogami-class multi-mission frigates as part
asiatimes.com asiatimes.com

dunno if all the electronics and stuff are already outfitted, but if so, that's a really sweet minimalist looking ship
1280px-JS_Kumano%28FFM-2%29_right_rear_view_at_Mitsui_Engineering_%26_Shipbuilding_Tamano_Shipyard_November_19%2C_2020_05.jpg

10.jpg
 
I am a bit surprised that with the Mogami, they couldn't get some of the internal layout right, forcing them to make a new variant.
 
helmutkohl said:
I am a bit surprised that with the Mogami, they couldn't get some of the internal layout right, forcing them to make a new variant.
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This new variant doesn't really have anything to do with the internal layout. It's more to change the FFM closer into an FFG with the biggest addition being new FCS and A-SAM integration. If you look at the old design vs the new one, most of the layout remains the same with the biggest changes being to the bridge and mast to include the extra fire control systems and sensors as well as the increased hull size to accommodate an increase from 16vls to 32vls.
1693709199958.png
 
Shame that they didn't keep the trimaran design... Bigger flight deck, higher speed for the installed power due to fineness ratio of the waterline, ...
 
Scott Kenny said:
Shame that they didn't keep the trimaran design... Bigger flight deck, higher speed for the installed power due to fineness ratio of the waterline, ...
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One of the drawbacks of the trimaran ship design is the extreme structural loads imposed with the outer hulls, even with Austal long experiance with trimarans they got it wrong with the LCS Independence.
Wikipedia "On 10 May 2022, it was reported that six of the Navy's fleet of 13 Independence class LCS suffered from hull cracks above the waterline where the deck plate and shell plate join. The cracks may develop if the ships travel faster than 15 knots in seas with maximum wave heights of about eight feet." Max wave height of 8' may only be Sea State 4, would not be surprised if using its GTs at max speed in 8' waves Independence would break up.

PS Independence was overweight and one area they cut back the weight to get back on target was by limiting the size/strength of the beams for the very large flight deck, reducing its structural strength, limiting weight of helos it can take.

​

 
Kota said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1721796122987917626
View: https://twitter.com/xaviervav/status/1721796122987917626/photo/1

New model of the FFM
View attachment 711107
View attachment 711108
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Only 32 cells in the VLS? I think that's a bit light. I'd want 48 cells, if not 64. 48 cells might be doable without stretching the hull if they added a third column of 16x cells.

An FFG needs VL-ASROC, SM2s, and ESSMs, plus Harpoon AShMs (or equivalent missiles, since the Japanese have some indigenous designs). Maybe some Tomahawks/equivalents in there, I know Japan has been working on some bigger cruise missiles than their Harpoon versions.

Ah, looks like the AShMs are in a separate launcher amidships, that helps relieve pressure on the VLS capacity, but 32 cells is just painfully tight.



For 32 cells, guesstimate a load of 6x VL-ASROCs, 12x ESSMs in quadpacks, 3x SM6, 3x SM2ERs, 17x SM2MRs. Maybe 3x SM3s for DF-21 splashing, but those will come out of the SM2MR allowance making 14x SM2MRs.

And that's just flat really tight to protect the ship itself, nevermind any convoy or fleet ships around it, from just one Bomber Regiment sized attack (48 planes). 4-6 missiles per H-6 bomber, maybe only 2 DF-21 ALBM variants.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Only 32 cells in the VLS? I think that's a bit light. I'd want 48 cells, if not 64. 48 cells might be doable without stretching the hull if they added a third column of 16x cells.

An FFG needs VL-ASROC, SM2s, and ESSMs, plus Harpoon AShMs (or equivalent missiles, since the Japanese have some indigenous designs). Maybe some Tomahawks/equivalents in there, I know Japan has been working on some bigger cruise missiles than their Harpoon versions.

Ah, looks like the AShMs are in a separate launcher amidships, that helps relieve pressure on the VLS capacity, but 32 cells is just painfully tight.



For 32 cells, guesstimate a load of 6x VL-ASROCs, 12x ESSMs in quadpacks, 3x SM6, 3x SM2ERs, 17x SM2MRs. Maybe 3x SM3s for DF-21 splashing, but those will come out of the SM2MR allowance making 14x SM2MRs.

And that's just flat really tight to protect the ship itself, nevermind any convoy or fleet ships around it, from just one Bomber Regiment sized attack (48 planes). 4-6 missiles per H-6 bomber, maybe only 2 DF-21 ALBM variants.
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These new FFMs are supposed to focus entirely on air defense for their mission with A-SAM being their main weapon, so mostly just A-SAM and ESSM filling their VLS with maybe a couple SM-3IIA.
 
Kota said:
These new FFMs are supposed to focus entirely on air defense for their mission with A-SAM being their main weapon, so mostly just A-SAM and ESSM filling their VLS with maybe a couple SM-3IIA.
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Still think they're going to keep the ASROCs for ASW since I don't see any lightweight torpedo tubes, but that's a little better for protecting the ship itself.

6x VL-ASROCs, 12x ESSMs in quadpacks, ~3x SM3s, ~20x A-SAMs. Still tight.
 

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