Mirage IIIK

[uk 75]

In the excellent French Secret Projects
Volume on Fighters there is a drawing
of a plane designated the Mirage IIIK but
in fact resembling a Mirage F2 or a fixed
wing AFVG. The drawing dates
from 1965.
Listening to M. Macron speaking
English on the Radio while I was reading
the book, I began wondering if the
plane was intended to woo the UK away
from the F4 order. The US had designated
the British F4 and F111 variants with a K.
Perhaps Dassault thought that the UK might
be persuaded to order a European plane as
part of its bid to join the EEC.
I know it seems a bit far out but the 1964 to 5
timeframe fits.

 

[dan_inbox]

There is some fanboy's fanfic on this subject at http://thempirestwilight.wikia.com/wiki/BAC/Dassault_Mirage_IIIK

BAC/Dassault Mirage IIIK
The BAC/Dassault Mirage FAW.1 (known as Mirage IIIK to Dassault) was an all weather fighter operated by the RAF and Royal Navy. It was developed by BAC from Dassault's proven Mirage III family of aircraft.

 

[Archibald]

I wouldn't want to land a Mirage III, even with the power of the mighty spey, on a British carrier, even if Ark royal and Eagle were far bigger than the Clem's.
Otherwise, a useful aircraft to replace the RAF Hunters and Jaguars.

I checked Atar and Spey respective diameters on Wikipedia: the Atar is 1050 mm, the Spey 1092 mm. Barely 2 inch, so the Spey should fit.

the result would look similar, but hopefully better, than this one

At 1200 mm the TF30 was way too big for a Mirage III rear end, plus that engine was already a pig, and the Mirage III tight airframe made things worse.

 

[galgot]

Goodness gracious me, a French pres. speaking english :O
Btw, I remember reading about a "Mirage III L" project Dassault would have done with Boeing, was to be a way for boeing to a have a light weight fighter competitor against the F-5. anyone know what engine was considered for that one, I highly doubt Boeing would have kept the ATAR. Wonder if the J79 was already considered…

 

[Archibald]

It has been discussed varied times. On one hand, there is the Boeing - Dassault proposal of 1963 for a Mirage III W just as you said - for the F-5A competition. Not much detail on this one. No idea about the engine, would be fun if it had been a J79, somewhat a Kfir but a decade earlier.
Ah ben tiens donc, looks like a French website has some valuable information.
https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Variant/14177.html

Later, in March 1971, was another Boeing - Dassault proposal for a J79 powered Mirage F1 to FXX. FXX was Boyd proposal that later become LWF, that the F-16 won.

 

[galgot]

Oh yes, it's the III W, not L , sorry. That is why my searches gave nothing...
Right, what I wondered is , if they (Dassault) already had considered the J79 for the III W, maybe the studies would have been used for the Kfir later.

edit: Thanks for the link. It mention Pratt & Whitney would have build the ATAR 9B under license !

 

[Archibald]

You are welcome.

Google search of the varied threads. Maybe they should made into one single thread (dear and beloved moderators ?)

https://www.google.fr/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&ei=qsxkWo57gcPAAo7zlNAO&q=%22Mirage+IIIW%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk&oq=%22Mirage+IIIW%22+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.secretprojects.co.uk&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4112.4112.0.4435.1.1.0.0.0.0.79.79.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.zvqSRG0mcJE

I can understand they went for the Atar in order to cut costs and modifications to the airframe, even more since Boeing had zero experience with supersonic jet fighters. Still there were in America much better engines than the Atar 9... J79, reheated J52 or J65, and others.

 

[uk 75]

Sorry folks. NOT the Mirage III delta, the Mirage IIIK was
in fact like the Mirage F family in appearance. So please post Mirage III delta stuff on another thread.

 

[zen]

The irony.....

In pondering what best fit the carrier force, the ideal came in as a Mirage G for a single engined option. Powered by a variant of the Spey's older relative, the Medway....or something along those lines.

Mirage F2 and it's relatives are rather good as a basis for supersonic Fighter and Attack machines instead of Jaguar and Lightning. Potentially cheaper.

Not a hope in hell of course, but an interesting what if....

 

[Deltafan]

In the excellent French Secret Projects
Volume on Fighters there is a drawing
of a plane designated the Mirage IIIK but
in fact resembling a Mirage F2 or a fixed
wing AFVG. The drawing dates
from 1965.
Listening to M. Macron speaking
English on the Radio while I was reading
the book, I began wondering if the
plane was intended to woo the UK away
from the F4 order. The US had designated
the British F4 and F111 variants with a K.
Perhaps Dassault thought that the UK might
be persuaded to order a European plane as
part of its bid to join the EEC.
I know it seems a bit far out but the 1964 to 5
timeframe fits.

In the book "Le Mirage F1 et les Mirage de seconde génération à ailes en flèche", there si no Mirage IIIK, but a 3 views of a Mirage IIIF2 02, very (not exactly) similar to this IIIK as it has large apex gloves too. The IIIF2 02 is a derivative of the IIIF2 01 (later F2).
The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?

 

[Archibald]

The irony.....

In pondering what best fit the carrier force, the ideal came in as a Mirage G for a single engined option. Powered by a variant of the Spey's older relative, the Medway....or something along those lines.

Mirage F2 and it's relatives are rather good as a basis for supersonic Fighter and Attack machines instead of Jaguar and Lightning. Potentially cheaper.

Not a hope in hell of course, but an interesting what if....

A naval Mirage G very nearly happened in 1969-1970 and mind you, the Spey was considered, even if the TF306 and M53 were SNECMA daily jobs.
Source:
http://www.academie-air-espace.com/upload/doc/ressources/COMAERO%2010%20-%20Avions%20militaires%20I.pdf

 

[uk 75]

Unfortunately the UK and France were both
looking at VSTOL and VG as panaceas.
The Mirage F2 with Rolls Royce engines could have
been a European Phantom if it had come through the
middle. A real what-if.
It might even have been able to operate off carriers.

 

[JC Carbonel]

The K designation mistified me (and my contact at Dassault) as well. the blueprint came direct from Dassault's vaults and there was no brochure to go with it. Considering previous Dassault designation ("O for Ostralia"), I suggested K for Kiwi (NZ) , Korea or Kuwait. New Zealand , coming after "Ostralia", seemed very plausible to me. The aircraft did not look like a fighter for me, more of an Anti-Shipping or Strike aircraft.

JCC

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The Spey-engined Mirage IV (as alternative to the F-111 to replace the cancelled TSR.2) for the UK was designated IVK.

It is most logical to propose (in lieu of further information) that the IIIK was also proposed to the UK (and Spey-powered to boot). Makes more sense than New Zealand.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Also - Mirage IVK was proposed in 1965, the same year as the IIIK drawing.

 

[uk 75]

I agree that the Mirage IIIK would have
been proposed in the strike role. It would make sense as the Mirage IVK was offered for the high end of the
TFX requirement for the RAF but a P1154/low end Canberra replacement needed the Mirage IIIK.
Dassault wanted the UK to drop F111 in favour of Mirage,
but perhaps also reduce the F4 order to fighters only.
Perhaps Dassault was ahead of his political masters so no brochure was produced. Rolls Royce was also keen
on any projects to use its engine- F111 did not, the Mirage schemes did.
Fits the 1964 swirls for me.

 

[Archibald]

The Spey-engined Mirage IV (as alternative to the F-111 to replace the cancelled TSR.2) for the UK was designated IVK.

I DO know that google books is not a panacea by any mean, this said and duly aknowledged, a lot of peope and litterature called it "the spey Mirage"

Parliamentary Debates (Hansard).: House of Commons official report
Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons
H.M. Stationery Office, 1966

https://books.google.fr/books?id=Wk8eAQAAMAAJ&q=%22the+spey+mirage%22&dq=%22the+spey+mirage%22&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjduOiYrfDYAhWMblAKHcqZCNYQ6AEISjAF

 

[JC Carbonel]

I am not convinced the K-suffix designates "United Kingdom" at Dassault. F1C exported to Koweit were F1-CK so "K" could mean "Koweit". But we are talking of a pre six-days war project, so I doubt any Emirate would have been a customer. Korea is rather far outside Dassault's usual markets. So I tend to stick to my "Kiwis" by pure guesswork. That said, I am ready to accept a Mirage III K for UK ... if some written material supports it.

JCC

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I am not convinced the K-suffix designates "United Kingdom" at Dassault. F1C exported to Koweit were F1-CK so "K" could mean "Koweit". But we are talking of a pre six-days war project, so I doubt any Emirate would have been a customer. Korea is rather far outside Dassault's usual markets. So I tend to stick to my "Kiwis" by pure guesswork. That said, I am ready to accept a Mirage III K for UK ... if some written material supports it.

JCC

I think you are mistaken.

Mirage IIIK was drawn in exactly the same timeframe as the Spey-engined Mirage IVK for the UK. The Mirage IIIK has already been mentioned in previously published sources as a "Spey Mirage" project. I am pretty sure the chances of Dassault drawing up a new configuration 'Spey Mirage' project for New Zealand in 1965 is close to zero. In the absence of written material to support your Kiwi idea, the balance of probability is the it was drawn up to a UK requirement like the ground attack Hunter replacement (filled by the Harrier eventually).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

An article on Avon-engined Mirages by John Fricker in an old Air International states that a Spey-engined Mirage IIIK was proposed to the RAF as a Hunter replacement in 1964, "with the full backing of Rolls Royce".

Is that good enough?

 

[JC Carbonel]

But I am not discussing the existence of a Spey-Mirage. What I want to see is a Mirage IIIK (or Mirage IV K) (what ever the engine they put inside) associated with UK in a period publication.

JCC

 

[Michel Van]

But I am not discussing the existence of a Spey-Mirage. What I want to see is a Mirage IIIK (or Mirage IV K) (what ever the engine they put inside) associated with UK in a period publication.

JCC

I have like JCC, my doubts on Label "Mirage IIIK with K as is for UK" as Dassault designations
can it be that designation "Mirage IIIK" is British one. Either by Military, bureaucracy or at BAC ?
Last one could be responsible, because BAC wanted to build half of order Mirage, had deal went on.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Some of the period documentation I've seen on the BAC / Dassault Spey Mirage IV calls it the IV*. There was a Buccaneer proposal with a * as well, so this may be a British designation.

The Mirage IIIK is definitely mentioned as a Spey Mirage project for Hunter replacement, but John Fricker's source for the designation isn't documented.

 

[Archibald]

and thanks to the way search engines works, it is next to impossible to browse anything significant with a * inside. Or maybe "Mirage IV star" or whatever english word stands for *

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mirage+IIIK&source=lnms&tbm=bks

Some references from 1965 to a Mirage IIIK project to follow.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

At home now, I can check the books

The Mirage IIIK drawing in French Secret Projects is almost exactly the same design as the Mirage IIIF2 drawing from February 1965 first seen in the Liebert/Buyck book on the Mirage F1, with a shorter fuselage. Wing shape is the same. It seems to have a SNECMA ATAR 9K engine in the drawing presented (the text is very tiny and hard to read!) instead of a TF-306.

 

[Archibald]

Oh boy, I can see why so much confusion.

a) in the ordinary world of aviation history, it essentially boils down to Mirage III = delta

But

Wing shape is the same

Ok, can anybody answer an essential question: does that wing shape is a delta, or a swept wing ?

b) Mirage F2 was the first NON delta,

c) Yet from 1963 to 1965 it was called Mirage III F or Mirage III F2

d) Which was completely stupid and silly, and confusing.

e) From 1966 onwards it was called Mirage F2.

f) So ok, gimme a break and a lot of anti-headache medecine

g) We have so far, in this thread, discussed three different aircrafts, all three offered to the RAF in the 1965-66 time frame

- a standard Mirage III airframe, that is a delta wing, with a SPEY

- a Mirage F2 with an Atar or a TF306

- the "Spey Mirage" also called "Mirage IV K" or "Mirage IV * " which is a well documented, and an entirely different aircraft, and should not be discussed anymore. in this thread

h) So now back to square one.

The essential issue we have to solve is to determine whether the Mirage III K is

- a standard Mirage III airframe, that is a delta wing, with a SPEY, as a Hunter replacement, from the undocumented source

or

- a Mirage F2 with an Atar (or a TF306) and a swept wing ?

for the record, the Mirage F2 program was started in 1963 as a STOL backup to the VTOL Mirages, and flew on June 12 1966.

Dear God. We are reaching Monty Python level of absurdity with all those confusing Dassault proposals and names.

Imagine the scene
"Please call your master, Guy Marcel Dassault de Loimbard, and ask him if he wants to join in our quest for a British Mirage"
"Oh well, he has already one, so he is not very interested, you see. By the way, is your Mirage an African Mirage or an European Mirage ?"
"Well, I really don't know, but I'm quite sure he can carry a load of coconuts under its wings. Albatross !"
"What albatross ?"
"That's what we call it. The Albatross." Envoyez l'Albatross !. the What ? ah ouais."
(Sound of a catapult)
(a giant, wooden model of a Mirage III with an unknown engine get out of nowhere and drops a load of coconuts on the english knights before crashing down, crushing a couple of unfortunate riders that scream in terror )
"Run awaaaaay !"

 

[galgot]

I think uk 75 specified that the swall... sorry the Mirage he mentioned was a swept wing (F2 like) one.

 

[Archibald]

ROTFLMAO. Thank you. We are getting closer.

When trying to sell its Mirages, Dassault used to "fire by all tubes" that is, to propose many options to please the customer. By options, I mean every Mirage airframe he had on hand at this point of time, or even refurbishing old airframes in storage.
For example, to the Israelis long range strike requirement of 1965 he proposed
- a stripped-down Mirage IV
- the Mirage F2
- and finally he got the a deal with the Mirage V

So I think it possible that, trying to sell a tactical fighter to the RAF as a Hunter successor (against the Phantom), he made two separate proposals

- first, a Mirage F2 (whatever the engine, I don't care about the engine !)

- later, a Mirage III with a Spey. It might have been a straight derivative of this bird I already mentionned, the Mirage III-T.

The bottom line: one TF-30 is worth two J79s, even with less thrust, because as a single turbofan it burns less fuel, and the airframe can be smaller, and more streamlined. Hence any Spey or TF30 Mirage, if big enough, can beat a J79 Phantom
(of course you British rammed two Speys into a Phantom airframe just to piss off Dassault, but that's another story ! )

It is really a matter of engine diameter.

The Atar was 1050 mm (and so was the M53 !), a Spey is 1092 mm, but a JTF-10 / TF30 compressor is 1200 mm wide. Curiously enough, the J79 was 980 mm only, but was far hotter than an Atar, that's the reason why the Kfir was such a tight fit.

So, the standard Mirage III *ass* was tailored for a 1050 mm Atar but could eventually take a 1092 mm Spey.
BUT
As you can see, the 1200 mm wide TF30 was really at the extreme end. Still they managed to do it, and the Mirage III-T was born, but it really flew like a load of bricks - compressor stalls, mach 1.4 in the good days.

Thus, when the Mirage F2 fuselage was created, from 1963, it was designed from the very beginning for the 1200 mm wide TF30. Hence one could very well slide in place a 1092 mm Spey or a 1050 mm Atar into such a large *bottom*

The fuselages were NOT the same: the Mirage III-T was really a stock Mirage III airframe straight of the production line and heavily modified, and it didn't worked at all.
By contrast the Mirage F2 was designed, from the very beginning, for the TF30 - including much larger air intakes, air intakes having been a major issue on the III-T, they were redesigned many times because of compressor stalls.

You can see that while the Mirage III-T really looks obese, the Mirage F2 has a more balanced look. The virtue of being designed with the right engine from the drawing board on.

The Mirage F2 was not a Mirage IIIB fuselage with a different engine and swept wings. They were different airframes from the beginning. Even the canopy is different.

(and now my post sounds like Biggus Diggus speech from Life of Brian.
He has a wife, you know. She is called... Incontinentia... buttocks
(unfortunate guards explodes into laughter and are send dying as gladiators)

Oh well...

 

[Deltafan]

At home now, I can check the books

The Mirage IIIK drawing in French Secret Projects is almost exactly the same design as the Mirage IIIF2 drawing from February 1965 first seen in the Liebert/Buyck book on the Mirage F1, with a shorter fuselage. Wing shape is the same. It seems to have a SNECMA ATAR 9K engine in the drawing presented (the text is very tiny and hard to read!) instead of a TF-306.

Until then, I feared it, but now I'm sure : I write very very baldly in English :'( ;D

In the book "Le Mirage F1 et les Mirage de seconde génération à ailes en flèche", there si no Mirage IIIK, but a 3 views of a Mirage IIIF2 02, very (not exactly) similar to this IIIK as it has large apex gloves too. The IIIF2 02 is a derivative of the IIIF2 01 (later F2).
The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?

 

[Hood]

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=mirage+IIIK&source=lnms&tbm=bks
Some references from 1965 to a Mirage IIIK project to follow.

The snippet view for the Air Pictorial article seems to indicate a report in the Daily Telegraph as the source (is it the John Fricker source you mentioned?).
I've done an archive search for the The Times and the Daily Mirror with no matching result (sadly I haven't got access to an archive for the Telegraph). The Times does indeed mention the Spey Mirage aka Mirage IVK numerous times during 64-65 but nothing about the Mirage IIIK or Dassault offering the Mirage III or any other non-IV aircraft.

 

[Archibald]

In the book "Le Mirage F1 et les Mirage de seconde génération à ailes en flèche", there si no Mirage IIIK, but a 3 views of a Mirage IIIF2 02, very (not exactly) similar to this IIIK as it has large apex gloves too.

The IIIF2 02 is a derivative of the IIIF2 01 (later F2).

The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?

There was only one Mirage F2, the 01.
The 02 you describes and mentions was never build.
Here is what happened to it.
Thz Mirage F2 02 prototype contract to Dassault was cancelled, more exactly it was transformed into another contract for the Mirage F3 01. Two Mirage F3 prototypes were contracted to Dassault, were started, and then scrapped during construction, as the Mirage F1 prevailed.

http://www.academie-air-espace.com/upload/doc/ressources/COMAERO%2010_2%20-%20Bonnet%20Avions%20militaires%20II.pdf

Le 29 août 1966, intervient la commande du premier avion prototype Mirage F3 (n° 2) en remplacement du deuxième exemplaire précé demment commandé de Mirage III F2 ; réserve est faite sur le deuxième avion prototype et sur la cellule d'essais.

The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

this seems to confirms that the Mirage IIIK was, well, a Mirage III and not a Mirage F2.

Length of a Mirage IIIC was 14.77 m, the IIIE was 30 cm longer at 15 m. Crap, this is far longer than the III K length (14.16 m) you mention, perhaps because the Spey is shorter than an Atar 9 by 1 m ?

The snippet view for the Air Pictorial article

The Air Pictorial snippet has a date - February 1964. This eliminates the Mirage F2, as the program barely started by this point. Dassault got his Mirage F2 prototype contract in November 1963. https://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/passion/avions/dassault-militaires/mirage-iii-f2-f3/ (November 21, 1963)

By elimination, that early Mirage III K can only be a Mirage III airframe with a British engine, probably the Spey.

Here is my own take about the whole enchilada

In January 1964 Dassault proposes a Mirage III with Spey to Great Britain as a Hunter replacement, and call it Mirage III K.

Nothing happens.

One year and a half later, mid 1965, the "Spey Mirage IV" is proposed as a TSR-2 replacement, a saga that will last until February 1966 and overlaps with AFVG and Jaguar, which deal was inked on May 17, 1965.

Then, as if the AFVG and Jaguar and "Spey Mirage IV" were not enough, Dassault tries again the Hunter replacement against the Phantom, this time with a far better aircraft that the February 1964 proposal: they try to sell the Mirage III F2, which is a two seater, multirole strike fighter not unlike a Phantom in capabilities.
For some stupid reason, it is called Mirage III K, too, perhaps because "Mirage III F2 K" is too long, or maybe because Dassault think of "Mirage III" as a trademark, even if the two aircrafts (III and F2) have nothing in common.

(not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).
But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?

The 9K was specially created for the Mirage IVA, which flew in 1961, and was the first step on the way to the 9K50. The usual Mirage III had Atar 9B or 9C with far less thrust. It took some time before the Mirage III itself got the 9K.

As far as performance and weapon load goes, Hunter and Mirage III were light fighters while Mirage F2 and Phantom were "heavies" enough to be interim types before TSR-2 or F-111 or Spey Mirage IV or AFVG or RN Buccaneers or... something else.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Interesting post.

I have not seen any evidence that the Mirage IIIK was an ordinary delta Mirage III with a Spey engine. This was the era of the Mirage IIIF2 where a wholly new swept wing aircraft could be designated in the Mirage III series.

In this case, the reports of a' Spey engined Mirage IIIK' and the drawing of a Mirage IIIK with an Atar could both refer to the same 'Mirage with swept wings for ground attack' project.

In fact, if this is the case, potentially the K would not be for "UK" at all but perhaps "Smaller, ATAR 9K powered version of the Mirage IIIF2". Then the "Spey engined Mirage IIIK" project would be a Spey version of that reduced size ATAR 9K powered derivative of the Mirage IIIF2.

Again interestingly, I can't find any period reference to the Spey Mirage IV as Mirage IVK - its always called 'Spey Mirage' (e.g. Flight) or Mirage IV* (Project Cancelled) so far.

Its possible Mirage IVK was coined by modelers from the odd coincidence of the rival F-111K (for the UK) and the Mirage IIIK project.

JCC - can you read the dimensions of the IIIK from the drawing?

 

[Archibald]

I have not seen any evidence that the Mirage IIIK was an ordinary delta Mirage III with a Spey engine. This was the era of the Mirage IIIF2 where a wholly new swept wing aircraft could be designated in the Mirage III series.

In this case, the reports of a' Spey engined Mirage IIIK' and the drawing of a Mirage IIIK with an Atar could both refer to the same 'Mirage with swept wings for ground attack' project.

In fact, if this is the case, potentially the K would not be for "UK" at all but perhaps "Smaller, ATAR 9K powered version of the Mirage IIIF2". Then the "Spey engined Mirage IIIK" project would be a Spey version of that reduced size ATAR 9K powered derivative of the Mirage IIIF2.

You nailed it well. Both scenarios are equally plausible.

The bottom line is that
- Dassault had two fighters on the production line (the Mirage IV is out of this)
a) Mirage III E
b) Mirage F1
- Dassault had a boatload of prototypes (the Mirage G come later in 1968, the VSTOL are not concerned)
a) Mirage III-T
b) Mirage F2
c) Mirage F3
- There was three possible engines (well, possibly five, but the M53 did not existed yet, and I propose we let the J79 out of this !)
a) Atar
b) TF306
c) Spey

In the end that's five different aircrafts with three possible engines, total 15 combinations, of which some of the TF30 are unworkable (toooo big, you're fired !)
Let's say a dozen of possible combinations.
Not counting different sizes and weights according to different missions.

Just think about the Mirage F2, G and F3: all build from the same fuselage (broadly, from the F2 that come first) yet so different in the end. Even the F2 and F3 were markedly different. The F3 was essentially the F1 26 ft small wing on a F2 big fuselage !

Dear God.

The rationale part in myself makes me appreciates you Anglo-Saxon extremely rationale way of naming different variant of aircrafts, as shown by Joe Baugher website
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4.html
THIS. IS. RATIONAL.
Had Baugher tried a similar ranking with Mirage subtypes, he would blew an aneurysm.

Although Craig Goebel was brave enough to try and tackle, and finally sort out all those 80 different Mirage III sub-variants in his website, Air Vectors
http://www.airvectors.net/idx_cdso.html

Then again, he only got operational types, not prototypes and paper projects. Even the flurry of prototypes in the late 60's confused him - we got some e-mail exchange recently about it.

The bottom line is that Dassault naming system is a total and absolute nightmare, only matched by Su-27 variants

Cheers !

 

[Deltafan]

In the book "Le Mirage F1 et les Mirage de seconde génération à ailes en flèche", there si no Mirage IIIK, but a 3 views of a Mirage IIIF2 02, very (not exactly) similar to this IIIK as it has large apex gloves too.

The IIIF2 02 is a derivative of the IIIF2 01 (later F2).

The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?

There was only one Mirage F2, the 01.
The 02 you describes and mentions was never build.

I write not only very, very baldly English, but very, very, ..., very, very (etc.) baldly because I know that...

I never wrote that there was a build F2 02, but a 3 views of this plane in the book I'm talking about... (and no book writes that there was a build F2 02...)

The IIIF2 02 is longer (17.60 m) than the IIIK (14.16) and it has a TF 306 engine (not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).

this seems to confirms that the Mirage IIIK was, well, a Mirage III and not a Mirage F2.

Length of a Mirage IIIC was 14.77 m, the IIIE was 30 cm longer at 15 m. Crap, this is far longer than the III K length (14.16 m) you mention, perhaps because the Spey is shorter than an Atar 9 by 1 m ?

The Mirage IIIK I'm talking about is the Mirage IIIK drawing in the book French Secret Project I. It's an original drawing of a F2 02 like plane. This original drawing is named IIIK on the original drawing, not by a caption of the author. 14.16 m is what is given by the author in the characteristics of this IIIK because the original drawing is too little to read the length written on it.

(not the Atar 9K of the IIIK).
But maybe the "K" of the IIIK comes simply from the Atar 9K ?

The 9K was specially created for the Mirage IVA, which flew in 1961, and was the first step on the way to the 9K50. The usual Mirage III had Atar 9B or 9C with far less thrust. It took some time before the Mirage III itself got the 9K.

I know all that.
It was only a hypothesis (absolutely not a certainty) at the beginning of the discussion...

 

[Deltafan]

JCC - can you read the dimensions of the IIIK from the drawing?

In page 148 of FSP I, there is the (pink) drawing of the Mirage IIIK

In page 149 of FSP I, there are the (blue) characteristics of the Mirage IIIK : Length 46ft 5.5in (14.16m).


I tried to read what is wrote on the drawing :

longueur fuselage (fuselage length) 14.16 m.

It seems that the total length is a little more with the vertical fin.


But, of course, if M. Carbonel has the original drawing, it will be better...

 

[uk 75]

I think I have the answer to my question.
In 1974 Kuwait ordered the F1 Mirage in CK and BK versions. In 1965 it ordered the Lightning from BAC but with an additional Ground Attack role. The 1965 date suggests that the Mirage IIIK in FSP1 is indeed a proposal aimed at Kuwait. But overtaken by the Lightning order so no brochure or model.
Shame, it would have looked good in RAF an RN colours.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

JCC - can you read the dimensions of the IIIK from the drawing?

In page 148 of FSP I, there is the (pink) drawing of the Mirage IIIK

In page 149 of FSP I, there are the (blue) characteristics of the Mirage IIIK : Length 46ft 5.5in (14.16m).


I tried to read what is wrote on the drawing :

longueur fuselage (fuselage length) 14.16 m.

It seems that the total length is a little more with the vertical fin.


But, of course, if M. Carbonel has the original drawing, it will be better...

That's a lot smaller than the IIIF2 then

Ralph, the Mirage IIIK is very unlikely to be specifically for Kuwait.

It seems from the attached article

Mirage IIIK >> Mirage IIIE2 >> Mirage F1

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/passion/aircraft/military-dassault-aircraft/mirage-f1/

The Mirage III E 2, a single-seater with a sweptback wing like the Mirage III F2 and equipped with a Snecma Atar 9 K jet engine exactly like the Mirage IV A, was primarily intended for export.

The Mirage IIIK is therefore no more and no less than a predecessor to the Mirage F1, a ground attack swept-wing Mirage with Atar 9K sharing the general layout of the Mirage IIIF2 but smaller.

Which doesn't answer why its called IIIK of course...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So Mirage IV* designation wasn't in Project Cancelled - must be faulty memory - one source is the Ian Allan "Mirage" by Paul Jackson.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Bill Gunston calls the Spey Mirage IV project "Mirage IVS" all through "Bombers of the West".