Mirage F2 and F3
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Deltafan
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I don't understand what is the question (and even if there is a question).
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blackkite
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I can't understand the relation between Mirage Ⅲ F2, Mirage Ⅲ F2 02 and Mirage F2.
About Mirage Ⅲ F2 02 three side view drawing, I found another drawing in Le Mirage F1 Vol.1 page 23.
Was there a plan for two seater Mirage F3?
It's difficult for me to read Le Mirage F1 Vol.1.
About Mirage Ⅲ F2 02 three side view drawing, I found another drawing in Le Mirage F1 Vol.1 page 23.
Was there a plan for two seater Mirage F3?
It's difficult for me to read Le Mirage F1 Vol.1.
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Deltafan
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OK. I understand. I don't have time to answer exactly now about the tangle of IIIF/F/F2/F3 versions. I will respond this evening.
-
Yes. On page 17 of the Fana article posted by @hesham it says 66 single seaters + 34 two seaters were planned, for a total of 100 Mirage F3s.
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Well, I haven't finished my research. If the explanations are simple in Alexis Rocher's article on the Mirage F2, those in the book on the Mirage F1 show much more complexity (even in French...) on the Mirage F2 02 and Mirage F3 (sometimes with differences with the Fana article...), whose names are mixed over time, not to mention the constant changes in the decisions of the French military administration... I have to try again to sort this out correctly, but now I have to go to sleep...
Deltafan
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Well, I try to answer (sorry in advance for my bad English) with a mixture of the book on the Mirage F1 and the article by Alexis Rocher in the May 2021 Fana.
I hope you don't have too much of a headache at the end of reading this very, very complicated story...
At the beginning of the 1960s, the French Air Force wants a new aircraft to succeed the Mirage III and is looking for a long-range attack aircraft, with limited takeoff and landing distances. To obtain better range, a turbofan engine is preferred (the choice will be the PW JTF 10 and its developments).
Mirage IIIT2 timeline:
-On July 30, 1962, the first project is the engine testbed Mirage IIIT2 (the engine testbed Mirage IIIT was foreseen for TF104 and 106, the engine testbed IIIT2 is foreseen for the TF306): two types of studies are carried out: delta wing only or delta wing with horizontal stabilizers in back. Because of limited takeoff and landing distances, delta wing with horizontal stabilizers in back will be chosen. (The Mirage IIIT2 project is definitively canceled on November 4, 1964).
Mirage IIIF timeline:
-A version of the Mirage IIIT2 project is then considered: the Mirage IIIF project (16.09.63, SNECMA TF 106 engine), no longer with a delta wing (with horizontal stabilizers in back), but with a swept (in French: en Flèche) wing (with horizontal stabilizers in back).
-On October 1963, one of the first studies of the Mirage IIIF appeared, notably with a small air intake at the root of the fin and a quasi-delta wing.
This drawing, called Le Mirage III F2 01 above the drawing and Mirage IIIF below the drawing..., in Le Mirage F1 book, page 22, corresponds to the one IIIF from November 1963 that you presented to us in your post above.
-When the IIIF project evolves, the air intake at the root of the fin disappears.
-There are too a Mirage IIIF' project (with longer wingspan, wings with some features of those of the F-8 Crusader, and more forward air intakes) and a Mirage IIIF" project (a little shorter than the IIIF').
-Around January 1964, a design of the IIIF shows the return of the small air intake at the roots of the fin and the wing of the plane ressembles that of the flying future Mirage F2.
-On January 16 1964, order for the building of a Mirage IIIF.
Mirage IIIF2 / F2 timeline: (IIIF2 and F2 designate the same aircraft, the F2 designation becoming the most common over time)
-With a TF 306 engine, the IIIF project becomes the IIIF2 project (24.04.1964 for Le Mirage F1 book, 20.07.64 for Le Fana article). it is foreseen to initially receive a YTF30-P1 engine and, later, the TF306. It is it that will evolve into the flying Mirage IIIF2/F2 01 (main flight 12.06.1966).
-On February 10, 1965, two new testbed (engine, navigation and weapon system for the VTOL Mirage IIIV) prototypes of the Mirage IIIF2 are launched by the French armed forces minister: IIIF2 02 and IIIF2 03 (the first prototype, the future flying IIIF2/F2, remains as the 01). It's a design of this IIIF2 02 that is shown with leading-edge root extensions on the drawing in the book Le Mirage F1 page 23.
-On May 17, 1965 : French-British agreement on the future SEPECAT Jaguar and the future failed AFVG. We know that the Mirage IIIF2/F2 01 is under construction.
-From january 1964 to June 1967, there is a Mirage IIIF2J/F2J version considered for Israel: Panther / Asmodée project. At first (apparently before September 1965 according to the article of Le Fana) with a different airframe (too expensive), then (apparently from September 1965, according to the article of Le Fana) with a simplified F2 airframe. According to the book Le Mirage F1, the choice of a simplified F2 airframe comes from Dassault, according to Le Fana article this choice come from the Israeli side...
-Article Fana : On September 20, 1965, the two Mirage F2 (the Mirage F1 book says that the name was already F3...) 02 and 03 prototypes, and an aircraft cell for static tests, are confirmed. But the contract is temporarily limited to one prototype (IIIF2 02) and the aircraft cell for static tests. According to Le Mirage F1 book, the Mirage IIIF2 02 prototype is foreseen in case of failure of the AFVG program. According to Le Fana article this order is only in the hope of an order from Israel.
After that, three options ( called either F2 or F3...) are in competition :
1/17.04m lang, 36 m² wing area, 10.50 m wingspan
2/15.70m lang, 30 m² wing area
3/15.40m lang, 27 m² wing area
I think that the Mirage F2 n°2 from November 1965 (17.8 m lang, 10.5m wingspan) that you show us in your post above is one of the design from this time, but that was ultimately not chosen to represent the option 1.
-In January 1966, the Mirage IIIF2/F2 01 is transported to Melun Villaroche airport.
-January 20, 1966: Financial study on an order for 50 F2s with three prototypes 02 (aerodynamic tests), 03 (navigation and weapons system) and 04 (missiles and nuclear weapons).
A little after, there is a study on 50-60 aircrafts and 4 prototypes. At this stage, the option 2 (15,7 m lang, 30 m²) is chosen.
Mirage F3 timeline:
-On March 7, 1966, France wants to leave NATO's integrated command.
For the French Armée de l'air, the interception becomes the first mission. Its choice is evolving toward the option 3 (15.4 m lang, 27 m²), that is chosen. But, unlike the previous aircrafts, the new aircaft will be a one-seater and it is definitively called F3. A two-seater simplier version of this F3 is considered too.
-In June 1966, Dassault makes a proposal for 150 F3 with TF 306E engine.
-On August 29, 1966: the order for the second prototype of the Mirage F2 (IIIF2 02) is replaced by that of two F3 (02 and 03 [why ? The IIIF2/F2 01 is considéred as 01? ]) prototypes and an aicraft cell for static test are ordered. As said by @H_K, 66 single seaters + 34 two seaters were planned, for a total of 100Mirage F3s.
There is a drawing of the two-seater version of the Mirage F3 in the book Le Mirage F1, page36.
-On September 27, 1966: additions are made: 7 prototypes (02 to 08 [Which seems to confirm that IIIF2/F2 01 is considered as 01]) are foreseen. 100 to 150 production aircrafts (more or less the 7 prototypes ?) are foreseen.
The drawing of the Mirage F3 that you show us in your post above is from this time (9.04 m wingspan, as foreseen in September 1966),
-On June 12, 1966: main flight of the Mirage IIIF2/F2 01.
-On March 31, 1967, manufacturing of the Mirage F3 02 (confirmation that the 01 is the flying F2) is stopped (too expensive).
The photo that you show us in your post above is the layout model of the Mirage F3 (not a F3 prototype or the static test cell).
-On April 20, 1967: study and building of the two F3 prototypes (02 and 03) and the aircraft cell for static test are terminated.
-On November 23, 1967, the F3 program is definitively cancelled (the cheaper Mirage F1 wins).
I hope you don't have too much of a headache at the end of reading this very, very complicated story...
At the beginning of the 1960s, the French Air Force wants a new aircraft to succeed the Mirage III and is looking for a long-range attack aircraft, with limited takeoff and landing distances. To obtain better range, a turbofan engine is preferred (the choice will be the PW JTF 10 and its developments).
Mirage IIIT2 timeline:
-On July 30, 1962, the first project is the engine testbed Mirage IIIT2 (the engine testbed Mirage IIIT was foreseen for TF104 and 106, the engine testbed IIIT2 is foreseen for the TF306): two types of studies are carried out: delta wing only or delta wing with horizontal stabilizers in back. Because of limited takeoff and landing distances, delta wing with horizontal stabilizers in back will be chosen. (The Mirage IIIT2 project is definitively canceled on November 4, 1964).
Mirage IIIF timeline:
-A version of the Mirage IIIT2 project is then considered: the Mirage IIIF project (16.09.63, SNECMA TF 106 engine), no longer with a delta wing (with horizontal stabilizers in back), but with a swept (in French: en Flèche) wing (with horizontal stabilizers in back).
-On October 1963, one of the first studies of the Mirage IIIF appeared, notably with a small air intake at the root of the fin and a quasi-delta wing.
This drawing, called Le Mirage III F2 01 above the drawing and Mirage IIIF below the drawing..., in Le Mirage F1 book, page 22, corresponds to the one IIIF from November 1963 that you presented to us in your post above.
-When the IIIF project evolves, the air intake at the root of the fin disappears.
-There are too a Mirage IIIF' project (with longer wingspan, wings with some features of those of the F-8 Crusader, and more forward air intakes) and a Mirage IIIF" project (a little shorter than the IIIF').
-Around January 1964, a design of the IIIF shows the return of the small air intake at the roots of the fin and the wing of the plane ressembles that of the flying future Mirage F2.
-On January 16 1964, order for the building of a Mirage IIIF.
Mirage IIIF2 / F2 timeline: (IIIF2 and F2 designate the same aircraft, the F2 designation becoming the most common over time)
-With a TF 306 engine, the IIIF project becomes the IIIF2 project (24.04.1964 for Le Mirage F1 book, 20.07.64 for Le Fana article). it is foreseen to initially receive a YTF30-P1 engine and, later, the TF306. It is it that will evolve into the flying Mirage IIIF2/F2 01 (main flight 12.06.1966).
-On February 10, 1965, two new testbed (engine, navigation and weapon system for the VTOL Mirage IIIV) prototypes of the Mirage IIIF2 are launched by the French armed forces minister: IIIF2 02 and IIIF2 03 (the first prototype, the future flying IIIF2/F2, remains as the 01). It's a design of this IIIF2 02 that is shown with leading-edge root extensions on the drawing in the book Le Mirage F1 page 23.
-On May 17, 1965 : French-British agreement on the future SEPECAT Jaguar and the future failed AFVG. We know that the Mirage IIIF2/F2 01 is under construction.
-From january 1964 to June 1967, there is a Mirage IIIF2J/F2J version considered for Israel: Panther / Asmodée project. At first (apparently before September 1965 according to the article of Le Fana) with a different airframe (too expensive), then (apparently from September 1965, according to the article of Le Fana) with a simplified F2 airframe. According to the book Le Mirage F1, the choice of a simplified F2 airframe comes from Dassault, according to Le Fana article this choice come from the Israeli side...
-Article Fana : On September 20, 1965, the two Mirage F2 (the Mirage F1 book says that the name was already F3...) 02 and 03 prototypes, and an aircraft cell for static tests, are confirmed. But the contract is temporarily limited to one prototype (IIIF2 02) and the aircraft cell for static tests. According to Le Mirage F1 book, the Mirage IIIF2 02 prototype is foreseen in case of failure of the AFVG program. According to Le Fana article this order is only in the hope of an order from Israel.
After that, three options ( called either F2 or F3...) are in competition :
1/17.04m lang, 36 m² wing area, 10.50 m wingspan
2/15.70m lang, 30 m² wing area
3/15.40m lang, 27 m² wing area
I think that the Mirage F2 n°2 from November 1965 (17.8 m lang, 10.5m wingspan) that you show us in your post above is one of the design from this time, but that was ultimately not chosen to represent the option 1.
-In January 1966, the Mirage IIIF2/F2 01 is transported to Melun Villaroche airport.
-January 20, 1966: Financial study on an order for 50 F2s with three prototypes 02 (aerodynamic tests), 03 (navigation and weapons system) and 04 (missiles and nuclear weapons).
A little after, there is a study on 50-60 aircrafts and 4 prototypes. At this stage, the option 2 (15,7 m lang, 30 m²) is chosen.
Mirage F3 timeline:
-On March 7, 1966, France wants to leave NATO's integrated command.
For the French Armée de l'air, the interception becomes the first mission. Its choice is evolving toward the option 3 (15.4 m lang, 27 m²), that is chosen. But, unlike the previous aircrafts, the new aircaft will be a one-seater and it is definitively called F3. A two-seater simplier version of this F3 is considered too.
-In June 1966, Dassault makes a proposal for 150 F3 with TF 306E engine.
-On August 29, 1966: the order for the second prototype of the Mirage F2 (IIIF2 02) is replaced by that of two F3 (02 and 03 [why ? The IIIF2/F2 01 is considéred as 01? ]) prototypes and an aicraft cell for static test are ordered. As said by @H_K, 66 single seaters + 34 two seaters were planned, for a total of 100Mirage F3s.
There is a drawing of the two-seater version of the Mirage F3 in the book Le Mirage F1, page36.
-On September 27, 1966: additions are made: 7 prototypes (02 to 08 [Which seems to confirm that IIIF2/F2 01 is considered as 01]) are foreseen. 100 to 150 production aircrafts (more or less the 7 prototypes ?) are foreseen.
The drawing of the Mirage F3 that you show us in your post above is from this time (9.04 m wingspan, as foreseen in September 1966),
-On June 12, 1966: main flight of the Mirage IIIF2/F2 01.
-On March 31, 1967, manufacturing of the Mirage F3 02 (confirmation that the 01 is the flying F2) is stopped (too expensive).
The photo that you show us in your post above is the layout model of the Mirage F3 (not a F3 prototype or the static test cell).
-On April 20, 1967: study and building of the two F3 prototypes (02 and 03) and the aircraft cell for static test are terminated.
-On November 23, 1967, the F3 program is definitively cancelled (the cheaper Mirage F1 wins).
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Fun fact: the Mirage G was specifically designed to be a F2 clone "except with VG wings". To allow direct comparison between the two. Something (AFAIK) never done elsewhere: US, UK, USSR.
Put otherwise: Dassault could have chopped up both F2 and unfinished F3 and rebuild them as additional Mirage G. Creting a mini squadron.
And since in summer 1969 the USN contacted Dassault and told them they wanted a P.1127 -like Mirage G test squadron, at Patuxent river... because VFAX...
Put otherwise: Dassault could have chopped up both F2 and unfinished F3 and rebuild them as additional Mirage G. Creting a mini squadron.
And since in summer 1969 the USN contacted Dassault and told them they wanted a P.1127 -like Mirage G test squadron, at Patuxent river... because VFAX...
blackkite
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According to Japanese source,
The Dassault Mirage F2 is a French interceptor project studied by Dassault from 1963 to 19671.
The origins of the Mirage III F2 date back to 1963. The French Air Force was working on the concept of an aircraft capable of low-altitude penetration in all weather conditions and capable of intercepting at supersonic speeds. A short runway can be used in a basic arrangement with an approach speed of 140 knots (260 km/h).
On November 21, 1963, the Marcel Dassault Aeronautical Society signed a contract to study a prototype named Mirage III F with a Snecma TF106 turbojet, derived from the American Pratt & Whitney TF30.
In designing the aircraft, Jean-Jacques Samant's team inherited the structure of the Dassault Mirage 5, leaving aside the delta type common to the General Aeronatic Marcel Dassault aircraft of the time, adopting a new type of high-lift wing (arrow of 55) and placing it in a higher position. The team also planned to install a horizontal stabilizer low in the fuselage, a first for Dassault. This combination of wing and tail allowed the Army to obtain the following characteristics sought in an aircraft:
• High-speed flight
• Relatively short landing distance.
Jean-Jacques Saman's team then proposed the aircraft, which is now named the Mirage III In 1965, the military ordered three two-seater prototypes, which have now been renamed the Mirage F2. Only one aircraft is built and will fly for the first time. June 12, 1966 with test pilot Jean Couleau. Six months later, the plane reached a speed of Mach 2. The aircraft demonstrated its ability to use a short runway by landing at 480 meters.
In May 1966, the state plans Mirage III ADAV and Mirage III AGV (Variable Geometry Aircraft or Dassault Mirage G) were launched, and the General Staff wanted the Mirage F2 to become an interceptor aircraft.
Subsequently, the aircraft underwent modifications, including new equipment and weapons, and the engine was changed to a single Snecma TF306E engine producing 10 tons of thrust and was renamed the Mirage F3.
However, the twin-engine jet Mirage G opened up new possibilities, and the market for the Mirage F3 was discontinued in April 1967 as the General Staff was considering a twin-engine interceptor.
France's economic losses are 98 million French francs (2022 value of 117 million euros) for F2 and 73 million francs (87 million euros) for F32.
The result of this program was to be used for the lightweight Dassault Mirage F1, which would eventually become the standard interceptor of choice in the 1970s.
The Dassault Mirage F2 is a French interceptor project studied by Dassault from 1963 to 19671.
The origins of the Mirage III F2 date back to 1963. The French Air Force was working on the concept of an aircraft capable of low-altitude penetration in all weather conditions and capable of intercepting at supersonic speeds. A short runway can be used in a basic arrangement with an approach speed of 140 knots (260 km/h).
On November 21, 1963, the Marcel Dassault Aeronautical Society signed a contract to study a prototype named Mirage III F with a Snecma TF106 turbojet, derived from the American Pratt & Whitney TF30.
In designing the aircraft, Jean-Jacques Samant's team inherited the structure of the Dassault Mirage 5, leaving aside the delta type common to the General Aeronatic Marcel Dassault aircraft of the time, adopting a new type of high-lift wing (arrow of 55) and placing it in a higher position. The team also planned to install a horizontal stabilizer low in the fuselage, a first for Dassault. This combination of wing and tail allowed the Army to obtain the following characteristics sought in an aircraft:
• High-speed flight
• Relatively short landing distance.
Jean-Jacques Saman's team then proposed the aircraft, which is now named the Mirage III In 1965, the military ordered three two-seater prototypes, which have now been renamed the Mirage F2. Only one aircraft is built and will fly for the first time. June 12, 1966 with test pilot Jean Couleau. Six months later, the plane reached a speed of Mach 2. The aircraft demonstrated its ability to use a short runway by landing at 480 meters.
In May 1966, the state plans Mirage III ADAV and Mirage III AGV (Variable Geometry Aircraft or Dassault Mirage G) were launched, and the General Staff wanted the Mirage F2 to become an interceptor aircraft.
Subsequently, the aircraft underwent modifications, including new equipment and weapons, and the engine was changed to a single Snecma TF306E engine producing 10 tons of thrust and was renamed the Mirage F3.
However, the twin-engine jet Mirage G opened up new possibilities, and the market for the Mirage F3 was discontinued in April 1967 as the General Staff was considering a twin-engine interceptor.
France's economic losses are 98 million French francs (2022 value of 117 million euros) for F2 and 73 million francs (87 million euros) for F32.
The result of this program was to be used for the lightweight Dassault Mirage F1, which would eventually become the standard interceptor of choice in the 1970s.
blackkite
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Mirage III F2 F3: origins, characteristics and performance data
On June 12, 1966, at Istres, Jean Coureau took off in a Mirage III F2 01, based on a Mirage III and equipped with a sharply sweptback and lift augmented high wing.
www.dassault-aviation.com
Mirage F1: origins, characteristics and performance data
The F1 interceptor can fly at over Mach 2 and land at 125 knots. It completed its maiden flight on December 23, 1966 at Melun-Villaroche.
www.dassault-aviation.com
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blackkite
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The basic design of the F1 fighter is the same as that of the Mirage III F2 (French version), which was a delta-wing aircraft with a tailed high-wing arrangement and trailing edge swept angle, and the Mirage III F3, which changed the -F2 to a single-seat design. The -F2 was developed as a "low-altitude high-speed penetration fighter-bomber" with a high-thrust engine in a fuselage shape that eliminated the difficulties of the aforementioned tailless delta type, and a two-seat crew arrangement in a row, and the -F3 was developed as a "rapid reaction high-speed interceptor" with high short-range takeoff performance and climb power based on the design of the -F2. Based on the design of the F2 and F3, the F1 fighter is designed as a so-called "Mirage III with a revised wing design" that can perform a wide range of missions from interception to air superiority and ground support (so-called "multi-role aircraft"), and as an aircraft more suitable for those missions by improving low-altitude flight performance.( Wikiwand)
Crap, forgot the Sukhois (7 to 22). Fair enough.
As for the F2 / F3 got a different story. Started in 1963-66 with the F2 for strike, Israel being interested. The F2 flew in June 1966 but the context was rapidly evolving. As, when France partially got out of NATO (spring 1966), most immediate need switched to an interceptor. F3 was created as an interceptor single seat F2: with the Atar, subscale F1 as backup.
Which was quite a wise move, a the TF306 was not only a foreign engine (De Gaulle: meh) but also a rather expansive one. So sometime in spring 1967, after the F1 flew (23/12/1966) and before any F3 could be finished, the F3 was canned.
Source: COMAERO, page 76
In the F3 vs F1 decision, the F1 got the edge as its engine was cheaper at a time when France had way too much committments: notably Jaguar and AFVG, on top of proliferating Mirage types (VSTOL then swept wing then VG then Mirage IV successors)
The F1 was a fine plane and certainly the correct choice, considering the chaotic next decade until the 2000 was chosen. It's a pity however that the M53, started in 1968, was not fully planned-integrated into the F1 development from the beginning. F1-M53 only returned in 1972-73, as a kind of afterthought and thanks to Aéronavale interest circa 1970-72.
Had the M53 been fully integrated into the F1 production and upgrades, right of 1968, it would have had more time to sweep the LWF market before the F-16 crushed it: after 1975.
As for the F2 / F3 got a different story. Started in 1963-66 with the F2 for strike, Israel being interested. The F2 flew in June 1966 but the context was rapidly evolving. As, when France partially got out of NATO (spring 1966), most immediate need switched to an interceptor. F3 was created as an interceptor single seat F2: with the Atar, subscale F1 as backup.
Which was quite a wise move, a the TF306 was not only a foreign engine (De Gaulle: meh) but also a rather expansive one. So sometime in spring 1967, after the F1 flew (23/12/1966) and before any F3 could be finished, the F3 was canned.
Source: COMAERO, page 76
In the F3 vs F1 decision, the F1 got the edge as its engine was cheaper at a time when France had way too much committments: notably Jaguar and AFVG, on top of proliferating Mirage types (VSTOL then swept wing then VG then Mirage IV successors)
The F1 was a fine plane and certainly the correct choice, considering the chaotic next decade until the 2000 was chosen. It's a pity however that the M53, started in 1968, was not fully planned-integrated into the F1 development from the beginning. F1-M53 only returned in 1972-73, as a kind of afterthought and thanks to Aéronavale interest circa 1970-72.
Had the M53 been fully integrated into the F1 production and upgrades, right of 1968, it would have had more time to sweep the LWF market before the F-16 crushed it: after 1975.
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blackkite
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Sorry dimensions of this F2 drawing are mistake.
These dimensions are almost F1 size.
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BlueRooster57
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I see 3 pylons on each wing, are there any under-fuselage hardpoints? and what weapons would it use. Similar to F1, but does it take R530s? or just Magics?
blackkite
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Hi F2.
Source :
www.airhistory.net
and eBay.
Source :
Aircraft Photo of 01 | Dassault Mirage F2 | France - Air Force | AirHistory.net #180976
Aircraft photo of 01 - Dassault Mirage F2 - France - Air Force, taken by AirHistory.net Photo Archive over France between 18 November 1967 and 13 January 1973. After the Mirage IIIV VTOL fighter project, Dassault built a swept-wing prototype powered by one P&W TF30 engine, the Mirage IIIF2 or...
and eBay.
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