MBDA' Brimstone

timmymagic said:
To be fair we had to do so by a certain date to comply with the Convention.

A convention I'm afraid to say we should leave....cluster munitions are massively effective, and tying our hands behind our back whilst the likes of Russia, China and Iran continue to use them and manufacture is insane...perhaps a no-first use policy could be applied...



Only prior to the signing of the Convention. BL755 were supplied in the main in the 80's and 90's.
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The BL755 requires a low level approach and direct overflight of the target. Very effective at getting your own aircraft shot down. Even in the 1990s, it was clear that a medium altitude and guided delivery was necessary to keep out of the way of MANPADS. The RAF currently has no suitable platform for the BL755 and they had no inclination or resources to turn it into the equivalent of the American WCMD back in the 90s or 00s.

In any case, the ongoing conflict doesn’t feature massed armor formations and the pilots are even using pitch up maneuvers to fire unguided rocket. They’re too scared to maintain a line of sight with a target let alone fly directly over it. Looking back, the low level use of the BL755 would have been quite dangerous even during the late Cold War. Not that it mattered because RAF Germany would have only been active for a brief while before the Soviet-American conflict went full on “strategic.”

It’s also worth remembering that Yugoslavia was a major export/licensed production customer for the BL755 and we all know how that country ended up. This is why cluster munitions and land mines were banned by most of Europe. At the time, the focus was on expeditionary warfare with a humanitarian political motivation. It didn’t hurt that the BL755 was obsolete anyway.
 
TinWing said:
In any case, the ongoing conflict doesn’t feature massed armor formations and the pilots are even using pitch up maneuvers to fire unguided rocket.
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The RBL755 would've been handy for slaughtering massed Russian infantry formations in the Russians meat-wave tactics.
 
TinWing said:
The BL755 requires a low level approach and direct overflight of the target. Very effective at getting your own aircraft shot down. Even in the 1990s, it was clear that a medium altitude and guided delivery was necessary to keep out of the way of MANPADS. The RAF currently has no suitable platform for the BL755 and they had no inclination or resources to turn it into the equivalent of the American WCMD back in the 90s or 00s.
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Resources I understand, but not the lack of inclination to make a WCMD...
 
NMaude said:
The RBL755 would've been handy for slaughtering massed Russian infantry formations in the Russians meat-wave tactics.
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I can't imagine imagine a more wasteful means of employing the Ukrainian airforce.

You'd have to have aircraft loitering at tree-top level, within potential engagement range of significant number of Russian SAM and SPAAG systems, in the hope that they would get the calls for emergency air support in time, for being forced to directly over the FEBA, or potentially into the engagement zones of the SAM systems if tossing the bombs, and risk losing irreplaceable aircraft and pilots.

If you want to stop Russian infantry send artillery shells, guns and spare barrels.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Resources I understand, but not the lack of inclination to make a WCMD...
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They did. See the below history section on Brimstone...see SWAARM and Damocles...

UK investigated lots of options to avoid overflying enemy armour formations....the answer for the UK was not to overfly...so Brimstone was developed. The US answer was WCMD on CBU-97.

I think the UK made the right decision...

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

Brimstone Guided Missile - Think Defence

Brimstone is a potent and precision-guided anti-armour missile that arms RAF Typhoons and Protectors
www.thinkdefence.co.uk www.thinkdefence.co.uk

TinWing said:
The BL755 requires a low level approach and direct overflight of the target. Very effective at getting your own aircraft shot down. Even in the 1990s, it was clear that a medium altitude and guided delivery was necessary to keep out of the way of MANPADS. The RAF currently has no suitable platform for the BL755 and they had no inclination or resources to turn it into the equivalent of the American WCMD back in the 90s or 00s.
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The sub-munitions from the BL755 would be rather useful at the moment....as drone dropped, or FPV carried, payloads...the Ukrainians have been after Rockeye from the US for this very reason...

Some on the JP-233 submunitions would be rather useful as well...the mine was rather un-pleasant...

CRV-7 with MPSM would be a very useful payload for Ukrainian helicopters or SU-25 doing ballistic arc attacks...

Obviously M26 and the 155 DPICM would be gratefully received...

TinWing said:
It’s also worth remembering that Yugoslavia was a major export/licensed production customer for the BL755 and we all know how that country ended up.
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Yep...they built an MRL using rocket boosted BL-755... ;)
 
timmymagic said:
They did. See the below history section on Brimstone...see SWAARM and Damocles...

UK investigated lots of options to avoid overflying enemy armour formations....the answer for the UK was not to overfly...so Brimstone was developed. The US answer was WCMD on CBU-97.
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WCMD means you can release from high enough to stay out of MANPADS/AAA range, and probably let the WCMDs glide in from outside mobile-SAM range because you're at altitude.
 
Scott Kenny said:
WCMD means you can release from high enough to stay out of MANPADS/AAA range, and probably let the WCMDs glide in from outside mobile-SAM range because you're at altitude.
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Unless they've got Buk or S-300...which the armoured formations of the main adversary would be covered by.
 
Brimstone has been rather shy in Ukraine with little seen....but there is a brief glimpse in the below video from 0.52 seconds in of a Brimstone launch and the effect on a BMP post strike. The video is from the 8th SSO, who we know have been using Brimstone for some time. Interestingly the platform carrying it is blurred out. Its likely that the launch platform continues to be a discreet, disguised setup (hence the blurring) its unclear if it is the previous Gazelle van setup, from what we can see from the blurring it appears to be unlikely though.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775381840024473740
View: https://twitter.com/markito0171/status/1775381840024473740
 
TF . . . did that guy just aim a boot at the FPV drone . . . ?

cheers,
Robin.
 
timmymagic said:
They did. See the below history section on Brimstone...see SWAARM and Damocles...

UK investigated lots of options to avoid overflying enemy armour formations....the answer for the UK was not to overfly...so Brimstone was developed. The US answer was WCMD on CBU-97.

I think the UK made the right decision...

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

Brimstone Guided Missile - Think Defence

Brimstone is a potent and precision-guided anti-armour missile that arms RAF Typhoons and Protectors
www.thinkdefence.co.uk www.thinkdefence.co.uk
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Wow, thank you timmymagic, ur post has the most on the proposed Damocles seen. :)
One could imagine just an unmanned bopping around an area for some hrs w/ belly full Damocles to spit out until returning to base and filling up again.
 
robunos said:
TF . . . did that guy just aim a boot at the FPV drone . . . ?

cheers,
Robin.
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Just fell over at the wrong time.

TomS said:
It looks like he's got a makeshift shield strapped to his arm, too. Very odd, and enough to make me a little bit skeptical of the whole video.
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His rucksack falls off his shoulder as he runs, thats what you see on his arm.

Video is very real, the attempted Russian recovery of the STRV122 by 2 BREM has been seen on other drone videos.

And to be honest, even though its actualy a rucksack, a Russian with a makeshift shield on his arm wouldn't get in the top 100 of weird videos recorded by Mavics and FPV in Ukraine...
 
timmymagic said:
His rucksack falls off his shoulder as he runs, thats what you see on his arm.

Video is very real, the attempted Russian recovery of the STRV122 by 2 BREM has been seen on other drone videos.

And to be honest, even though its actualy a rucksack, a Russian with a makeshift shield on his arm wouldn't get in the top 100 of weird videos recorded by Mavics and FPV in Ukraine...
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Ah, that makes sense. I was really struggling to parse that whole segment.

You kinda have to feel for the guy, being chased by a flying hand grenade that probably sounds like a miniature buzz saw. It's straight out of a horror movie.
 
After saying they were going to purchase Brimstone way back in 2017 Germany has finally followed through. A initial firm order has been placed for 274 for operational purposes with associated launch, test devices and accessories as well as a further 29 for Luftwaffe integration/validation testing and 75 for training and telemetry purposes. A framework agreement will also been signed by the end of July allowing the purchase of up to 3,266 by the end of 2033.

www.hartpunkt.de

Luftwaffe soll Brimstone 3 für den Eurofighter erhalten

Nachdem die Bundeswehr bereits 2017 den Einstieg in die Nutzung der Luft-Boden-Rakete Brimstone 3 für den Anfang dieser Dekade angekündigt hatte, erfolgt jetzt die Umsetzung.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de
 
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WatcherZero said:
After saying they were going to purchase Brimstone way back in 2017 Germany has finally followed through. A initial firm order has been placed for 274 for operational purposes with associated launch, test devices and accessories as well as a further 29 for Luftwaffe integration/validation testing and 75 for training and telemetry purposes. A framework agreement will also been signed by the end of July allowing the purchase of up to 3,266 by the end of 2033.

www.hartpunkt.de

Luftwaffe soll Brimstone 3 für den Eurofighter erhalten

Nachdem die Bundeswehr bereits 2017 den Einstieg in die Nutzung der Luft-Boden-Rakete Brimstone 3 für den Anfang dieser Dekade angekündigt hatte, erfolgt jetzt die Umsetzung.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de
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Why the hell does it take 7 years to actually place an order from "Intent to Proceed"?!?
 
NMaude said:
Politics and bureaucracy?
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May I suggest shooting some bureaucrats, then?



WatcherZero said:
In Germany any government purchase that costs more than 30,000 Euros requires individual parliamentary approval.
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So, replacing each individual car needs a line item vote. *facepalm*

I mean, I'm usually in favor of keeping your congress/parliament too busy to get around to messing up the details of things, but this is just asking for trouble!
 
Scott Kenny said:
May I suggest shooting some bureaucrats, then?




So, replacing each individual car needs a line item vote. *facepalm*

I mean, I'm usually in favor of keeping your congress/parliament too busy to get around to messing up the details of things, but this is just asking for trouble!
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They would do it as X budget for the purchase of Y cars, but yeah even if you were only buying one it would still need line item approval.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Why the hell does it take 7 years to actually place an order from "Intent to Proceed"?!?
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Worth noting that German Typhoon would not have been able to carry Brimstone then. The UK had to integrate Brimstone and Storm Shadow under Project Centurion which completed in 2019. That left the UK's Typhoon significantly more capable than the other European users.
 
Couldn't the lessons learned in Project Centurion be used to modify the Germans Typhoons to carry the Brimstone since the RAF did all of the hard development work?
 
timmymagic said:
Worth noting that German Typhoon would not have been able to carry Brimstone then. The UK had to integrate Brimstone and Storm Shadow under Project Centurion which completed in 2019. That left the UK's Typhoon significantly more capable than the other European users.
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2-3 years from Intent to Proceed to delivery/IOC is acceptable. 7 years before you even get the first order is absurd.


NMaude said:
Couldn't the lessons learned in Project Centurion be used to modify the Germans Typhoons to carry the Brimstone since the RAF did all of the hard development work?
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UK would probably demand some funds to give access to the data, and there may be differences between what UK and German militaries require to complete the carriage clearances. But generally, yes. Once one nation gets a weapon cleared for carriage, it's very easy for another nation's planes to be cleared to carry that weapon.
 
Scott Kenny said:
2-3 years from Intent to Proceed to delivery/IOC is acceptable. 7 years before you even get the first order is absurd.
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Until now was there no real need for the goverment to waste money on it which didn't had it to begin with or even the intentions.
 
A while ago someone submitted an FOI request for the Tornado GR.4 Conventional Weapons Checklist and the RAF released a fairly heavily redacted copy of it.

Interestingly the checklist includes "Dual Mode Brimstone" and "Dual Mode Brimstone+". Does anyone know what Dual Mode Brimstone+ is and how it differed from regular Dual Mode Brimstone? This is the first I've heard of it.
Dual Mode Brimstone Plus.png
 
Flame2512 said:
A while ago someone submitted an FOI request for the Tornado GR.4 Conventional Weapons Checklist and the RAF released a fairly heavily redacted copy of it.

Interestingly the checklist includes "Dual Mode Brimstone" and "Dual Mode Brimstone+". Does anyone know what Dual Mode Brimstone+ is and how it differed from regular Dual Mode Brimstone? This is the first I've heard of it.
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What is that section between the fins on the Brimstone 2 image?
 
WatcherZero said:
Original DMS Brimstone was a retrofit of 300 original Brimstone. I presume the DMSB+ was an OEM version possibly with the Brimstone 2 guidance improvements before moving onto manufacturing Brimstone 2 with its insensitive warhead and rocket motor.
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I wonder if it was the top up order post Ellamy of brand new, rather than converted from MMW only, Dual Mode Brimstone.
 
The identification stripe is present on all Brimstone 2 but not exclusively, its rarely present on earlier ones. No idea on the diagonal lines though as there is no external feature that corresponds to that in any images I have seen, the outline rectangular shape matches a new access panel to the motor so perhaps the diagonal lines are an internal characteristic or were removed after the documentation was produced.
 
djpowell1984 said:
As see B1-b2 I wonder what different Brimstone 3 (b3)?

As I keep see it but not much information as possible is heavily classified?
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Brimstone 3 basically pulls all of the Brimstone 2 developments applied to different blocks and pulls them together into a single standard.

Effectively its the new baseline model with increased ability for reprogramming.
 

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