M270 MLRS and M142 HIMARS Developments

That *is* an absurd number. I know the trucks would be built in Poland, but that still seems like an effort that would take a couple decades. If you add in the 200 South Korean systems, Poland looks to be buying as large of a rocket force as the active U.S. Army.
 
Josh_TN said:
It boggles the mind how many rockets Poland would need to buy just to have a half dozen reloads…
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Thats the bit I just don't get....

Assuming each GMLRS, GMLRS-ER or GLSDB costs on average $150,000, a 6 rocket pack is going to cost c$1m.

How many reloads would they need to make a buy of 486 HIMARS worthwhile? The US only has around 10,000 packs of missiles including GMLRS and ATACMS (maybe slightly less). And thats spread across 1,500 M270 and HIMARS which can hold 2,500 packs at once....thats 4 reloads per vehicle. But that number is boosted by a large number of M270 that are not GMLRS capable that are held in storage....in reality its more like 6-7 reloads per active vehicle.

And to be honest I think the US is probably looking at GMLRS' success and thinking they need to double the number of reloads at the very least.

The system is so survivable that I would have thought 20 reloads would make sense per vehicle...if the Polish did that with 486 HIMARS it would be a $10bn+ order....

And thats before we get to Chunmoo, PrSM, LPS and all the other goodies....

I would have thought 100 HIMARS and 10,000 missiles would be enough to scare the bejeesus out of Russia after the torrid time they're having...
 
Going to pretty safely assume there is some miscommunication as that is more himars than we have. Still I do not like this or the infowars surrounding this conflict. Especially with what Vicky Nuland said recently and some of the clucking noises of generals in Russia.
 
TMA1 said:
Going to pretty safely assume there is some miscommunication as that is more himars than we have. Still I do not like this or the infowars surrounding this conflict. Especially with what Vicky Nuland said recently and some of the clucking noises of generals in Russia.
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This is a long-standing request, from May 2022, and repeated in May 2023. That 486 number seems to be aspirational -- LM has said that they can't actually deliver more than about 200. But they have been ramping up HIMARS production overall.

www.reuters.com

Poland to open HIMARS service centre in 2023

Poland will establish a service centre for HIMARS rocket launchers in 2023 and is negotiating the details of an order for 500 more launchers, the Polish defence minister said on Thursday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
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M270/HIMARS has some competition in Europe....in addition to Chunmoo....

Thats Denmark, Netherlands, Germany and Spain going with PULS so far...with France going to develop their own MRL solution in the future to replace LRU (French M270).

I suspect this is to do with ammunition production and integration....and a little of speed of delivery...

M270 was once an international project...now production of vehicles and missiles is only for the US (has the old MoU expired?) some nations appear to be reconsidering....

I do wonder about the UK's commitment to M270...especially given the recent AH-64E/JAGM fiasco, with Boeing allegedly refusing to allow Brimstone integration....I do hope that they have some cast iron agreements with the US around LPS or Area Effects integration into M270...perhaps its time to jump ship...and get on the EuroPULS train (much as I'm loath to use Israeli weapons given the whole Ukraine/Spike situation)...

www.edrmagazine.eu

FEINDEF 2023 - New multiple rocket launchers for the Spanish Army - EDR Magazine

Escribano and Expal unveiled their plans for proposing to the Spanish Army multiple rocket launchers made in Spain.
www.edrmagazine.eu www.edrmagazine.eu
 
donnage99 said:
What if they anticipate continously sending them to ukraine if the war drags on thus justifying the number ordered.
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Not sure Russia is so successful at killing trucks, nor(given their price and complexity compared to rockets) hunting them makes any longterm economic sense. They're just incredibly resilient - both vehicles and their supply chain.

Frankly speaking, given Ukrainian experience, Polish procurement is ridiculous.

Much smaller number of heavy rocket vehicles can offload almost any reasonable(produceable) number of rockets.
 
Ainen said:
Not sure Russia is so successful at killing trucks,
Click to expand...

It's just range. America would have similar trouble engaging BM-30s and BM-27s without airborne GMTI and relying solely on WLRs.

Ainen said:
Frankly speaking, given Ukrainian experience, Polish procurement is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

The U.S. has ~770 MLRS/HIMARS. Poland has a big army, almost as big as the U.S. or ROK. It makes sense they'd have a lot of rocket launchers, even if it's close to merely half as many as the U.S.

timmymagic said:
I suspect this is to do with ammunition production and integration....and a little of speed of delivery...
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Rocket length, at least if they're buying PULS. PULS supports a 5 meter rocket length, minimum.

Israel made PULS to have MLRS-comparable reloading speed, but with extreme long range rockets like EXTRA, which is nearly two-thirds a meter longer than M26/GMLRS, or Predator Hawk which is a meter longer than ATACMS. MLRS pods are limited to ~4 meter long all up rounds. I think the Chunmoo rockets are the same length, but a wider diameter.
 
timmymagic said:
M270/HIMARS has some competition in Europe....in addition to Chunmoo....

Thats Denmark, Netherlands, Germany and Spain going with PULS so far...with France going to develop their own MRL solution in the future to replace LRU (French M270).

I suspect this is to do with ammunition production and integration....and a little of speed of delivery...

M270 was once an international project...now production of vehicles and missiles is only for the US (has the old MoU expired?) some nations appear to be reconsidering....

I do wonder about the UK's commitment to M270...especially given the recent AH-64E/JAGM fiasco, with Boeing allegedly refusing to allow Brimstone integration....I do hope that they have some cast iron agreements with the US around LPS or Area Effects integration into M270...perhaps its time to jump ship...and get on the EuroPULS train (much as I'm loath to use Israeli weapons given the whole Ukraine/Spike situation)...

www.edrmagazine.eu

FEINDEF 2023 - New multiple rocket launchers for the Spanish Army - EDR Magazine

Escribano and Expal unveiled their plans for proposing to the Spanish Army multiple rocket launchers made in Spain.
www.edrmagazine.eu www.edrmagazine.eu
Click to expand...
If LPS goes ahead, the ability of the US to stop HIMARS integration seems doubtful.
However since LPS might also integrate into a CAMM style soft launch VLS package, the option exists to develop that as an alternative.
Which makes a domestic and Polish development possible.

I'd also suggest if we're ramping up production of LPS missiles, the option for a cheaper INS/GPS and bigger warhead variant seems relatively trivial.

But then I'd be looking at LPS variant for aircraft as well.
 
Kat Tsun said:
It's just range. America would have similar trouble engaging BM-30s and BM-27s without airborne GMTI and relying solely on WLRs.



The U.S. has ~770 MLRS/HIMARS. Poland has a big army, almost as big as the U.S. or ROK. It makes sense they'd have a lot of rocket launchers, even if it's close to merely half as many as the U.S.



Rocket length, at least if they're buying PULS. PULS supports a 5 meter rocket length, minimum.

Israel made PULS to have MLRS-comparable reloading speed, but with extreme long range rockets like EXTRA, which is nearly two-thirds a meter longer than M26/GMLRS, or Predator Hawk which is a meter longer than ATACMS. MLRS pods are limited to ~4 meter long all up rounds. I think the Chunmoo rockets are the same length, but a wider diameter.
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Not just range, lack of overflight freedom due to SAMs. Russia has GMTIs, but it doesn't really show if you see civilian traffic or HIMARS launcher. Even good non-SAR radar pictures aren't that good.

US MLRS fleet IMHO is mostly a relic of MLRS times. Original MLRS had all the same setup steps as Uragan; launching business was nowhere near as easy, safe and fast.
With MLRS/HIMARS i don't see a fundamental problem to offload, dunno, 14 packs a day, every day. I.e. full US production of this missile type.
of course, stock, geography, tactics and contingencies require more than just 1 launcher - but IMHO what Poland is doing is wasting money.

Twice so, because HIMARS supertrick could work only once, against an opponent who didn't expect it.
Otherwise, this 227mm form-factor isn't exactly a jack of all trades artillery.
 
Ainen said:
US MLRS fleet IMHO is mostly a relic of MLRS times. Original MLRS had all the same setup steps as Uragan; launching business was nowhere near as easy, safe and fast.
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Not sure I get this...M270 is absolutely not like Uragan. Podded rockets, digital controls from day 1. No one peering down a dial sight at the rear of the launcher and having to survey the launch site with theodolite etc...
 
Another view of the UK Dispensing Payload for GMLRS. The red tipped munition is the Thales FFLMM with lo-cost seeker head (basically a gliding LMM with new seeker) and the white 'shell' type payloads (including in the blue payload section) are the dispensers for the Lockheed UK Outrider UAV.

As @TomS noted earlier its 3 FFLMM or 3 Outrider per payload section. I do wonder how they'll manage weight though? Outrider in particular is really light...they might have to have some ballast in there. And also how does the datalink for both work?

news.lockheedmartin.com

Lockheed Martin Unveils a New Lightweight Canister Launched Unmanned Aircraft System at the Defence and Security Equipment International Exhibition (DSEI)

Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) unveiled a new small unmanned aircraft system (UAS) that has been designed and developed in the UK at the Defence and Security Equipment International (DSEI). OUTRIDER...
news.lockheedmartin.com news.lockheedmartin.com

https://imgur.com/gK5DoYU
View: https://imgur.com/gK5DoYU
 
zen said:
However since LPS might also integrate into a CAMM style soft launch VLS package, the option exists to develop that as an alternative.
Which makes a domestic and Polish development possible.
Click to expand...

The LPS graphics released to date show LPS in the Land Ceptor system so soft launch is definitely on the cards. Interesting to see how that looks on a trainable launcher like M270 though...presumably low angle fire won't be done...
 
timmymagic said:
As @TomS noted earlier its 3 FFLMM or 3 Outrider per payload section.
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There are a couple of reports saying 5 weapons in one version of LRAE, but there's a lot of confusion about what they actually are. Form the picture, I think we're seeing a partially dispensed warhead with three rounds in the launcher and two ejector pistons for already deployed rounds.

AvWeek says its an "adapted" FFLMM:

British Army Exploring MLRS Launched Effects | Aviation Week Network

The UK Army’s Long-Range Area Effects Demonstrator is exploring how the Extended-Range Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System could carry different payloads.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com

Defensa says that TGSM (aka the adapted FFLMM?) actually has a turbine for a 10km range. But it also talks about an LRAE warhead with a range of 30km. Clear as mud there...

www.defensa.com

LRAE, la ojiva avanzada para lanzacohetes MLRS del Ejército británico

Thales trabaja en conceptos de ojivas de alta capacidad que podrían instalarse en los cohetes que disparan los lanzadores MLRS del Ejército británico
www.defensa.com www.defensa.com
 
TomS said:
AvWeek says its an "adapted" FFLMM:
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Definitely adapted with pop out wings and the Lo-cost seeker head.

TomS said:
Defensa says that TGSM (aka the adapted FFLMM?) actually has a turbine for a 10km range. But it also talks about an LRAE warhead with a range of 30km. Clear as mud there...
Click to expand...

Glide range from height would be around 30km no problem. But I can't imagine there is any possibility of a small turbine engine, or (far more likely) a sustainer rocket. The rear of the munition appears to be exactly the same as the original Fury munition.
 
timmymagic said:
Glide range from height would be around 30km no problem. But I can't imagine there is any possibility of a small turbine engine, or (far more likely) a sustainer rocket. The rear of the munition appears to be exactly the same as the original Fury munition.
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Re-reading, I think the range is actually a reference to the UAS payload, with maybe some garbling in translation.
 
TomS said:
Re-reading, I think the range is actually a reference to the UAS payload, with maybe some garbling in translation.
Click to expand...

I think they've got that wrong as well, time on station is 2+ hours with loiter speed of 35 knots. And that was in 2017, with improved batteries I expect its even further.

but...its the data link back to base that I don't get...how are they relaying the data back?

www.suasnews.com

Lockheed Martin OUTRIDER

OUTRIDER™ is the latest in Lockheed Martin’s family of small Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) designed to provide enhanced Situational Awareness (SA) in environments where launching a conventional U…
www.suasnews.com
 
timmymagic said:
but...its the data link back to base that I don't get...how are they relaying the data back?
Click to expand...

Maybe the drones have a relay capability, so one of them loiters high, within LOS of the command post receiving the comms, while the other two go lower for surveillance? Could be specialized or maybe all three can do that in case the first gets shot down. Totally spitballing, but that's probably how I'd do it.
 
I question whether it will be provided in meaningful numbers, but better than nothing.
 
What I don't understand is why hasn't the US DoD withdrawn some already manufactured SDB-Is from their stocks and handed them over to Boeing instead of new builds? The only thing that needs to be built are the adaptors to mate the SDB-Is to the M26 rocket-motors.
 

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