Tanks aren't the best anti-tank weapons out there.
Which single vehicle is better?

No. Tanks aren't the best anti-tank weapon. It's only one of popular myths.

Something very heavy (too heavy), very costly, with poor strategic mobility (because it is heavy), very short weapon range, limited to Line of Sight (in Europe below 1 km), with only single-kill capability, can't be.

Every vehicle with NLOS guided weapon is better.
MRLs, ATGM tank destroyers, drone carriers are better.
They have much longer range (this means much safer fighting with enemy than tanks), multiple-kill (at once) capability.
Single vehicle can kill entire tank company at once. No one tank can this and never will be.
Can operate in section of 2. Only 2 vehicles are much harder to detect than company of tanks (+ ifv).
And they are cheaper than modern MBTs. Those weapons don't need a costly heavy chassis.
Even infantry with NLOS weapon (ATGM, Loitering Munition) have a few times bigger range.
In XXI century MBTs are a costly mistake in killing other tanks.

Killing vehicles with guns is outdated. Thats why new MBT proposals recieve ATGM (Challenger 2 with Brimstone, new S.Korean MBT) or drones (KF51 Panther). Those weapons are better. Offers precision, longer range, safer killing. Today this is very wanted.
 
Tanks are cheap to make.

Tanks are expensive to operate.

Tanks best act as support but can act as a spearhead in open terrain. Not so much a spearhead in covered terrain, because they become exposed. Tanks damaged as a spearhead force are often abandoned because they outstrip their support. By the time you set up logistics for MBTs, your lighter forces have already occupied the same space. Ultimately you need boots, not tanks, to occuppy space. When the boots run into meat shredders they call for a tank. Tanks rolling through developments and neighborhoods really do very little to dispace the enemy. Your boots are the only force to remove enemy boots with any sense of certainty.
 
Tanks aren't the best anti-tank weapons out there.
Which single vehicle is better?

No. Tanks aren't the best anti-tank weapon. It's only one of popular myths.

Something very heavy (too heavy), very costly, with poor strategic mobility (because it is heavy), very short weapon range, limited to Line of Sight (in Europe below 1 km), with only single-kill capability, can't be.

Every vehicle with NLOS guided weapon is better.
MRLs, ATGM tank destroyers, drone carriers are better.
They have much longer range (this means much safer fighting with enemy than tanks), multiple-kill (at once) capability.
Single vehicle can kill entire tank company at once. No one tank can this and never will be.
Can operate in section of 2. Only 2 vehicles are much harder to detect than company of tanks (+ ifv).
And they are cheaper than modern MBTs. Those weapons don't need a costly heavy chassis.
Even infantry with NLOS weapon (ATGM, Loitering Munition) have a few times bigger range.
In XXI century MBTs are a costly mistake in killing other tanks.

Killing vehicles with guns is outdated. Thats why new MBT proposals recieve ATGM (Challenger 2 with Brimstone, new S.Korean MBT) or drones (KF51 Panther). Those weapons are better. Offers precision, longer range, safer killing. Today this is very wanted.
Virtually every military on the planet disagrees with you. Show me an MBT that loses the gun in favor of a box of missiles. The MBT isn't going anywhere. It may ADD missiles to it's magazine (that's hardly a ground-breaking idea as gun-launched missiles have been around forever) but the heavily armored vehicle with a main gun is here to stay.
 
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Tanks are cheap to make.

They are not in the slightest.

The cost of an M1 outweighs the cost of the entire crew by a factor of at least 4. Maybe more, now, since there are better M1s these days. It costs a shade over $130,000 annually in all accounts (insurance, housing, food, pay, etc.), about $50,000 to send a recruit through training, for a enlisted man on average, which we can truncate to $200,000 or so and not be far off, and an M1 tank costs about $8,000,000 or so back in the stone ages (the 1990's).

So you're paying $800,000 for an M1 crew and one year of service, but one of those guys will have about five years experience since he's a sergeant, so it's more like ~$2,000,000 total for a E-5, two E-4s with ~2 years experience, and an E-3 give or take ~1 year fresh outta AIT. Granted, not as an expensive as an airplane, but still quite costly, and losing crewmen is preferable to losing tanks, obviously. You can replace crews, at least as long as they're not sergeants or officers. Replacing tanks is much harder.

Also no, cost of raising a kid doesn't count here, it's just the cost of training. DOD isn't paying that cost because the US Army is a foreign legion. Non-citizens can enlist, take American names, and have a fast track to get a permanent residency after a four year contract. Thus it's not counted.

Point is: Machines stopped being cheap decades ago, unless you're Chinese, where machines are still cheap. Manpower is premium to the point that they hire European mercenaries to fly their fighter jets (don't let these pictures be posted on Twitter), but manpower is probably dropping in cost, not increasing, since they are training in combined arms with opposing force units similar to the US Army. Still no major war experience but not a big issue, as the US doesn't have much relevant war experience, either. Nowadays, neither manpower nor machines are cheap for the West, and likely neither will be cheap again.

Which means losing a war to the next guy where one or the other is cheap.

We've already lost the war to the guys where men were cheap (Iraqis, Vietnamese, Pakistanis, etc.).

Now we're waiting to lose the war to the guys where machines are cheap (Chinese). Better hope the USA can make either men or machines cheaper but I have my doubts on either case. At the moment though, men are cheaper, so losing men is better than losing machines. Maybe America can lean on its stockpiles and grind the Chinese tank hordes down with heavy artillery and entrenched light infantry while husbanding its precious armored corps.

The best hope is a sort of a reverse of Korea where the Chinese were light infantry grinding down the tank hordes of America with horse cavalry, but now it will be the US grinding down the Chinese tank hordes with Humvee cavalry. It's entirely possible, the US Army has a wealth of tactical knowledge and decent, gritty fighters, while no one really knows what the PLA would do or perform like in action. Last time they fought a war they got slapped by the Vietnamese, but the Vietnamese slapped America too, so that's not saying much. Koreans are also gritty guys.

However this helps explains the egregious quantities of Infantry BCTs in the National Guard if it makes you feel better, and why the US Army is composed of over half light infantry who drive around in unarmored Humvees and 5-tons and not a bunch of dudes in M1s and M2s FWIW.
 
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Kat Tsun-

If you were speaking about operating costs - which crew costs are a part of - then you are starting to bolster my second argument:

Tanks are expensive to operate.

As you move your timeline out from year 0 of a machine, and add in tranportation costs to move the machine to where it operates, it only makes my argument stronger. It's tough moving 60t vehicles around the world. The next M-1 successor will take these costs into account. Size of main gun, weight, crew size all greatly impact operating costs. So while it could sport 140mm main gun, an accountant somewhere is answering just how much it costs the operating costs for the projected lifetime of that vehicle. And you still have to look at other factors, such as if they ever intend to upgrade these vehicles. They also balance costs in the event they lose tanks at their production rate, which is why we ended up with such heavy tanks in the first place. Adding survival features is far cheaper than trying to add vehicle production Most of the time its too costly to make a vehicle friendly to future upgrades and keep all those other costs in balance. I don't remember which magazine did a long story on M-1 development in the 90s, but what it spoke about is every bit as true today as when they published the article. It also explained why M-1 stuck to a 105 over the 120 for so long. And it was building decisions around much cheaper crew costs at the time.
 
The goal of the technical development is to invalidate the force structure of the enemy wholesale, regardless of tactics. The whole effort in "Revolution in Military Affairs" and Assault Breaker was about technological means of defeating soviet mechanized forces regardless of the tactics employed by soviets.


At the root of it, tanks defeat the thing that defeats infantry, which defeat the thing that defeats the tank, which protects the thing that kills the infantry, which protects the thing that kills the tank. It's less esoteric than you imply and much more akin to rock-paper-scissors.

That is, tanks kill machine guns by being bulletproof field guns that follow the infantry, and the infantry defeat the field gun by being sneaky lads with sharp eyes who can spot a gun crew waddling into position, and take the gun under fire with rifles to close with grenades and kill crew, before the field gun can kill the tank.
Where the Russians have had adequate infantry, they fight like normal in close terrain: infantry screen, machine guns are spotted through reconnaissance by (enemy) fire, the (most likely) anti-tank positions are suppressed by 12.7mm MGs and 30mm AGS, and the tanks roll up to demolish the machine gun.
massive preparatory bombardment of likely positions with heavy artillery to smash and demolish ATGW positions followed up with mechanical troops. The troop shock and fire shock of the combination of the artillery, which dazes ATGW gunners, and the subsequent assault by mechanical troops, tends to force the ATGW teams back to retreat or they die attempting to re-man their positions.

1930s conceptions of tactics...it just doesn't work anymore nearly a CENTURY down the line.

Field guns in defensive positions never were generally defeated by infantry, there are gun shields and is positioned out of reach of small arms, with infantry ahead to protect it as guns have longer range than small arms. Such guns were defeated by artillery or overwhelmed by high concentration of armor. The classical 1940s concept of warfare had artillery defeat large field guns that can not be dug in or moved easily. Tanks defeat machineguns and on top of general firepower application. Infantry defeat man portable anti-tank weapons like panzerfausts and spot low visibility threats. This tactics works up to early ATGM eras.

In the world assault breaker, all the flaws of previous generation of anti-tank defenses is answered. This is on top of the fact that defenses work when it manages to execute its combat plan as opposed to the attacker's.

1. Infantry screens are simple to defeat. Simply drop artillery on them. We'll all seen videos of armored columns bracketed by artillery. Now, YOU dismount and stay under a barrage at walking pace, advancing a kilometer or two to clear AT weapons. Even if manpower holds up in theory, morale would not given a sufficient intensive barrage.

With WW2 communications and computation capability, it was difficult for artillery to follow with mechanized advances with fire and only the best forces were capable. The need to outpace artillery and other defenses made the armored infantry carrier important, for enabling fast close range assaults.

In the modern era, responsive defensive artillery is far more available, with capability to keep with moving targets. Long range AT forces dismounts, artillery rout dismounts, armored attack defeated.

2. Even if the infantry screen is not defeated, defending anti-tank weapons from infantry is the oldest one in the book. Long range anti-tank weapons with anti-infantry screen ahead is classical.

3. Suppression and defeat of anti-tank weapons by artillery were a well known problem, highlighted especially in yom kippur. In the modern era, multiple technical solutions are available:
- Protection of the crew via remote control, like the stugna that enables the crew to fight in hidden and dug in positions, reducing suppressive effect
- Improved ease of control up to fire and forget to greatly reduce suppressive effect
- Compact light weight weapons that can be carried into deep dugouts and setup when a barrage lifts: much reduce vulnerability to destruction compared to semi-fixed weapons
- Increased weapon range and non-LOS capability increases available firing positions by orders of magnitude and can outrange opponent artillery. Weapons like Brimstone, Spike, Switchblade, and Bonus gets up to 40+ km range and can not be neutralized by artillery. It should be noted that linear increase in range result in exponential increase in dumb artillery for suppression and quickly becomes impossible.
- Vehicle mounted weapons avoids artillery by being harder to locate, and can move into a large set of possible firing positions only after opponent armor is committed. Vehicles can also be armored to resist artillery. Large numbers of artillery resistant ATGM carriers in the form of IFV is common that is quite suited for the role.

4. Defeat of anti-tank weapons by tank fires was a problem, especially when tanks are massed. Non-line of sight weapons are immune to direct fire tank force becomes the go to option. Outranging tanks is also effective, with attack helicopters and elevated masted ATGM launchers tried on top of large heavy missiles.

5. The threat of maneuver warfare is operational, not tactical, with tanks breaking through and overruning rear areas. This is dealt with with even more mobile blocking and counterattacking reserves, from attack helicopters, light ATGM vehicles and mechanized infantry. Impairing the mobility of tank forces was also done, with rapid mine laying capability combined with range projection of artillery. Long range anti-tank capability also enables rapid shift in fires, and even a "low-tech" force like Ukraine is supplied with ground launched brimstones and sensor fused artillery that can rapidly focus fires by 40km and defeat breakthroughs fast.

Ultimately AT weapons evolving from 3m range explosive charges, 30m panzerfaust, 300m RPG, 3000m ATGM, to 30,000m NLOS missile is significant.

and then there is 100km AT weapons on the sides, with integration of terminal seekers and battle networks to next gen rocket, ramjet and low cost turbojet ammo. The question when will propulsion technology improve to the point of cost effectively outranging the fueled range of tanks. Don't need to fight tank-like force when you can kill refueling points easily.

This is all basic Lanchesterian stuff that people discovered in like the 1930's. Tanks were never "dominant" or whatever, and the Kaiser's stormtroopers were blowing them up with field guns and satchel charges in 1917, so I'm not sure why you think that lol.

Killing tanks is not hard
Killing tanks can be very difficult in other eras. A single KV-1 or a Tiger could hold a entire division for hours, requiring things like manhandling a 88mm gun into range or low probability unguided air/artillery hit to clear out without absurd losses. Before missiles or advanced artillery capabilities, the only way to get rid of a heavy tank on the defense in a hurry is more tanks of good quality. Golan heights was another case where a tactically inferior, large force attacking into tanks and getting shattered. Prepared, concealed hull down positions with safe routes to reposition combined with resistant front turret armor were hard to beat.

Tanks fighting tanks occurs often enough and is extremely common in major wars where lines of sight are large, because tanks are modern cavalrymen and conventional cavalry action is possible when lines of sight are broad and open. Cavalry were historically powerful shock troops and this remains true today. The tank can defend itself by simply shooting anything that moves next to it if it can see several miles distant, so long as it can further than its gun can shoot it is perfectly safe. Desert Storm literally proved that mass cavalry action is viable in open terrain actions and remains so today.
The Toyota war shows that effective weapons range is more important than ineffective armor or ammo count in open terrain fights. Desert Storm showed this again, with Bradley defeating Iraqi armor handily when having very poor armor and small ammo load. In open terrain combat, long range sensors and effective long range weapons is more important than anything else, and in this era it means masted/drone sensors with missiles.

The primary value of armor is in surviving small weapons, like those used by infantry (classical case: machine gun) and area of effect weapons like artillery. Armor is generally not effective against vehicle anti-tank weapons fielded by opponent that actually upgrades their weapons to keep up with the arms race.

This is not especially surprising if one look at the history of cruiser and infantry/heavy tanks. A cruiser tank is fairly comfortable in open terrain and does not require good armor to be effective, though good AT capability is still needed. For combat in complex terrain, heavy armor is favored, just look at the desired weapon/armor combo for Strumtigers and AVREs.

The current generation of MBTs are heavy tanks with huge engines thrown in (and perhaps even gun launched ATGM for range) and proclaimed to be mobile but ultimately uneconomical for classical cruiser-tank style combat because it is carrying so much mass that helps very little with the mission.

tl;dr Tanks have plenty of armor it's just weakly distributed for close combat, because most tanks were designed with open terrain in mind and avoiding cities, because armies in the 80's were poorly trained for the future (i.e. now) and had soundly forgotten all the lessons of WW2 by that time i.e. tanks are a vital and ineffable part of the combined arms team in all terrains. Less armor on the front, more on the sides and top, and it ends up looking like an SPz Puma with a 5" gun I guess is "optimal" or whatever.
MBTs are designed for anti-tank combat and the logic of arms race results in specialization. Tanks now work under all-or-nothing armor scheme as balanced schemes are ineffective against tanks (but all schemes are ineffective against tanks that gets upgraded to keep up the arms race). The advantages of front turret immunity against shell fire had be highly valuable in pre-missile warfare.

Other armored vehicles not implicitly focused on anti-tank combat have far more balanced armor distribution.

Virtually every military on the planet disagrees with you. Show me an MBT that loses the gun in favor of a box of missiles. The MBT isn't going anywhere. It may ADD missiles to it's magazine (that's hardly a ground-breaking idea as gun-launched missiles have been around forever) but the heavily armored vehicle with a main gun is here to stay.
Any vehicle that is fitted with a big box of missiles is pretty much by DEFINITION not a tank. There are a lot of vehicles with box of missile on top, but normally one would not fit a gun-dueling armor scheme when it is fitted with missiles because there is no synergy and makes no sense, unless you are the north koreans that doesn't want to invest in new full vehicle designs.

Heavily armored vehicle with main gun would likely stay, but it would not be for open space maneuvers that favors weapons range above all. In tight terrain against a lot of lighter forces, armor and gun is useful. The original role of the tank is dealing with infantry across horrible terrain of no-man's land, and it is just returning to that.

There is a lot of video footage of tanks in cities from Syrian, Israeli and Iraqi conflicts. The tanks do get lost, but all lighter armored vehicles would do far worst against mines, VBIEDs, and small arms spam all over the place. The direct fire gun is also a better weapon at demolishing endless building in a urban area and immediate, low cost high volume fire cuts down infantry casualties. Even the sheer mass of tanks, with a dozen blade is helpful. The logical progression is unmanned tanks with weapons the is more optimized for close combat (lower velocity to reduce blast disrupting friendly infantry action, higher elevation and depression, and so on) like urban warfare heavy tanks of the old.

Just imagine the joke that is using ATGM jeeps in a urban warfare environment....
 
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Yes a tank is a good weapon for future urban combat and necessary to employ basic combined arms principles, which as you note, have been around since the 1930's (actually the 1910's) and haven't changed much since then, when the last major revolution in military affairs which had any serious significance on wars in the world (as the Soviets noted) occurred. Nuclear weapons not withstanding, whose only major benefit is letting single-lower echelon units defeat single-echelon higher units i.e. field gun defeats battery, battery defeats battalion, etc. rather than the conventional ordnance inverse, there hasn't been as significant a change in warfare as the introduction of tanks, aircraft, and automobiles since that time.

Perhaps natures of combined arms will change in the future but no one knows what that future would look like and we're rather far from it.

A certain recent war has more shades of WW2 (especially that of the initial breakout operations from the Normandy landings to an uncanny extent) than it does any hypothetical, imaginary WW3, after all. And it is involving some of the biggest militaries and most advanced weapons (both directly and indirectly) on the planet, integrated with one of the most advanced geo-spatial intelligence-communication systems ever devised by men: So much for "reconnaissance strike complexes", as they still seem to be as hypothetical as they were when the Soviets imagined they might exist at some point in the future.

Perhaps Desert Storm was just a Caen without the overhead concealment of forests and buildings after all. The same level of field force destruction, despite mass American airpower, was never seen in Bosnia or Kosovo, after all. Plenty of trees in the Balkans, as well as mountains and bridges, and other places to hide. Ground troops, namely Kosovars and Croatians, and the French, advancing in either war had to rely on good old grit and grenades, rather than coming across burning wreckage of T-55s or whatever in ODS without so much as a shot fired, where the main threat was missing your Corps mandated battalion movement timetables and getting chewed up by the neighboring task forces. Only the threat of an American armored division driving into Serbia like they did in '95 when V US Corps forced the Sava brought Milosevic to the table at the end of the day. Nothing as imaginary as slightly more accurate and commensurately more expensive bombs did it though.

Anyway this thread is about M1 tanks not about the history of combined arms or the nature of ground warfare.
 
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Sorry for being ignorant, but it seem’s that I am unaware of event when V US Corp forced Sava river. Would you be so kind and share some sources, describing this event. Thanks.
 
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I would take that image with a grain of salt - the presentation it is from is clearly focussed on explaining the use of modelling and simulation in the development/analysis of new platform concepts and that particular image is an example in relation to
photo-realistic virtual and augmented reality. It does not purport to be anything more nor does it imply that it is a M1 Abrams replacement.
 
It seems to be just an M1A2 hull with what an elongated TTB turret-autoloader and a LW30 grenade launcher. It's fairly generic all things considered.
 
The main change for a new tank ought to be a more fuel efficient engine and a reliable one to reduce the burden of supporting it in the field.
The turret and hull need to have maximum scope for uparmouring as technology develops.
The main gun needs to have the simplest and most reliable loading mechanism with ammunition kept separate from the crew.
It should permit the barrel to be exchanged readily for a new design in the life of the tank.
The size and weight of the tank should be less than that of the M1 reversing the trend to grow tanks.
Gadgetry such as electronics, missiles offensive and defensive and UAVs plus other technologies need to be as modular as possible as they are all changing fast.
I recall reading the two volume Leopard and Chieftain AFV history years ago and the dilemma still remains.
The Cold War in retrospect was a simple era for tank designers as the main theatre of battle in Germany could determine their work. Other theatres like the Middle East were secondary to Western (non Israeli) designs.
Russia and its client states have become the most likely tank opponent for the US Army. It is hard to imagine US tank forces engaging the PLA. The most likely theatre for the PLA is Taiwan or a neighbouring state like Vietnam. Local forces would need US airpower rather than ground forces.
Neither Russia nor China has any experience to match that of the US Army in combined arms warfare after two wars in Iraq and considerable training.
Producing more and better M1s for and with US allies would seem more pressing at the moment than designing a new tank.
 
The question would seem to be, at which point do you commit to crossover or alternate philosophies for design and tactical use. I believe we need to run to several different families with each able to deal with a PART of the combat requirement. MBT are vulnerable to certain weapons just as lighter vehicles so, we NEED to have a military which recognises and equips for a multitude of threats.

Tanks will be relevant for decades to come, no matter how many folk decry them, just as the light pseudo tank will be useful in its niche and crossover AFV in their own stead.

Being able to use these divergent vehicles with differing talents will be the making or breaking if us, we need to properly wargame and test the theory of how we can integrate them into a new group of tactics to keep us safe against the threats of the next fifty years and on.
 
Iraq was probably genuinely damaging to the US Army's ability to conduct meaningful and realistic training since the lack of fight from the Iraqis gave America a lot of confirmation bias. That might just be pundits though. DOD proper (at least the Army) outside of the academic "wonk"/know-nothing circles seems to be taking Ukraine and Syria very seriously from the perspective of heavy force casualties.

That said, even if it's just a new turret on the same old M1 hull, it'll be fine. The US Army's baby steps around the issue are better than the boondoggle that was FCS, but they could probably move faster I suppose.

A more modern turbine would be nice but the most important thing is to be able to build thousands of them. There are something like 4,500-5,500 M1 tanks of all types (yes, even M1A0 and M1IP with the 105mm) in US inventory and refurbishing even half those old hulls with the new turret would be really nice. This appears to be a classic M1 hull rather than a enlarged TTB style hull so I imagine it's setup for that, since Lima has no capacity for building new hulls.

Since the USA can barely make new tanks from whole cloth to begin with, any major modernizations would need to be put on hold for a long time, like at least a presidential term. It'll take about 4-6 years for the US to build up Lima to capacity to produce triple digits of brand new tanks again (depending on how pessimistic you are) and for the most part they have little capacity for new hulls, but plenty for new turrets, so they can pull old hulls from SIAD and give them the new turret at probably high double digit monthly rates inside 2-4 years. Triple digits would be necessary to build up 2,000 or 2,500 tanks in a decade though.

Since the US and PLAGF have similar quantities of tanks in service, with the PLA being able to very much muscularly out produce America in this regard, the most important thing in a US-PLA fight is being able to isolate a theater. China for the most part has the easier job than America, though, and solving this deficit of military muscle is going to take more than new tanks.

It would take a few decades and substantial reorientation from Japan and Korea back to the United States in global shipbuilding. Unfortunately all heavy industry is being sucked into China right now and there's no sign of this slowing down, because China has what the USA had in 1939: a massive surplus agrarian population. Whether that will hold true in the future is a bit immaterial as both the USA and PRC will be in their median age 40's by 2050 though. China, conversely, won't be as bad as Japan is right now and better off than Germany, Italy, and Spain in terms of median age.

Even then, the ship hull cliff will cut the number of USN carriers, SSNs, and general fleet strength in the early 2040's to "smol". It's why I like to peg Pacific War 2 happening in 2040-2044 or so, because that's when the PLA and USN will be at their relative strength/nadir to each other, and the USA doesn't seem like it's going to be backing down on its imperial responsibilities any time soon.

Which is why the next 20 years is pretty crucial. To have "sufficient" tanks to act as a hedge against ZTZ-25s or -96XYZs, or whatever the PLA will build in the thousands, it's probably important to ditch every last -IP and -A1 at SIAD and replace them with new turrets on refurbished/zero houred hulls. Lima is setup for 150 tanks/month peacetime with 300 tanks/month "M-day", but it's very understaffed and will take years to build up that staff, and that was when it was producing 20 tanks/month and not the present 10-15 tanks/month...

DOD might see that major throughput in the 2030's if it started sometime this year or early next year in training those ballistic welders. They might be able to cut their teeth on export M1 orders and get started on the real deal in the next decade and crank out 1,000-1,500 tanks before the next big one.

Of course there's not much Army DOD can do in this regard because the entire ball is in the USN's court as it stands. A new tank is mostly just going to be a hedge against ground force casualties in a limited intervention, mechanized colonial war like Syria or Ukraine or something where the enemy actually shoots back, but having thousands of tanks to lose instead of a few hundred is pretty important. Russia lost something like 1,500 tanks so far in their frankly limited/mid-intensity excursion, so it's not out of the question in a future Korean War-type conflict, the USA might simply end up running out of tanks after a couple years of action.
 
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The main change for a new tank ought to be a more fuel efficient engine and a reliable one to reduce the burden of supporting it in the field.
Agree uk 75

IMO, at minimum, I would have thought the US Army would have incorporated the Rheinmetall 120mm L/55 gun in it's latest M1 gestation.

Regards
Pioneer
 
The US needs to sort out its stockpile of tanks and transfer some to Ukraine et al.
Unlike Russia and China the US has many allies capable of building decent tanks locally. Egypt comes to mind.
Russia and China are surrounded by "difficult" neighbours and don't really get along with each other.
Turkey, Iran or Vietnam are not necessarily hostile to them but would not be pushovers in any conflict.
China has never mounted an expeditionary amphibious war. The US has been doing it for generations.
The US needs to go back to its Reagan era playbook and take its various enemies around the world seriously.
A decent force of M1s regularly modernised seems vital.
 
The M1 is fine for the most part. Older hulls just need the 120mm and modern optronics, which a new turret provides. US just needs to stop selling 100-200 tanks to randoms every 5-10 years or whatever.

There's a lot to be said about China and USA and their macroeconomic trends, but the past is no help. The USA's best solution for handling China militarily would be looking less at the Reagan playbook, which it has actually followed to a letter since 1990 until very recently (like the past couple years), and more at the July 7 Incident.

But that's a wild tangent to go down. The good news is that, unless PRC gets another Xi (whom we might consider to be a Chinese Stalin) in the 30's, they're unlikely to invade Taiwan or try to tussle with America even with the relative nadir of US and Chinese military-economic strengths in the 2040s. They'll probably try to buy Taiwan or something, assuming Xi doesn't go completely bonkers in the meantime.

Anyway there's no need to buy Egyptian tanks. People are aware of the problem. It's just finding the money between all the other stuff that also needs to be done. The tank numbers proposed for the fiscal years are incredibly high based on General Dynamics' own assumptions though, which they quoted as 3 years to get back to snuff with 150/tanks month. Maybe they have some surplus capacity or hired more welders during the Great Furlough though.

If that fails the USA can open a tank plant in Mexico or something I guess.

Also I highkey think that concept model would look pretty dope if the big empty bits behind the front wedges had little launchers for observer UAS or something. That was one of the things tankers wanted in OMT IIRC.
 
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We can and should do much better, a proper and rationalised acquisition program would be a good start. Research into this process and the types of weapons we need to move forward rather than the historical two steps forward and three to the rear, also.
 
Just a reminder that in WW2 tanks were produced by existing heavy industry, as well as by the dedicated factories.

We still have train and heavy construction factories, which with a bit of work, would be able to produce armoured vehicles.
 
The main change for a new tank ought to be a more fuel efficient engine and a reliable one to reduce the burden of supporting it in the field.
Agree uk 75

IMO, at minimum, I would have thought the US Army would have incorporated the Rheinmetall 120mm L/55 gun in it's latest M1 gestation.

Regards
Pioneer
3 weeks from now we should be seeing a new gun.
 
Tanks are cheap to make.

They are not in the slightest.

The cost of an M1 outweighs the cost of the entire crew by a factor of at least 4. Maybe more, now, since there are better M1s these days. It costs a shade over $130,000 annually in all accounts (insurance, housing, food, pay, etc.), about $50,000 to send a recruit through training, for a enlisted man on average, which we can truncate to $200,000 or so and not be far off, and an M1 tank costs about $8,000,000 or so back in the stone ages (the 1990's).

So you're paying $800,000 for an M1 crew and one year of service, but one of those guys will have about five years experience since he's a sergeant, so it's more like ~$2,000,000 total for a E-5, two E-4s with ~2 years experience, and an E-3 give or take ~1 year fresh outta AIT. Granted, not as an expensive as an airplane, but still quite costly, and losing crewmen is preferable to losing tanks, obviously. You can replace crews, at least as long as they're not sergeants or officers. Replacing tanks is much harder.

Also no, cost of raising a kid doesn't count here, it's just the cost of training. DOD isn't paying that cost because the US Army is a foreign legion. Non-citizens can enlist, take American names, and have a fast track to get a permanent residency after a four year contract. Thus it's not counted.

Point is: Machines stopped being cheap decades ago, unless you're Chinese, where machines are still cheap. Manpower is premium to the point that they hire European mercenaries to fly their fighter jets (don't let these pictures be posted on Twitter), but manpower is probably dropping in cost, not increasing, since they are training in combined arms with opposing force units similar to the US Army. Still no major war experience but not a big issue, as the US doesn't have much relevant war experience, either. Nowadays, neither manpower nor machines are cheap for the West, and likely neither will be cheap again.

Which means losing a war to the next guy where one or the other is cheap.

We've already lost the war to the guys where men were cheap (Iraqis, Vietnamese, Pakistanis, etc.).

Now we're waiting to lose the war to the guys where machines are cheap (Chinese). Better hope the USA can make either men or machines cheaper but I have my doubts on either case. At the moment though, men are cheaper, so losing men is better than losing machines. Maybe America can lean on its stockpiles and grind the Chinese tank hordes down with heavy artillery and entrenched light infantry while husbanding its precious armored corps.

The best hope is a sort of a reverse of Korea where the Chinese were light infantry grinding down the tank hordes of America with horse cavalry, but now it will be the US grinding down the Chinese tank hordes with Humvee cavalry. It's entirely possible, the US Army has a wealth of tactical knowledge and decent, gritty fighters, while no one really knows what the PLA would do or perform like in action. Last time they fought a war they got slapped by the Vietnamese, but the Vietnamese slapped America too, so that's not saying much. Koreans are also gritty guys.

However this helps explains the egregious quantities of Infantry BCTs in the National Guard if it makes you feel better, and why the US Army is composed of over half light infantry who drive around in unarmored Humvees and 5-tons and not a bunch of dudes in M1s and M2s FWIW.
Interesting= What's your take on the lessons learned fromb the Ukraine War? To keep up your analogy, I see the incredible importance of drones - cheap weapon systems and the operators, while not cheap are relatively safe. Artillery has become more prominent than I would have guessed, the these fancy artillery rounds aren't cheap either. Also, I understand Ukraine's supply problems but I am stunned at Russia's cupboards running bare.
 
Both in Korea and Vietnam, the U.S. was hampered by the rules of engagement ,unsuitable areas
for armor and indifferent commanders. Change these and there would not be a grinding down of
our forces. I hope the U.S. gets the main battle tank situation in hand before someone else forces
that hand.
 
Just a reminder that in WW2 tanks were produced by existing heavy industry, as well as by the dedicated factories.

We still have train and heavy construction factories, which with a bit of work, would be able to produce armoured vehicles.

Neither the PRC nor USA make that many tanks. The problem isn't the production numbers. It's the consistency. PRC just consistently makes tanks as a form of industrial subsidy to employ workers. USA consistently cuts tank orders and vacillates between DOD wanting to shutter Lima and Ohio Senators fighting to keep it open.

It's also unlikely there will be any train or heavy construction factories left if USA and PRC go to war anyway, for somewhat obvious reasons. The war would be a broken-back one in all likelihood, as both sides would try to strike electrical production and military industrial targets at least, from the outset. Whatever you had before is what you get, maybe less if depots or storage yards get bombed.

Stockpiles are more important now, in the age of intercontinental bombardment, than they ever were before. The "no rear area" applies to the home front too.

Only small and relatively inconsequential wars, like Korea or Vietnam, can be fought like WW2, which America (and Russia and China) are relatively well positioned to fight for substantial periods. Perhaps not win, but certainly slug it out. However, preparing to fight those small wars alone is just preparing to lose the next important war.

Tanks are cheap to make.

They are not in the slightest.

The cost of an M1 outweighs the cost of the entire crew by a factor of at least 4. Maybe more, now, since there are better M1s these days. It costs a shade over $130,000 annually in all accounts (insurance, housing, food, pay, etc.), about $50,000 to send a recruit through training, for a enlisted man on average, which we can truncate to $200,000 or so and not be far off, and an M1 tank costs about $8,000,000 or so back in the stone ages (the 1990's).

So you're paying $800,000 for an M1 crew and one year of service, but one of those guys will have about five years experience since he's a sergeant, so it's more like ~$2,000,000 total for a E-5, two E-4s with ~2 years experience, and an E-3 give or take ~1 year fresh outta AIT. Granted, not as an expensive as an airplane, but still quite costly, and losing crewmen is preferable to losing tanks, obviously. You can replace crews, at least as long as they're not sergeants or officers. Replacing tanks is much harder.

Also no, cost of raising a kid doesn't count here, it's just the cost of training. DOD isn't paying that cost because the US Army is a foreign legion. Non-citizens can enlist, take American names, and have a fast track to get a permanent residency after a four year contract. Thus it's not counted.

Point is: Machines stopped being cheap decades ago, unless you're Chinese, where machines are still cheap. Manpower is premium to the point that they hire European mercenaries to fly their fighter jets (don't let these pictures be posted on Twitter), but manpower is probably dropping in cost, not increasing, since they are training in combined arms with opposing force units similar to the US Army. Still no major war experience but not a big issue, as the US doesn't have much relevant war experience, either. Nowadays, neither manpower nor machines are cheap for the West, and likely neither will be cheap again.

Which means losing a war to the next guy where one or the other is cheap.

We've already lost the war to the guys where men were cheap (Iraqis, Vietnamese, Pakistanis, etc.).

Now we're waiting to lose the war to the guys where machines are cheap (Chinese). Better hope the USA can make either men or machines cheaper but I have my doubts on either case. At the moment though, men are cheaper, so losing men is better than losing machines. Maybe America can lean on its stockpiles and grind the Chinese tank hordes down with heavy artillery and entrenched light infantry while husbanding its precious armored corps.

The best hope is a sort of a reverse of Korea where the Chinese were light infantry grinding down the tank hordes of America with horse cavalry, but now it will be the US grinding down the Chinese tank hordes with Humvee cavalry. It's entirely possible, the US Army has a wealth of tactical knowledge and decent, gritty fighters, while no one really knows what the PLA would do or perform like in action. Last time they fought a war they got slapped by the Vietnamese, but the Vietnamese slapped America too, so that's not saying much. Koreans are also gritty guys.

However this helps explains the egregious quantities of Infantry BCTs in the National Guard if it makes you feel better, and why the US Army is composed of over half light infantry who drive around in unarmored Humvees and 5-tons and not a bunch of dudes in M1s and M2s FWIW.
Interesting= What's your take on the lessons learned fromb the Ukraine War? To keep up your analogy, I see the incredible importance of drones - cheap weapon systems and the operators, while not cheap are relatively safe. Artillery has become more prominent than I would have guessed, the these fancy artillery rounds aren't cheap either. Also, I understand Ukraine's supply problems but I am stunned at Russia's cupboards running bare.

It's not over, so how can one learn a lesson in an ongoing lecture?

Anyway Russia's cupboards are hardly bare, but their snack drawer might be depleted until the next trip to the corner store, to continue the analogy. To illustrate this, it's important to keep in mind the mobilization tiers of the Russian Army and MOD.

The first tier is the professional armed forces of contractniks with Ka-52s, T-72B3s, etc. This is committed to fight small wars.
The second tier is the Muscovite and SPBite reserves in the WMD and NMD who have T-72B1s, T-80Bs, etc. in their reserves.
The third tier is the various Kalmyk, Tuvan, and Central Asian reserve troops with T-62Ms, BMP-1s, etc. in their formations.
The "fourth" tier is various motor police and gendarmes such as the Rosguard and the SOBR troops, who are like U.S. SWAT.

The fourth has wartime duties of anti-partisan operations, as the NKVD did in the Great Patriotic War.

Ukraine is just the Russian Korean War, where a fairly professional corpus of troops, supported by third or fourth-rate conscripts from the boondocks, are trying to fight a bunch of dudes with fairly mediocre training but got dang that's a lot of dudes. Mass matters and remains the primary measurement by which wars are won. General incompetence and buffoonery can usually be forgiven if you have an order of magnitude more battalions than the other guy.

America's biggest ground forces weaknesses are its tiny military requirement meeting manpower pool means it will not be able to absorb casualties and its tiny munitions stockpile means it will run out of ammunition quickly (and begin taking casualties). These are not easily solved problems and unlikely to be solved in the coming decades anyway. America's biggest strategic weakness are its declining navy and air forces, again not easily solved, since the air forces suffer from the same mass and manpower restraints as everyone else, if not more.

Perhaps it can remove the requirement for fighter pilots to be officers and start training staff sergeants to fly jets. That is how the IJN solved its manpower pool constraints in the 1930's and made what might have been the best trained and sharpest minded peacetime air force in history. Loosening requirements doesn't necessarily have to be negative, after all.

So manpower and munitions shortages are the overriding primacy to new tanks or airplanes. Ship hull shortages are problematic but creative rationing of hull patrols and retreating imperial borders can reduce this burden. Money is not a concern, but mindfulness and policy consistency are lacking, as either DOD or Congress tend to flip flop every decade or so on certain important things, like what constitutes "important".

New tanks or airplanes would probably be in the top 10 or maybe top 20 of problems but definitely not in the top 5. For the most part America can probably get by with building more F-15EXs than JSFs and retaining its F-22/F-35/B-2/B-21 stealth aircraft as a professional corpus/silver bullet force, both in a general war and a small one.

Likewise the current M1A2s are good, and the new tank looks fine too, but there are a lot of older hulls in SIAD that could be given upgrades or refurbishments, or entirely new turrets, and used for reconstituting brand new divisions. The only problem is there might only be 5,500 tanks between active force and SIAD and the US has no capacity to build new hulls. So one of these concerns takes primacy: making new hulls rather than refurbishing old tanks.

Ideally the new M1s would be brand new hulls and brand new turrets, but they'll probably be factory zeroed hulls with new turrets instead. That's fine as long as America doesn't keep selling tanks to random foreigners, or else it might end up like Germany and find itself suddenly having no tanks left.
 
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Producing more and better M1s for and with US allies would seem more pressing at the moment than designing a new tank.
If it is the weaker US allies that lacks numbers (thus relying on conscriptions), budget and technology to oppose threats, what they need is conscript friendly vehicles with low operating costs (to ensure adequate training levels)

Abrams is not it. I wonder if wheeled fleets with AC-RWS + modernized ATGMs would have to be the backbone in practice. Certainty it is better to have well trained, fully mechanized force than a relatively small, poor trained (due to peacetime operating costs) force that have the advantage where a 4x2m front aspect armor plate being 20tons heavy and really tough.

Even if tanks aren't necessarily very expensive in the world of modern defense equipment, it is unnecessary in the strategic scenario of "stopping the aggressor wait for the superior economies of US lead economies organize a counteroffensive." There is no day 0 blitzkrieg that the United States is supporting right?

Iraq was probably genuinely damaging to the US Army's ability to conduct meaningful and realistic training since the lack of fight from the Iraqis gave America a lot of confirmation bias. That might just be pundits though. DOD proper (at least the Army) outside of the academic "wonk"/know-nothing circles seems to be taking Ukraine and Syria very seriously from the perspective of heavy force casualties.
What Syria and Ukraine have shown is that the American can easily stick to the strategy of spending on bombs and leave the dying to local allies. It can not always ensure a functional friendly regime if one didn't exist at the start, but it can ensure that the local economy gets reduced to the stone age level and is no threat in the conventional sense. (suicide bombers is another issue, but tanks hardly do anything and domestics are a bigger problem)

Of course there's not much Army DOD can do in this regard because the entire ball is in the USN's court as it stands. A new tank is mostly just going to be a hedge against ground force casualties in a limited intervention, mechanized colonial war like Syria or Ukraine or something where the enemy actually shoots back, but having thousands of tanks to lose instead of a few hundred is pretty important. Russia lost something like 1,500 tanks so far in their frankly limited/mid-intensity excursion, so it's not out of the question in a future Korean War-type conflict, the USA might simply end up running out of tanks after a couple years of action.
Given that the USN does not appear to be interesting in a Operation Pedestal, I don't think any heavy formation have any chance of getting into ground combat. Some air mobile formations is the only force likely to see action against A2AD.

Which is to say the future of ground support lies in the success of USAF DEW/MSDM, and general projective logistic capability is the decisive factor here, the other stuff don't even come into play without it.

As long as the US is on the side of the global economy with an advantage in the long game, bombardment warfare the stops the opponent is sufficient to buy time to figure out a endgame. Even if the Army runs out of tanks, there is no problem (given enough motivation of the war) waiting a few years until a new force gets built up, what is the opponent gonna do if it hasn't defeated USAF and USN?

Pre-WW2 US army posture to tank development (aka years behind, no reserves) wasn't a problem due to geology. It is all the new imperialist adventuring that makes a standing army important, when punitive bombardment works for enough of cases.

----------------------
Perhaps natures of combined arms will change in the future but no one knows what that future would look like and we're rather far from it.

A certain recent war has more shades of WW2 (especially that of the initial breakout operations from the Normandy landings to an uncanny extent) than it does any hypothetical, imaginary WW3, after all. And it is involving some of the biggest militaries and most advanced weapons (both directly and indirectly) on the planet, integrated with one of the most advanced geo-spatial intelligence-communication systems ever devised by men: So much for "reconnaissance strike complexes", as they still seem to be as hypothetical as they were when the Soviets imagined they might exist at some point in the future.
Drone technology is a reduction in the cost of air power. Long range precision strike technology is a increases in the striking capability of air power. The principles of air power is stable regardless of the price point.

Which is to say, interdicting strikes have superior effects than CAS. Collapsing the logistics systems is more efficient than defeating tanks on the march and is more efficient than bombarding tanks during battle or hiding away.

Instead of the stupid lavish funding USAF gets for busting tanks, which involved hundreds of smart munitions thrown at a problem until it goes away, what the recent war shows is that a dozen LRPS launchers with good targeting info can collapse a logistics system to reduce offensive power to nothing regardless of nominal difference in heavy equipment. Compared to the fancy airplanes and tanks, the PGM budget is light, and the impact disproportionate, for forces that have invested little into such capabilities relative to total stock.

Evaluating LRPS capability in Ruso-Ukarine war is not unlike evaluating machineguns in the 1 per battalion force density case as opposed to one per squad that it ended up with.

The same level of field force destruction, despite mass American airpower, was never seen in Bosnia or Kosovo, after all. Plenty of trees in the Balkans, as well as mountains and bridges, and other places to hide.
Forests and mountains is not favorable to MBTs, certainly not those with 5 degrees of gun depression. An fighting vehicle that is designed for combat in such a theater would have very significant changes in mobility, weapons, and defenses. The worst part is logistics, as the entire formation mobility collapsed to trucks and logistical insufficiency is campaign defining.

As top cover reduces the efficiency of air attack, low efficiency engagements do not work but high efficiency still does. An ground element translates to defeat not because a ground army in defensive terrain can't fight another ground army, but a ground army suppressed by air power can not mass, maneuver, have functional resupply necessary for a ground fight and would be defeated.
 
Yes, what I'm saying is that when the US has to rely on wars that matter, i.e. its own survival or continued international relevance, it will lose.

In such a case as in a major war, post-strategic nuclear exchange, the US will simply be forced to surrender. It's unclear if this would have been the case 50 years ago, because it never happened, but the US was probably better positioned and prepared to survive a major nuclear attack and continue fighting in 1982 than it is in 2022. It will happen eventually, and if it were to happen in the short to medium-term future (between now and the next 20 years I guess, i.e. the demographic horizon) the USA would be rather limited in its ability to continue fighting. Since the US nuclear stockpile is neither large enough nor general enough to target all of its ideological and political competitors at once, it will not only lose, but give way to international primacy to a competitor power. So it can't even lose spitefully, it just loses and gets carved up, like every dead empire before it.

The USSR, perhaps the only country besides Israel to consider the needs of national survival in modern war conditions, would not have. Its stockpiles were ample enough to conduct major ground offensives in the post-nuclear phase of the war, as the past 30 years proves, and its nuclear arsenal and targeting parameters were wide enough to target all of its international competitors and obliterate them from economic relevance for at least a decade, akin to how the Combined Bomber Offensive obliterated the German and Japanese economies but without the planes.

If the USA wants to be the world hegemon it should have simply spent the last 30 years seriously investing in the concept by hardening itself against attack and strengthening its ability to fight competitor empires. However, it did the opposite, and it is increasingly unlikely it will be able to recover from this, as it is not simply going to start producing advanced weapons by orders of magnitude higher quantities anytime soon. Which is unfortunate for it, but excellent for its enemies, because they only need to continue their present peacetime production levels if that.

This should be trivial for the PRC, which is only going to grow industrially until the mid-century or so, as Japan and Korea did.

If militaries have any purpose they are to be used to protect and preserve the moral-political institutions of the society they are attached to and composed from. The US military is rather bad at this, mostly because it is simply not prepared to do so, but also because the US writ large does not consider it a very important feature of militaries. It has excellent fighting prowess when it comes to the least important wars and as the war becomes more important the US's ability to win becomes more in jeopardy.

America has only decisively defeated opponents like Nazi Germany and Japan with the assistance of other empires, and every war afterward it has either lost (Korea and Vietnam) or won (Iraq invasions). Roughly, it wins the wars which matter less and loses the wars which matter more. Whether that's a deliberate feature or an unintentional one is an open question.

Perhaps America simply didn't get bombed enough in WW1 or WW2 idk. USSR seemed to have taken the idea to heart. Japan and Germany completely gave up the idea of being imperial powers, preferring to be regional brokers for the global empires, thus avoiding the need to be targeted by the competing empires.

Either way, buying new tanks is not a big deal. It may matter in a Second Korean War if America is able to meaningfully contribute to the subsequent occupation of DPRK after nuclear attack or something, which would be an improvement from America's prior small wars track record. It will not matter much in the war following a nuclear exchange between America and Russia or the PRC but nor will it harm this as both the PRC, Russia, and, perhaps in a more radical future, the European Union, are likely to continue introducing new and improved battle tanks over the coming decades.

As I said, new military hardware is less of a problem for America than simply not having enough hardware in the first place, but buying new hardware isn't a bad thing as long as the present stockpiles and numbers don't meaningfully decrease to pay for it.
 
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Yes, what I'm saying is that when the US has to rely on wars that matter, i.e. its own survival or continued international relevance, it will lose.

In such a case as in a major war, post-strategic nuclear exchange, the US will simply be forced to surrender. It's unclear if this would have been the case 50 years ago, because it never happened, but the US was probably better positioned and prepared to survive a major nuclear attack and continue fighting in 1982 than it is in 2022. It will happen eventually, and if it were to happen in the short to medium-term future (between now and the next 20 years I guess, i.e. the demographic horizon) the USA would be rather limited in its ability to continue fighting. Since the US nuclear stockpile is neither large enough nor general enough to target all of its ideological and political competitors at once, it will not only lose, but give way to international primacy to a competitor power. So it can't even lose spitefully, it just loses and gets carved up, like every dead empire before it.

The USSR, perhaps the only country besides Israel to consider the needs of national survival in modern war conditions, would not have. Its stockpiles were ample enough to conduct major ground offensives in the post-nuclear phase of the war, as the past 30 years proves, and its nuclear arsenal and targeting parameters were wide enough to target all of its international competitors and obliterate them from economic relevance for at least a decade, akin to how the Combined Bomber Offensive obliterated the German and Japanese economies but without the planes.

If the USA wants to be the world hegemon it should have simply spent the last 30 years seriously investing in the concept by hardening itself against attack and strengthening its ability to fight competitor empires. However, it did the opposite, and it is increasingly unlikely it will be able to recover from this, as it is not simply going to start producing advanced weapons by orders of magnitude higher quantities anytime soon. Which is unfortunate for it, but excellent for its enemies, because they only need to continue their present peacetime production levels if that.

This should be trivial for the PRC, which is only going to grow industrially until the mid-century or so, as Japan and Korea did.

If militaries have any purpose they are to be used to protect and preserve the moral-political institutions of the society they are attached to and composed from. The US military is rather bad at this, mostly because it is simply not prepared to do so, but also because the US writ large does not consider it a very important feature of militaries. It has excellent fighting prowess when it comes to the least important wars and as the war becomes more important the US's ability to win becomes more in jeopardy.

America has only decisively defeated opponents like Nazi Germany and Japan with the assistance of other empires, and every war afterward it has either lost (Korea and Vietnam) or won (Iraq invasions). Roughly, it wins the wars which matter less and loses the wars which matter more. Whether that's a deliberate feature or an unintentional one is an open question.

Perhaps America simply didn't get bombed enough in WW1 or WW2 idk. USSR seemed to have taken the idea to heart. Japan and Germany completely gave up the idea of being imperial powers, preferring to be regional brokers for the global empires, thus avoiding the need to be targeted by the competing empires.

Either way, buying new tanks is not a big deal. It may matter in a Second Korean War if America is able to meaningfully contribute to the subsequent occupation of DPRK after nuclear attack or something, which would be an improvement from America's prior small wars track record. It will not matter much in the war following a nuclear exchange between America and Russia or the PRC but nor will it harm this as both the PRC, Russia, and, perhaps in a more radical future, the European Union, are likely to continue introducing new and improved battle tanks over the coming decades.

As I said, new military hardware is less of a problem for America than simply not having enough hardware in the first place, but buying new hardware isn't a bad thing as long as the present stockpiles and numbers don't meaningfully decrease to pay for it.
What the hell is this word salad supposed to mean ?
 
It means that most of shin_getters points aren't particularly important because America's war history is colonial wars.

America isn't very prepared to fight and win a nuclear war, and no other country besides the Soviet Union was, but quite a few countries are probably better to handle the aftermath. The American Empire is something of an accidental creation.

We can leave aside the frankly bizarre statements he made like "forest and mountains are not ideal terrain for tanks" because I can hardly think of a better place to be in a tank, or that the Abrams is not "conscript friendly" (what is it then? it's certainly simpler than the M60). Other things, like saying that cost of munition decreases (it doesn't, PGMs are commensurately as expensive as their weight in conventional munitions, an Excalibur equates to about 10-50 conventional howitzer shells in Soviet norms, and costs about $80-100k, for instance, but they are fairly boutique and you can probably push them down to $20-40k with a good sized assembly line) are just wrong.

Most of his points rely on the assumption that American economic primacy will remain as a truism. That is a bit silly, as even George Bush Sr. tried to push through a limited ABM system, and one of FCS's main assumptions was that eventually America would be eclipsed or matched by its foes in technology.

When the technological differences are closed the only thing that matters at the end of the day is mass though. A large stockpile of guns and ammo is always a nice thing to have when you can't make guns and ammo anymore. The good news is that the new M1 turret thing will probably have fairly good FLIRs, and possibly UAS if the Optionally Manned Tank study pans out, thus it will be comparable to the latest European offerings like Challenger 3 and KF51.
 
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It means that most of shin_getters points aren't particularly important because America's war history is colonial wars.

America isn't very prepared to fight and win a nuclear war, and no other country besides the Soviet Union was, but quite a few countries are probably better to handle the aftermath. The American Empire is something of an accidental creation.

We can leave aside the frankly bizarre statements he made like "forest and mountains are not ideal terrain for tanks" because I can hardly think of a better place to be in a tank, or that the Abrams is not "conscript friendly" (what is it then? it's certainly simpler than the M60). Other things, like saying that cost of munition decreases (it doesn't, PGMs are commensurately as expensive as their weight in conventional munitions, an Excalibur equates to about 50-100 conventional howitzer shells in Soviet norms, and costs about $80-100k, for instance, but they are fairly boutique) are just wrong.

Most of his points rely on the assumption that American economic primacy will remain as a truism. That is a bit silly, as even George Bush Sr. tried to push through a limited ABM system, and one of FCS's main assumptions was that eventually America would be eclipsed or matched by its foes in technology.

When the technological differences are closed the only thing that matters at the end of the day is mass though. A large stockpile of guns and ammo is always a nice thing to have when you can't make guns and ammo anymore.
No country can will a nuclear war . Stop with this delusion that USSR or PRC would or can survive a nuclear war.
 
No country can will a nuclear war . Stop with this delusion that USSR or PRC would or can survive a nuclear war.

OK but I'm mostly just grumbling America didn't build one M1 for every T-72 ever when it had 30 years to do so without competition tbh.
 
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No country can will a nuclear war . Stop with this delusion that USSR or PRC would or can survive a nuclear war.

OK but I'm mostly just grumbling America didn't build one M1 for every T-72 ever when it had 30 years to do so without competition tbh.
No that would have caused more problems. That will definitely degrade the stock quality at hand.
 
No country can will a nuclear war . Stop with this delusion that USSR or PRC would or can survive a nuclear war.

OK but I'm mostly just grumbling America didn't build one M1 for every T-72 ever when it had 30 years to do so without competition tbh.
No that would have caused more problems. That will definitely degrade the stock quality at hand.

The US made 200 tanks per month on the brink of recession for several years and had no problem funding it. Funding a quarter that from half as many factories in the best economic years of America, though, would be completely trivial.

Well it would be if the Army would stop obsessing over replacing the M1 and just accept that it's the last major ground vehicle it will ever get in significant quantity.
 
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Unfortunately the Congress had been required to fight DOD tooth and nail just to get them to just accept 20 tanks/month. Instead of having 20-25,000 old-but-fine tanks, DOD has about 5,500 old-but-fine tanks, and is scrambling to try to get the factory to "just make more" now. Meanwhile when 30 years ago it was scrambling to close the plant
Then againwhat is thd point of 20k plus tanks?

We dont have crews to run them even in the BIG ONE. And it just make maintenance of the mothball ones a bjtch due to shear numbers. Mean that ALOT be neglected, even sitting in the desert each tank still needs 200k dollars and 120 hours of yearly maintenance EACH or it be render useless within a few years. Cause the SUN does nasty things to seals tracks and anything not metal.

Plus we can only sell so many cause the Brits, French, and Germans exist and need to keep THEIRS up. Then you have Russia and China taking every one else for dirt cheap prices...


The reason we dont make alot of M1s is that we dont have any reason too.

And we are not scrambling to make more tanks.

Trying to make more shells, but that is slowly picking up as the supply lines get sorted out.

Also you got it backwards.

Congress wanted to close down lima, and the DOD had to point out the issues with that.
 
Unfortunately the Congress had been required to fight DOD tooth and nail just to get them to just accept 20 tanks/month. Instead of having 20-25,000 old-but-fine tanks, DOD has about 5,500 old-but-fine tanks, and is scrambling to try to get the factory to "just make more" now. Meanwhile when 30 years ago it was scrambling to close the plant
Then againwhat is thd point of 20k plus tanks?

So when they die they can be replaced obviously.

Eventually America will fight a war comparable to WW2 or Korea again, and perhaps for several months. Maybe even a year. It does not have the firepower to do this presently, and it's hard to fathom America could sustain a fight akin to Ukraine for more than six months. Probably less than that.

We dont have crews to run them even in the BIG ONE.

Aside from that not being true, as conscription of every male 18-35 would find at least a few million souls, if this were the case America should not have an empire before it embarrasses itself in a major war.

Luckily, it isn't the case.

And it just make maintenance of the mothball ones a bjtch due to shear numbers. Mean that ALOT be neglected, even sitting in the desert each tank still needs 200k dollars and 120 hours of yearly maintenance EACH or it be render useless within a few years. Cause the SUN does nasty things to seals tracks and anything not metal.

America is rich, money isn't an issue. The Army would just be putting more money into real tangible things instead of fake irrelevant things like ASM or FCS or OMFV or whatever I guess. Better to have a decent tank today than a great tank...never, it seems. None of DOD's starry eyed visions for future armored vehicles have panned out. Little reason to assume it'll be much different.

The only thing that is consistent is that DOD has managed its armor fleet as is precisely because the Congress has kept Lima open.

Plus we can only sell so many cause the Brits, French, and Germans exist and need to keep THEIRS up. Then you have Russia and China taking every one else for dirt cheap prices...

America shouldn't sell any. It needs them all now more than ever, but if it had 20,000 tanks it could probably afford to make them for people if they ponied up the coin, because that line would be pretty productive and USA could afford to take a bit of a break from its whopping four or five dozen tanks a month lol.

The reason we dont make alot of M1s is that we dont have any reason too.

Again, that's not true. America has plenty of reason to make more tanks. It's only spent the last 30 years inventing reasons to make new tanks, of which there are entire litanies written of. The problem is that the tanks America wants and the tanks America can make do not match. Of course when I say America I mean "the Army" and literally no one else.

If the Army does not have a reason to make tanks, then why did it spend so many dozens of billions and decades trying to make Block III, a series of glorified not!CV90s, and now some new weird robotic tanks they made a mod for in ArmA. It clearly has reasons to make tanks. It just doesn't want the M1 for whatever reason. Hard to fathom why, it's only won ever major ground engagement it's been in. These fake video game tanks the US Army is finding for its new production roadmaps probably never even breached a berm.

And we are not scrambling to make more tanks.

Except yes, DOD is literally trying to get more tanks. It recently ate its own budget and slashed tank procurement for the coming years to pay for some far more dubious things like research and development probably. Since I don't think the latest budget request has been approved or anything it's still an open question how many tanks they will order refurbished from Lima.

It's not getting them funded partly because the tanks it wants are literally impossible and partly because Congress can barely afford to pass budgets nowadays. While DOD refuses to budge on certain, perhaps unnecessary, things to fund more tanks, Congress takes a much more conservative approach and funds the here now things rather than the future new things.

Tanks are a fairly low priority compared to bigger concerns America has, so this disconnect is probably fine, but America will get embarrassed in the next Korean War pretty badly. Then again it got embarrassed so bad in the first Korean War that DOD convinced itself it was the Congress's fault and not DOD's own incompetence.

That the DOD was one of the last agencies to fall into lock-step with the Budget Control Act and begin planning for budget cuts shows how fairly profligate and uncaring they are about real concerns I think. It's pretty in character for DOD, and specifically the Army, to prefer buying PDFs and Powerpoint slides for millions of dollars a piece in preference to armored vehicles.

The USAF and USN are pretty fine about it since one is just absolutely bullheaded to get as many JSFs as it can and the other is just mass producing DDG51s and SSN774s. The Marines seem to have recently caught whatever sickness ails the US Army though, unfortunate as they were arguably the only ground warfare branch that was worth the money.

Congress wanted to close down lima, and the DOD had to point out the issues with that.

No, I don't have it backwards at all.

DOD wanted to close Lima like it closed Detroit during the 1990 BRAC in 1993 to save money. This would be used for the now dead ASM program and Block III tank. Lima would be "in mothballs" from 1995 (last -A2 produced) to 2000, and opened again for Block III production at that time until around 2005 when Block III production would end. DOD again wanted to close Lima in 2010 to save money for recapitalization of the M1 between 2010 and 2013. Or maybe it was 2011. Either way, those are the two major points where Lima was facing closure.

All other times were just DOD refusing to budge on the budget until the Congress told them to and waffling on how many tanks out of between two and twenty per month they were going to be forcefed by the HASC that year.

You can thank SECDEF Aspin for the first one and Defense Army Undersecretary John McHugh for the second. The US Army has been its own worst enemy for the past 30 years. Now DOD wants to produce tanks but doesn't seem to realize that factories aren't battalions and can't be stood up in whole cloth inside a couple months.

It's a rather bizarre display and would be funny if it weren't so tragic.
 
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You can thank SECDEF Aspin
Aspin? Les Aspin? THE ASPIN? The guy who killed F401? God help us all.

On a more serious note, the US would have gained more from getting proper M1A2 upgrades and a more extensive and faster remanufacturing program for M1IP and M1A1 (basic M1s virtually died to M1A2 or engineering vehicle conversions) with an emphasis on performance and RAM-D than from more M1s that overwhelm the logistics and manpower of the US Army. 20k is beyond even what the late Cold War US wanted, with some 7.5/8K M1s and 6K M60A3s at best.

Off-topic, but the only period where the US should really have been a lot more aggressive with production rates is the 60s and early 70s (and late by proxy) when barely any M48s had been upgraded with M60 components in spite of those existing for nearly 15 years, and when the tank force was actually at half of its required strength. All when Lima was producing under 30 M60s a month. Worse than Leopard 1 production rates.
 

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