Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich by Dan Sharp

[newsdeskdan]

Fw-259 is a development of the 159, right?

The Fw 159 had the Jumo 210 B and the Fw 259 had the DB 601 but otherwise they were largely the same. The Fw 159 came first but they were actually worked on in parallel for over a year.

 

[sgeorges4]

any publication date?

 

[Zizi6785]

any publication date?

In September, maybe sooner

 

[newsdeskdan]

Just realised I was posting about this in the wrong thread. Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich is now back from the printers and copies are being sent out to everyone who pre-ordered one. gatoraptor asked whether the inside-the-covers content was identical in each edition. It is.
The only difference is the cover and the fact that each of the limited edition cover copies is individually signed by me and hand-numbered out of 400. Exactly 400 were printed with no spares and all have been sold except one - which can't be sold because I messed it up accidentally.

 

[CiTrus90]

Looks very cool, congrats!!

 

[athpilot]

Wow! Some truly unknowns here (at least to me...). Can´t wait until my copy arrives.

 

[edwest4]

The DFS 346. Anything never before published there?

 

[newsdeskdan]

The DFS 346. Anything never before published there?

Well, there's a drawing of the three-engined version. I think that's never been published before. Also, I don't think anyone's previously said that it was based on an Arado design and was originally designated 'HS-8'. I've covered the original design spec and the early development, whereas most of what I've read elsewhere concentrates on the Soviet postwar development.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Wow! Some truly unknowns here (at least to me...). Can´t wait until my copy arrives.

As with the previous one, it's a mix of projects which I think are previously unknown (Arado E 216, Arado E 570, Daimler-Benz SV Flugzeug, Jas P 5, Hi 23, AVA Air-Train, DFS Lotos, Gotha Rammstachel etc.) and known projects about which I have hopefully been able to elaborate with new information and previously unseen drawings (Arado E 500, Arado E 380, Focke-Wulf Strahlrohrbomber, Heinkel P 1068, Junkers Schnellstbombers, Messerschmitt P 07, Lippisch P 12, Messerschmitt Me 328 C, DFS Eber, DFS 228, DFS 346 etc.)

 

[newsdeskdan]

I should also say that in addition to Ronnie Olsthoorn's cover designs, forum members CiTrus90 and Zizi6785 have both contributed stunning artworks for this volume.
From CiTrus90, you'll find full colour 3-views and 3-quarter views of the B&V P 175, Jas P 5, Heinkel P 1068.01-84, DFS Eber (third version), Focke-Wulf Ta 152 with Napier Sabre II, Horten 'Projekt Horten', Junkers 100 ton flying wing, Me 109 S, Messerschmitt W-wing concept and Messerschmitt P 07-102.
Zizi6785 has produced his best profile artwork to date on the Arado E 570 jet fighter, DFS Eber (all three versions), DFS Jabo, Gotha Rammstachel (sting out and sting withdrawn), Junkers EF 109, EF 110, EF 111 and EF 112, and Lippisch P 12 I. Entwurf and II. Entwurf.

 

[steelpillow]

At last! But, err - I'd be extremely happy to take the messed up special edition off your hands. Any chance of that, maybe with a special price to go with it?

 

[edwest4]

The DFS 346. Anything never before published there?

Well, there's a drawing of the three-engined version. I think that's never been published before. Also, I don't think anyone's previously said that it was based on an Arado design and was originally designated 'HS-8'. I've covered the original design spec and the early development, whereas most of what I've read elsewhere concentrates on the Soviet postwar development.

The three-engine version I have not heard of before. The English language version of Arado Flugzeugwerke is scheduled for January 2020. I understand that it clears up some 'myths' and talks about their work in designing supersonic aircraft. Perhaps the false narrative that the Germans were not doing development work in the area of supersonic flight will be laid to rest. The Americans did capture a Mach 4.4 wind tunnel. By the way, the only book, in German, about the DFS was criticized by experts as 'not the whole story.' Thank you for your reply.

 

[sienar]

The 152 with the saber, is that like the spitfire that was re-engined with a db605? That is an evaluation aircraft for comparing engine/airframe.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The DFS 346. Anything never before published there?

Well, there's a drawing of the three-engined version. I think that's never been published before. Also, I don't think anyone's previously said that it was based on an Arado design and was originally designated 'HS-8'. I've covered the original design spec and the early development, whereas most of what I've read elsewhere concentrates on the Soviet postwar development.

The three-engine version I have not heard of before. The English language version of Arado Flugzeugwerke is scheduled for January 2020. I understand that it clears up some 'myths' and talks about their work in designing supersonic aircraft. Perhaps the false narrative that the Germans were not doing development work in the area of supersonic flight will be laid to rest. The Americans did capture a Mach 4.4 wind tunnel. By the way, the only book, in German, about the DFS was criticized by experts as 'not the whole story.' Thank you for your reply.

You could wait until 2020, or you could just read about it in Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The 152 with the saber, is that like the spitfire that was re-engined with a db605? That is an evaluation aircraft for comparing engine/airframe.

You'll have to read the bookazine and find out! You won't find that information anywhere else.

 

[GTX]

Any word yet re availability of the electronic version of this latest one?

 

[athpilot]

Today my copy arrived! And I knew it, most of the content is (was) truly unknown. For me, it is the best volume in the series (and I have them all). I learned so much new by just flipping through it (hopefully I got the time to read it at the weekend). I don´t want to say too much about the content, Dan provided the table of contnts, but there are some surprises: not only the sabre Ta 152, also the DFS 228 chapter is really good (incl. never seen fotographs; even in color), the Junkers design (and the great artwork!) and others. My favorite one is the chapter about Junkers Nurflügle (called the "German Wings"; I love these kind of wordplay...) and the fantastic four Junkers. The Messerschmitt patent´s chapter is amazing. Etc., etc. So highest recommendations! Fantastic job Dan!

 

[newsdeskdan]

Today my copy arrived! And I knew it, most of the content is (was) truly unknown. For me, it is the best volume in the series (and I have them all). I learned so much new by just flipping through it (hopefully I got the time to read it at the weekend). I don´t want to say too much about the content, Dan provided the table of contnts, but there are some surprises: not only the sabre Ta 152, also the DFS 228 chapter is really good (incl. never seen fotographs; even in color), the Junkers design (and the great artwork!) and others. My favorite one is the chapter about Junkers Nurflügle (called the "German Wings"; I love these kind of wordplay...) and the fantastic four Junkers. The Messerschmitt patent´s chapter is amazing. Etc., etc. So highest recommendations! Fantastic job Dan!

One of the things that always intrigued me about the DFS 228 was the fact that you only ever see the V1 in photos - which had a seated cockpit arrangement. But the only known original side view drawing was of the V2 - which had a prone pilot cockpit arrangement. I always wondered what the seated arrangement, notorious for giving the pilot extremely poor visibility for landing, was like in the V1. I was very fortunate therefore, just before the publication was about to go to press, to discover an original early design drawing for the V1 - which appears on p40. I had to get the pages redesigned to fit it on, so it's very small, but here's a larger version against a drawing of the more familiar V2 cockpit. The V1 cabin was far less complex - and somewhat shorter.

DFS 228 V1 (early design):




DFS 228 V2:

 

[Richard N]

The digital edition of Luftwaffe Secret Projects of the Third Reich is now available from Pocketmags: https://pocketmags.com/us/aviation-classics-magazine/luftwaffe-secret-projects-of-the-third-reich

It is listed on the Pocketmags site under Aviation Classics: https://pocketmags.com/aviation-classics-magazine/issues

Pocketmags is having one of their 99¢ back issue sales, so a number of the previous Luftwaffe Secret series back issues are available for 99¢ through sometime Monday.

The Pocketmags 99¢ Sale page: https://pocketmags.com/bankholiday

 

[steelpillow]

Totally amazing book, one of the best yet. Got my copy today in WH Smiths.
It has a wider historical spread than hitherto, from prewar biplanes to postwar airliners - designed for the British. How much did GTR Hill know, I wonder? He was on the Tailless Aircraft Advisory Committee (after he got back from Canada) and helped to organise the trips to Germany. But setting up the Hortens in Germany to compete directly with his own Pterodactyl VIII and Short-Hill transport projects, that is something else. Or were they sucking the Hortens dry without letting on that it was not for real? Revisiting the TAAC minutes with a fresh eye has just bumped up my agenda (In the National Archive, if you get there before me).
And so much about DFS and other oddball projects that I completely forgive limiting B&V to only a couple of them.
Rates the full three Top Stuff shades!

 

[Arjen]

I have just bought the electronic edition. One niggle: page 69 is upside down - easily fixed.
Agree with steelpillow - totally amazing

 

[edwest4]

Today my copy arrived! And I knew it, most of the content is (was) truly unknown. For me, it is the best volume in the series (and I have them all). I learned so much new by just flipping through it (hopefully I got the time to read it at the weekend). I don´t want to say too much about the content, Dan provided the table of contnts, but there are some surprises: not only the sabre Ta 152, also the DFS 228 chapter is really good (incl. never seen fotographs; even in color), the Junkers design (and the great artwork!) and others. My favorite one is the chapter about Junkers Nurflügle (called the "German Wings"; I love these kind of wordplay...) and the fantastic four Junkers. The Messerschmitt patent´s chapter is amazing. Etc., etc. So highest recommendations! Fantastic job Dan!

One of the things that always intrigued me about the DFS 228 was the fact that you only ever see the V1 in photos - which had a seated cockpit arrangement. But the only known original side view drawing was of the V2 - which had a prone pilot cockpit arrangement. I always wondered what the seated arrangement, notorious for giving the pilot extremely poor visibility for landing, was like in the V1. I was very fortunate therefore, just before the publication was about to go to press, to discover an original early design drawing for the V1 - which appears on p40. I had to get the pages redesigned to fit it on, so it's very small, but here's a larger version against a drawing of the more familiar V2 cockpit. The V1 cabin was far less complex - and somewhat shorter.

DFS 228 V1 (early design):

View attachment 618025


DFS 228 V2:

View attachment 618026

Thank you very much. The Hortens did well with the prone pilot arrangement.

 

[edwest4]

Just for your reference, here is a Japanese delegation examining a Horten flying wing in 1943.

C281 Langendiebach LS-Sch.S1 Besuch Japanische Delegation 1943 HORTEN Nurflügler | eBay

Finden Sie Top-Angebote für C281 Langendiebach LS-Sch.S1 Besuch Japanische Delegation 1943 HORTEN Nurflügler bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

www.ebay.de

 

[newsdeskdan]

I have just bought the electronic edition. One niggle: page 69 is upside down - easily fixed.
Agree with steelpillow - totally amazing

I'm told that the issue with p69 being upside down has now been fixed. Apparently if you've already bought the issue you need to either update your library or remove the issue and re-download it.

Also, Wurger asked me yesterday for a list of what the images around the edge of p3 depict. Well, the 23 images, clockwise and starting with the black and white photo in the top left corner, are of:
Luftschiffbau Zeppelin test on Daimler-Benz engine nacelle 'E' with four-bladed VDM prop, Apr 1945
DFS 39
Junkers EF 61 altitude chamber
Karl Stockel design for reclining pilot seat
Me 262 Heimatschutzer engine explosion photos
Graph comparing aircraft including Arado E 430, Ha 139, Ar 240 V9, Douglas DF etc.
Different Ta 152 annular radiator designs compared
Fw 186 rotor blade construction
Dornier Do 18 G
Focke-Wulf Fw 58 B brochure cover
DVL fighter design from May 1935
Wind tunnel model of Me 262 with belly cannon pack
Pirat H
Ta 183 fuselage drawing signed by Multhopp
Arado E 555 flap actuation model
Focke-Wulf Baubeschreibung Nr. 280 ('Flitzer') undercarriage detail
Ar 234 wind tunnel model
AVA AF2 'Suck Storch' report photo
British jet fighter drawing spotted in the January 1944 issue of 'Flight' and discussed by German intelligence
DFS G.B.I
Messerschmitt P 65 wind tunnel model with dive brakes
Five different Argus pulsejets
Blohm & Voss BV 141 V2 manual page 1

 

[newsdeskdan]

That British jet fighter. Thumbs up!

 

[Arjen]

I handled the upside down p69 in an offline copy, I just mentioned it as an issue to be fixed for other customers. The Horten airliner was a huge surprise - among all the other great material. Keep up the good work

 

[steelpillow]

That British jet fighter. Thumbs up!

"Tally-ho, chaps!"
So Flight wasn't giving too much away, then.

Seriously, I wonder how close the Ministry came to giving Gloster the single-engined and de Havilland the twin?

 

[TsrJoe]

re the jet depicted in Flight, it looks to be loosely based upon a 'Scaleline' drawing published in 1943 for solid scale modelling of a 'typical jet aircraft' (based upon the Italian Caproni Campini CC.1)

 

[TsrJoe]

just picked up Dan's latest volume in the excellent Luftwaffe projects bookazine series, I'd have to say the most interesting issue yet, the majority of the aircraft previously undocumented

 

[steelpillow]

It seems churlish to pick nits with such a wonderful piece of work, but I do feel obliged to warn folks of a minor woopsie on Dan's part. The lower image on Page 20 depicts a BMW study for a twin-engined swept-wing type which the caption describes as a "canard". The first odd note this sounds is that it thus appears to have pusher propellers, a powerplant configuration which BMW do not discuss (presumably because the hot jet efflux would bathe the gearbox and blade roots). The anomaly is resolved when close inspection of the fuselage reveals that the rounded end is at the bottom of the drawing and the tapered, pointy end with the tailfin seen from above is at the top. This is actually a forward-swept design with the engines on their mounting stalks at the front - and with tractor props too.
It is the caption which is the canard, not the design, and a different kind of canard at that (sorry, could not resist the play on words).

 

[steelpillow]

On Page 64 Dan writes, "Junkers, Heinkel and Arado had all carried out work on flying wings during the 1930s." Can anybody say any more about those studies, or point me at some useful sources?

 

[newsdeskdan]

It seems churlish to pick nits with such a wonderful piece of work, but I do feel obliged to warn folks of a minor woopsie on Dan's part. The lower image on Page 20 depicts a BMW study for a twin-engined swept-wing type which the caption describes as a "canard". The first odd note this sounds is that it thus appears to have pusher propellers, a powerplant configuration which BMW do not discuss (presumably because the hot jet efflux would bathe the gearbox and blade roots). The anomaly is resolved when close inspection of the fuselage reveals that the rounded end is at the bottom of the drawing and the tapered, pointy end with the tailfin seen from above is at the top. This is actually a forward-swept design with the engines on their mounting stalks at the front - and with tractor props too.
It is the caption which is the canard, not the design, and a different kind of canard at that (sorry, could not resist the play on words).

Did you read the whole text of that chapter or just the caption?

 

[newsdeskdan]

On Page 64 Dan writes, "Junkers, Heinkel and Arado had all carried out work on flying wings during the 1930s." Can anybody say any more about those studies, or point me at some useful sources?

This bookazine has a whole feature on one of the Junkers flying wings from the 1930s - p76-79. The Arado 1930s flying wing design, only known from a side view, appears on p95 of Luftwaffe: Secret Wings. Siegfried Günter makes reference to Heinkel's early work on flying wings during his address to the DAL following Lippisch's presentation on November 6, 1942. See p38-39 of Luftwaffe: Secret Wings, again.
Junkers is pretty well known for its early work on flying wings but the work of Heinkel and Arado only appears to be known from the transcript of that DAL presentation (the official DAL booklet, published later, doesn't include the post-presentation discussion during which Günter and Multhopp discuss their work) and Walter Blume's report on turrets, respectively.

 

[steelpillow]

Did you read the whole text of that chapter or just the caption?

So you think I might have gained my impression of "a powerplant configuration which BMW do not discuss" just from one errant caption? To paraphrase one Sir Humphrey, "How can I know what is not in the text until I have seen what is in the text?"

 

[newsdeskdan]

Did you read the whole text of that chapter or just the caption?

So you think I might have gained my impression of "a powerplant configuration which BMW do not discuss" just from one errant caption? To paraphrase one Sir Humphrey, "How can I know what is not in the text until I have seen what is in the text?"

So you read the bit where it explains the 'canards' on that drawing.

 

[newsdeskdan]

It seems churlish to pick nits with such a wonderful piece of work, but I do feel obliged to warn folks of a minor woopsie on Dan's part. The lower image on Page 20 depicts a BMW study for a twin-engined swept-wing type which the caption describes as a "canard". The first odd note this sounds is that it thus appears to have pusher propellers, a powerplant configuration which BMW do not discuss (presumably because the hot jet efflux would bathe the gearbox and blade roots). The anomaly is resolved when close inspection of the fuselage reveals that the rounded end is at the bottom of the drawing and the tapered, pointy end with the tailfin seen from above is at the top. This is actually a forward-swept design with the engines on their mounting stalks at the front - and with tractor props too.
It is the caption which is the canard, not the design, and a different kind of canard at that (sorry, could not resist the play on words).

I made myself the same remark: this is probably not a canard design, the flight direction is not towards the top of the page, but the bottom, or else the whole tail, fin included, would be facing to the front with the fin aerofoil section in the wrong way and moving surfaces on the leading edge of the stabilisator, and the area where the cockpit should probably have been would face to the rear. Admittedly, the forward-swept wing is misleading. The BMW 109-028 turboprop nacelles are the original, duct-in-spinner, tractor design, mounted on long pylons above the forward fuselage. The same project appears in "Geheime Projekte der Luftwaffe Band 2 : Strategische Bomber 1935 - 1945" by Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode as BMW Projekt II, in the proper flight direction. Beside this and a few typos, grammar or translation issues, a stunning book, extremely well researched and very interesting. In my view, highly recommendable.

I don't have the German version, but in their Luftwaffe Secret Projects Strategic Bombers 1935-1945 book it is interesting to see that Herwig and Rode take the trouble to provide performance stats for both designs - even though the original July 1944 document they both appear in makes it clear that they are purely conceptual (I don't see the word 'estimated' anywhere in connection with the stats Herwig and Rode offer). There is no mention of the context in which the designs were produced, the dating is inaccurate and since neither original drawing includes dimensions, presumably the length, span, height etc. confidently asserted for each by Herwig and Rode have been meticulously calculated, using the only known factor - the size of the BMW 028 - as a basis. Presumably.

 

[steelpillow]

Did you read the whole text of that chapter or just the caption?

So you think I might have gained my impression of "a powerplant configuration which BMW do not discuss" just from one errant caption? To paraphrase one Sir Humphrey, "How can I know what is not in the text until I have seen what is in the text?"

So you read the bit where it explains the 'canards' on that drawing.

I read the bit which refers to "the odd 'canard' PTL bomber" and goes on to explain about the outriggers, but on re-reading it I still cannot find anything which identifies the outriggers as the 'canards' on the odd PTL bomber. That is just as well really, because canards are lifting surfaces. Something like a forward fin or, as we have here, a couple of pylons, are not normally regarded as canard surfaces. The other issue is that some canard designs do look the spitting image of that drawing flying backwards, right down to the forward-swept fore stabiliser. So some clarity is needed in order to avoid the risk of confusion. It is that clarity which I have tried to provide here.

 

[steelpillow]

On Page 64 Dan writes, "Junkers, Heinkel and Arado had all carried out work on flying wings during the 1930s." Can anybody say any more about those studies, or point me at some useful sources?

This bookazine has a whole feature on one of the Junkers flying wings from the 1930s - p76-79. The Arado 1930s flying wing design, only known from a side view, appears on p95 of Luftwaffe: Secret Wings. Siegfried Günter makes reference to Heinkel's early work on flying wings during his address to the DAL following Lippisch's presentation on November 6, 1942. See p38-39 of Luftwaffe: Secret Wings, again.

Thank you!
Of course, I read those bits as well ... at the time ....

 

[newsdeskdan]

Did you read the whole text of that chapter or just the caption?

So you think I might have gained my impression of "a powerplant configuration which BMW do not discuss" just from one errant caption? To paraphrase one Sir Humphrey, "How can I know what is not in the text until I have seen what is in the text?"

So you read the bit where it explains the 'canards' on that drawing.

I read the bit which refers to "the odd 'canard' PTL bomber" and goes on to explain about the outriggers, but on re-reading it I still cannot find anything which identifies the outriggers as the 'canards' on the odd PTL bomber. That is just as well really, because canards are lifting surfaces. Something like a forward fin or, as we have here, a couple of pylons, are not normally regarded as canard surfaces. The other issue is that some canard designs do look the spitting image of that drawing flying backwards, right down to the forward-swept fore stabiliser. So some clarity is needed in order to avoid the risk of confusion. It is that clarity which I have tried to provide here.

The original report describes the configuration as 'eine Art Ente' - which I think means 'a kind of canard'. I'm sure I'll be corrected if that's wrong. Perhaps some of these designs have become so familiar to me I forget that some people will be seeing them for the first time. It never really occurred to me that the BMW design could be viewed as having anything other than forward-swept wings and tractor props. Looking at it now though, I can sort of see how someone might think it had conventionally swept wings, a HOTOL-like nose fin and pusher props.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Interesting that BMW, which produced the report 'Der Einbau des PTL-Geraets BMW 028' (EZS Bericht Nr. 48 EZV Nr. 592/44) in July 1944, was included on the recipient list of a report of November 27, 1943, by the LFA's Theodor Zobel (entitled 'Ein Weg zur Leistungssteigerung von Schnellflugzeugen') which included drawings like this: