Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich by Dan Sharp

If it is written, it is certain. More patience to wait until someone finds them!
 
There was a drawings in the book for them.
 
Does that book also have the 1081-1089 and 1091-1094?
 
The last Heinkel project was the P 1080, and it was unfinished. There are no wartime Heinkel project numbers higher than P 1080. The primary source information from Penzing makes that clear.
 
hesham said:
Zizi6785 said:
We have discussed this once, there are no such Heinkel projects
Click to expand...

What ?,who said that,in the book- Ernst Heinkel: Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge, eine Biographie (Die deutsche Luftfahrt),
you will find this.
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Hasan, I have that book. I can not find any mention of P.1090 or P.1095 in it. On which page did you find your description of P.1090 and P.1095? The highest P.-number mentioned in the book is P.1080.
 
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The Heinkel project list prepared at Heinkel projects Penzing.jpg Penzing. Plenty of room for additional projects beyond P 1080... but there aren't any.
 
Arjen said:
hesham said:
Zizi6785 said:
We have discussed this once, there are no such Heinkel projects
Click to expand...

What ?,who said that,in the book- Ernst Heinkel: Pionier der Schnellflugzeuge, eine Biographie (Die deutsche Luftfahrt),
you will find this.
Click to expand...
Hasan, I have that book. I can not find any mention of P.1090 or P.1095 in it. On which page did you find your description of P.1090 and P.1095? The highest P.-number mentioned in the book is P.1080.
Click to expand...
Hasan'ssource is the "Heinkel-Flugzeuge" at "Luftfahrtverlag Axel Zuerl" :

Numériser 2.jpeg Numériser.jpeg
 
That 'P 1095' looks remarkably like the P 1079.
 
Oh sorry,

I have just a pages from both books,that made me confuse,and if we don't have a drawings to those Projects,
it doesn't mean they were not existed,for example,the UK Royal Air Force Museum mentioned that there was
a Project to Heinkel called P.1130,that indicated the series of Heinkel reached after the WWII to this number ?.
 
You should be asking your self a few questions;

Why is this the only book to mention the 1090 and 1095?

Why doesnt this book, or any other for that matter, mention a 1081-1089 and 1091-1094?

Heinkel having a 1130 postwar doesnt indicate anything about a 1090 existing.
 
It's also worth considering the chronology. Heinkel simply wasn't that prolific with its projects and every project was designed for a particular competition or to meet a particular need. We know that P 1068 dates from the autumn of 1943. P 1073 is circa July 1944 - that's six projects in, say, eight months. P 1078 was December 1944 and P 1079 was circa February 1945 with P 1080 being, according to Siegfried Günter, "shortly before the end of the war" (from the P 1073 to the P 1080 is eight projects in, say, eight or nine months).
How reasonable is it to suppose that between the P 1080 (perhaps February or March 1945?) and the end of the war Heinkel suddenly managed to squeeze in another ten or even fifteen projects? By the end of March the Soviets had almost reached Vienna and the Heinkel staff were being evacuated. Given Heinkel's rate of project progression, there wasn't time for even one more project, let alone ten or fifteen.


P 1080 1.jpg P 1080 2.jpg P 1080 3.jpg
 
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OK my dear Dan,

but as least we know Heinkel reach to the number P.1130,of course after the war.
 
hesham said:
OK my dear Dan,

but as least we know Heinkel reach to the number P.1130,of course after the war.
Click to expand...

I have no evidence on that one way or another. If a primary source turned up indicating that this was the case I would believe it.
 
newsdeskdan said:
I have no evidence on that one way or another. If a primary source turned up indicating that this was the case I would believe it.
Click to expand...

You can ask or visit UK Royal Air Force Museum,and you will be sure.
 
hesham said:
newsdeskdan said:
I have no evidence on that one way or another. If a primary source turned up indicating that this was the case I would believe it.
Click to expand...

You can ask or visit UK Royal Air Force Museum,and you will be sure.
Click to expand...


What makes you think that the RAF Museum holds information about that?
 
I am not thinking,they already did,they published that in early 2000s on internet,but from about 10 years they
obscured and deleted a site which indicated to all world aircraft list ?.
 
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What was the website? It might be accessible on an archive.

Regardless Heinkel had plenty of time from 45 until they were absorbed by VFW in 1965 to do 50 projects.
 
Unfortunately postwar German designs fall outside the scope of my research and the scope of Luftwaffe: Secret Projects of the Third Reich.
 
One more sample.
Anyone's tip, what's that?
 

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Can someone please post that article from "Le Fana..."?
 
richard B said:
Zizi6785 said:
One more sample.
Anyone's tip, what's that?
Click to expand...


D.F.S Jabo mit Lorinantrieb , fighter OR bomber (1000 kg bomb)
The bomber was put to altitude as a Mistel .
2 versions , straight or sweepback wings .
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Hats off to Le Fana, it's a quality publication. It would be interesting to see when they did it and what they did with it.
 
I have only a copy from a friend . The model pictures were in color .
 

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richard B said:
I have only a copy from a friend . The model pictures were in color .
Click to expand...

Thanks! Do you know the date of the magazine? Interesting to see that in their re-draw they seem to have missed out the attachment point for the bomb. The text appears to be correct and based entirely on the report that accompanies the picture, which makes me think that the models are modern(ish) interpretations of how it would have looked rather than contemporary DFS models.
 
newsdeskdan said:
richard B said:
I have only a copy from a friend . The model pictures were in color .
Click to expand...

Thanks! Do you know the date of the magazine? Interesting to see that in their re-draw they seem to have missed out the attachment point for the bomb. The text appears to be correct and based entirely on the report that accompanies the picture, which makes me think that the models are modern(ish) interpretations of how it would have looked rather than contemporary DFS models.
Click to expand...
Sorry , I don't know the date . You are right , the models (original color pictures) are modern interpretation ...
 
Here is the answer,I posted it from le Fana 415,

Various DFS projects

Hi, old information from internet: DFS-12 target drone DFS-360 flying disc project as Mistel aircraft DFS-464 missile project to carried by DFS-360 DFS-611 -----? also the DFS.301 was unknown project and may be it was related to development of DFS.346.
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
 
We hope to see in this book;

- Arado SO-Geret a piloted version of E.377 flying bomb
- Blohm & Voss Ae M 41

Blohm und Voss Ae M 41

I have some microfilm from the NASM archives that shows an unknown Blohm und Voss Project. The drawings are labeled Ae M 41. Can anyone shed some light on this project? Gary Webster
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Daimler Benz Jager;

Daimler-Benz 60 "Jäger" project with MK 412 machine-gun

Unknown Daimler Benz? project published on Luftfahrt International Nº5 as "Daimler Benz 60 Konstruktionsbericht.K21" 21.01.1944
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- DFS Project as in le Fana 415
- Dornier, P.144,P.149,P.150,P.151,P.153,P.155,P.202,P.209,P.215,P.217,P.222 & P.223
- Dornier Volksjäger
- DVL Rammer

DVL Rammer Aircraft Project

Hi, the Germany DVL designed a Rammer aircraft project in 1944,and given the Patent P 87 683, intended to use against Allied bombers. Flugzeug Classic 7-2015
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Fieseler Volksjager

Fieseler "Volksjäger"

are there information or picture to Fieseler proposal to "Volksjäger" competition farce ? MLR had allready chosen Heinkel to build the "Volksjäger", but gave the rivalry company's a demand on proposals
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Fieseler P.19,P.22,P.29 & P.30

Gerhard Fieseler Aircraft

Following the sad passing of the author Manfred Griehl last November, I doubt his pending volume on Fieseler (Fieseler: Flugzeuge seit 1933 - Typenkompass) will ever see publication. This is a great shame as Gerhard Fieseler was a World War I fighter ace who was also a stunt, aerobatic and test...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Focke-Wulf Fw 259 Frontjäger
www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com

Germany Focke Wulf Aircraft

Focke-Wulf S 2 Focke-Wulf A 16 Focke-Wulf A 17 /A21/A29 Focke-Wulf GL 18 Focke-Wulf F 19 Ente (Duck) Focke-Wulf A 20 Focke-Wulf S 1 Focke-Wulf W 4 Focke-Wulf S 24 Focke-Wulf Fw A 21 Focke-Wulf...
www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com
- Focke-Wulf Langstreckenbomber 1936

Focke-Wulf Langstreckenbomber 1936

An unnamed design study abut long-range bombers from Focke-Wulf, dated 1936. Original document in German. http://www.farposst.ru/2011/03/11/Betrachtungen___252_ber_die_Entwicklungsm__246_glichkeiten_eines_Langstreckenbombers___Teil_1.html...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Focke-Wulf Project for a carrier borne aircraft

Focke-Wulf Carrier-borne aircraft project

At "Verzeichnis der Deutschen Militärflugzeug nach dem Entwicklungsstande vom 1.6.1036" we can read that Focke-Wulf had a project for a carrier borne aircraft back in those days, independent of the "Kleiner Borderkunder" , the future Fw62, rival to the Ar196. There is a lot to be known about the...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Focke-Wulf Stuka

Focke-Wulf Stuka

Dear Wurger suggested that I present also these ones, Focke-Wulf Stukas has never been discussed here according to the Search tool. I discovered it in Herbert Léonard’s book (of 1997, out of print alas now), discussed in the EF82 topic: I am the happy owner of a copy of the book "Stukas!"*...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Focke-Wulf Rammjager;

Various Focke-Wulf projects

Unlike the other German aircraft manufacturers, Focke-Wulf didn't use a consistent P.XXX/EF.XXX/E.XXX numbering system. Designations like Fw 249 were created post-war by aviation writers and should not be considered official RLM ones. (I have not had the courage to challenge Andreas about this...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Focke-Wulf Schnellbomber 1942

Focke Wulf - 'Schnellbomber' (1942)

Two unknown high-speed bomber project Focke Wulf with 2x222 C / D, dated September 1942.
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Focke Wulf Ta.153,I sent before a drawing to it
- Focke-Acheglis Fa.336
- Heinkel carrier borne aircraft Project;

Heinkel carrier borne aircraft project

Hi, after finally crossing my sources I present you guys a Heinkel project to embark in the "Graf Zeppelin" aircraft carrier. The well-known sesquiplane He114 was subject to an advanced design featuring retractable wheels (I don`t know about the tail one) and a bigger (full span?) lower wing...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Henschel bomber Project;

Bomber A contenders

Hello guys, what about the Bomber A? Yes, Heinkel He177 Greif, right? Ok, and the others? Most literature tells of a tailor-made requisition by the RLM to meet Heinkel`s already made plans of the heavy bomber, dive bombing capable Projekt P 1041. Vajda/Dancey`s book "German Aircraft Industry...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Henschel early Projects;

Various Henschel projects

and do you know Henschel P.72,P.76 and P.80? thanks. Hs P 72 was an high wing 2xBMW 801TJ transport (length:17,8 m) Hs P 76 was a project related and looking like the Hs 129 The Hs P 80 was a project between Hs 130A and Hs 130 E
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Henschel last Projects in your list;

Various Henschel projects

I have seen this book on Amazon.de : " Die Geschichte der Henschel Flugzeug-Werke A.G. in Schönefeld bei Berlin 1933 bis 1945" of Horst Materna , i hope will be published and english version and possible ebook version !!
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Junkers late EF Projects,which you mentioned it before
- Klemm Kl.152 & Kl.153;

Klemm Kl 153 "Späher" (Scout)

Hi, and who said the Kl-153 never used,it was twin engined light transport project,probably that Klemm twin boom Model,frankly I don't know. Flieger Revue Extra
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk

Klemm Kl 152 Project

Hello guys, I wonder if someone has some light to shed on this manufacturer`s project. It shares its RLM designation with the well-known Ta152, and is refered in "German Aircraft Industry and Production 1933-1945", page 286, by Ferenc Vajda and Peter Dancey. I know that Hans Klemm had a...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Klemm E.63 & E.64;

Klemm E.63/64

Hi all, in FlugzeugClassic August 2007 I,ve found two uknown Klemm projects for the unbuild aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin". At first the Klemm E.63. Maveric
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Messerschmitt Me.335 & Me.290;

Messerschmitt Me 290 – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre

pt.wikipedia.org pt.wikipedia.org

Various Messerschmitt projects

for slmvbs, I don't know that design and I think it was new. Messerschmitt P.1097 little known project: it was single seat mid-wing pulse-jet fighter,developed from P.1079.
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
- Siebel Mistel
- Weserflug Projects,which mentioned by my dear Wurger,here;

Weserflug Projects

Hi lads, Weserflug was incorporated in the mid 30`s, assuming the assets of the former Rohrbach works, and also fielding Dr. Adolf Rohrbach as chief designer. Take a look at this excellent site, unfortunatelly not updated for quite a long time...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk
 
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hesham said:
We hope to see in this book;

- Arado SO-Geret a piloted version of E.377 flying bomb
- Blohm & Voss Ae M 41
- Daimler Benz Jager;
- DFS Project as in le Fana 415
- Dornier, P.144,P.149,P.150,P.151,P.153,P.155,P.202,P.209,P.215,P.217,P.222 & P.223
- Dornier Volksjäger
- DVL Rammer
- Fieseler Volksjager
- Fieseler P.19,P.22,P.29 & P.30
- Focke-Wulf Fw 259 Frontjäger
- Focke-Wulf Langstreckenbomber 1936
- Focke-Wulf Project for a carrier borne aircraft
- Focke-Wulf Stuka
- Focke-Wulf Rammjager;
- Focke-Wulf Schnellbomber 1942
- Focke Wulf Ta.153,I sent before a drawing to it
- Focke-Acheglis Fa.336
- Heinkel carrier borne aircraft Project;
- Henschel bomber Project;
- Henschel early Projects;
- Henschel last Projects in your list;
- Junkers late EF Projects,which you mentioned it before
- Klemm Kl.152 & Kl.153;
- Klemm E.63 & E.64;
- Messerschmitt Me.335 & Me.290;
- Siebel Mistel
- Weserflug Projects,which mentioned by my dear Wurger,
Click to expand...


That's quite a shopping list.

- Arado SO-Geret a piloted version of E.377 flying bomb - I have the E 377 project brochure and there's no piloted version mentioned in it. I've seen no evidence that this is 'real'.
- Blohm & Voss Ae M 41 - I have those same drawings but there's nothing else on it.
- Daimler Benz Jager - I believe those are just engine layout arrangements, not plans for an actual aircraft.
- DFS Project as in le Fana 415 - Yes.
- Dornier, P.144,P.149,P.150,P.151,P.153,P.155,P.202,P.209,P.215,P.217,P.222 & P.223 - I think most if not all of these were already done in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich last year.
- Dornier Volksjäger - Dornier wasn't invited to tender for the competition. But the company did apparently design a single-jet aircraft but I've not found the original material on it.
- DVL Rammer - No, nothing on that.
- Fieseler Volksjager - This would be a prize indeed. People have been searching for it for years. Sadly, I've not found it either.
- Fieseler P.19,P.22,P.29 & P.30 - No.
- Focke-Wulf Fw 259 Frontjäger - I have a surprising amount on this and might do it soon but not this time.
- Focke-Wulf Langstreckenbomber 1936 - Nothing new beyond what you've already seen.
- Focke-Wulf Project for a carrier borne aircraft - Nothing new - but there seem to have been a huge number of carrier aircraft designs around the 1936-1938 period.
- Focke-Wulf Stuka - I have the construction description on this and might do it soon.
- Focke-Wulf Rammjager - This nearly went in the 'Known unknowns' chapter of Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich. It consists of two sheets of text dated Sept. 21, 1944. No drawing.
- Focke-Wulf Schnellbomber 1942 - These fit into the Schnellbomber competition of that period, for which a huge quantity of designs were created. Beyond that I've nothing new.
- Focke Wulf Ta.153,I sent before a drawing to it - I have plenty on this and will do it soon but not this time.
- Focke-Acheglis Fa.336 - No.
- Heinkel carrier borne aircraft Project; - No.
- Henschel bomber Project; - No.
- Henschel early Projects; - No.
- Henschel last Projects in your list; - There's nothing more than I've already included in Luftwaffe: Secret Designs of the Third Reich.
- Junkers late EF Projects,which you mentioned it before - Yes. And the previously unknown EFo designs I think I mentioned elsewhere, including what appears to be the earliest single jet aircraft design ever committed to paper (someone will no doubt prove me wrong!)
- Klemm Kl.152 & Kl.153; - No.
- Klemm E.63 & E.64; - No.
- Messerschmitt Me.335 & Me.290; - I don't believe there was ever a Me 335. Messerschmitt was given Me 334, then a few weeks later Dornier received Do 335. And the Me 290 seems unlikely.
- Siebel Mistel - I only have the same patent drawings you've already seen.
- Weserflug Projects,which mentioned by my dear Wurger, - No.
 
Thank you my dear Dan,

- for Arado SO-Geret,it was mentioned by Wikipedia
- for Messerschmitt Me.335,it was mentioned in the book,Vom Original zum Modell : Dornier Do 335
- something new for Zeppelin
Die Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GMBH 1942 bis 1945

Zeppelin projects

This is the Zeppelin project for a long-rage, high capacity land-based airliner. Only data I have are: 4 engines, 2000 hp each (actually this could be, 4 double engines, i.e. two 2000 HP-each engines coupled); structure similar to ZSO 523; hatch in the nose; upper deck arranged with 1st class...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk

- also from the book; X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945,any thing from those ?.
 

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I have not yet seen any description or document of the Heinkel P 1074. Does anyone have more information?
 
Basil said:
I have not yet seen any description or document of the Heinkel P 1074. Does anyone have more information?
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I found this, but it doesn't seem like a real plan.
 

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hesham said:
Thank you my dear Dan,

- for Arado SO-Geret,it was mentioned by Wikipedia
- for Messerschmitt Me.335,it was mentioned in the book,Vom Original zum Modell : Dornier Do 335
- something new for Zeppelin
Die Abteilung Flugzeugbau der Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GMBH 1942 bis 1945

Zeppelin projects

This is the Zeppelin project for a long-rage, high capacity land-based airliner. Only data I have are: 4 engines, 2000 hp each (actually this could be, 4 double engines, i.e. two 2000 HP-each engines coupled); structure similar to ZSO 523; hatch in the nose; upper deck arranged with 1st class...
www.secretprojects.co.uk www.secretprojects.co.uk

- also from the book; X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945,any thing from those ?.
Click to expand...


- for Arado SO version: Wikipedia = rubbish.
- for Messerschmitt Me.335: I don't have that book. What context is it mentioned in?
- Zeppelin: I do have a little more on the ZSO 523 but not enough to really do anything with.
- Griehl list. I know you regularly produce this list as evidence of projects that are 'beyond secret' but really Griehl's list is just a list of projects we already know, written in an annoyingly oblique way. For example, the various 'all-weather night-fighter aircraft' are what we know as the 2-TL-Jaeger designs such as the P 215 and P 256. The Focke-Wulf 'helicopter' is the Triebfluegeljaeger, the BV 155 development is probably either the P 205 or the BV 155 C. In other cases, he just states work that was ongoing. Yes, there were design studies showing the EF 130 (although we don't have them) and the Messerschmitt 'design studies of a long-range bomber aircraft' would be the P 1108.
I'm not going to go through the whole list one by one but you can hopefully see what I mean.
 
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My dear Dan,

- for Arado,maybe you are right
- for Messeschmitt,please see the text
- for Zeppelin,I meant those Projects
- for Griehl list,I think the FW helicopter was not Triebfluegel,and if we agree with your opinion,what about
Heinkel experimental helicopter ?
 

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hesham said:
My dear Dan,

- for Arado,maybe you are right
- for Messeschmitt,please see the text
- for Zeppelin,I meant those Projects
- for Griehl list,I think the FW helicopter was not Triebfluegel,and if we agree with your opinion,what about
Heinkel experimental helicopter ?
Click to expand...

Focke-Wulf wasn't working on any other rotor-wing aircraft. I suspect that the translation may be at fault here - Griehl probably didn't actually mean 'helicopter'. The Heinkel rotor-wing aircraft are the Lerche and Wespe. I don't have the Zeppelin rammers or that push-pull design - whatever it is.
 

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