Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

FighterJock said:
Not another F-22 accident? I do hope that the airframe can be fixed and returned to service, I would hate it if the USAF just put it on the scrap heap
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Anyone have a good veiw of the Tail numbers?

It be interesting if its the same one that had to land without gear.
 
IY5UJ4OJSBAC3L2SHPHVK6654E.jpg


Image from the mishap.
 
icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:
IY5UJ4OJSBAC3L2SHPHVK6654E.jpg


Image from the mishap.
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From looking at the photo of the accident, the damage to the F-22 does not look too bad from first impressions, though we will have to wait and see what damage was done to the fuselage and the landing gear to see if it can be fixed.
 
www.airforcetimes.com

Air Force wants to send Tyndall’s F-22 jets to the boneyard

The jets and their crews have been in limbo since Hurricane Michael hit the base in 2018.
www.airforcetimes.com www.airforcetimes.com

Looks like the USAF wants to retire the Block 20 jets, and spend the money from operating them into upgrading combat-coded Block 30/35 jets and NGAD. Honestly, I'm not sure if that's the best course of action. You now have to dedicate a portion of the combat-coded fleet for pilot training, which means fewer of those aircraft available for deployment. It seems like relocate the squadron from Eglin to Langley is expensive, and they think the money can be better spent elsewhere.
 
icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:
www.airforcetimes.com

Air Force wants to send Tyndall’s F-22 jets to the boneyard

The jets and their crews have been in limbo since Hurricane Michael hit the base in 2018.
www.airforcetimes.com www.airforcetimes.com

Looks like the USAF wants to retire the Block 20 jets, and spend the money from operating them into upgrading combat-coded Block 30/35 jets and NGAD. Honestly, I'm not sure if that's the best course of action. You now have to dedicate a portion of the combat-coded fleet for pilot training, which means fewer of those aircraft available for deployment. It seems like relocate the squadron from Eglin to Langley is expensive, and they think the money can be better spent elsewhere.
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Is China running the pentagon?
 
Breaking Defense has some more documentation.

breakingdefense.com

F-35 cuts, F-15 boost, and E-3 replacement: Air Force's $170B budget makes big moves in FY23 - Breaking Defense

According to two sources with knowledge of the matter, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall had tasked the service’s budget corps to consider cancelling the F-15EX. Instead, it will receive a plus-up in the FY23 request.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com

Tactical aircraft will also draw down significantly. For the first time, the Air Force wants permission to retire 33 of its old Block 20 F-22s, which Kendall said are not combat capable. Peccia said it would cost $1.8 billion to upkeep those aircraft over the next eight years if the service is not able to divest them.
…

Beyond the investments to buy additional F-15EXs and F-35s, the Air Force also plans to invest $344 million for advanced sensors for its F-22s.
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icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:
Breaking Defense has some more documentation.

breakingdefense.com

F-35 cuts, F-15 boost, and E-3 replacement: Air Force's $170B budget makes big moves in FY23 - Breaking Defense

According to two sources with knowledge of the matter, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall had tasked the service’s budget corps to consider cancelling the F-15EX. Instead, it will receive a plus-up in the FY23 request.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com

Tactical aircraft will also draw down significantly. For the first time, the Air Force wants permission to retire 33 of its old Block 20 F-22s, which Kendall said are not combat capable. Peccia said it would cost $1.8 billion to upkeep those aircraft over the next eight years if the service is not able to divest them.
…

Beyond the investments to buy additional F-15EXs and F-35s, the Air Force also plans to invest $344 million for advanced sensors for its F-22s.
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1.8 billion is a pittance to what the Fed government throws away. What happens when they realize they can save 3.6 billion and divest 66 raptors?
 
rooster said:
1.8 billion is a pittance to what the Fed government throws away. What happens when they realize they can save 3.6 billion and divest 66 raptors?
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Unfortunately, what that fails to take into account is the color of the money. $1.8B is a pittance in the procurement color, not so much for the O&M color. The O&M color doesn't employ folks in nearly as many congressional districts, so isn't as sexy...
 
rooster said:
icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:
www.airforcetimes.com

Air Force wants to send Tyndall’s F-22 jets to the boneyard

The jets and their crews have been in limbo since Hurricane Michael hit the base in 2018.
www.airforcetimes.com www.airforcetimes.com

Looks like the USAF wants to retire the Block 20 jets, and spend the money from operating them into upgrading combat-coded Block 30/35 jets and NGAD. Honestly, I'm not sure if that's the best course of action. You now have to dedicate a portion of the combat-coded fleet for pilot training, which means fewer of those aircraft available for deployment. It seems like relocate the squadron from Eglin to Langley is expensive, and they think the money can be better spent elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Is China running the pentagon?
Click to expand...

As if the USAF doesn't have enough F-22's already it is scrapping the Block 20 Raptors without thinking of trying to upgrade them instead madness. :mad:
 
It is a pity KF-21 Boramae can't be ordered as "stopgaps" between F-22 and NGAD, instead of F-15EX... and revamped F-16s.
:D:D
 
They would have an up to date fuselage they could equip with any sensors/weapons they wanted to.
 
The F-22 isn't a profitable platform in the eyes of Congress.

Campaign Coffers > National Security.
 
icyplanetnhc (Steve) said:
Breaking Defense has some more documentation.

breakingdefense.com

F-35 cuts, F-15 boost, and E-3 replacement: Air Force's $170B budget makes big moves in FY23 - Breaking Defense

According to two sources with knowledge of the matter, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall had tasked the service’s budget corps to consider cancelling the F-15EX. Instead, it will receive a plus-up in the FY23 request.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com

Tactical aircraft will also draw down significantly. For the first time, the Air Force wants permission to retire 33 of its old Block 20 F-22s, which Kendall said are not combat capable. Peccia said it would cost $1.8 billion to upkeep those aircraft over the next eight years if the service is not able to divest them.
…

Beyond the investments to buy additional F-15EXs and F-35s, the Air Force also plans to invest $344 million for advanced sensors for its F-22s.
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There does appear to be a Boeing bias in the acquisition. Fewer F-35s and Raptors but more F-15EX and E-7.
 
The article itself states that the desire is to slow F-35 production until Blk 4 is released, though as others have noted here this maybe a budgeting gambit by USAF.
 
Josh_TN said:
The article itself states that the desire is to slow F-35 production until Blk 4 is released, though as others have noted here this maybe a budgeting gambit by USAF.
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May be making room for F-35 production to go to newly interested allies e.g. Germany etc.
 
In_A_Dream said:
The F-22 isn't a profitable platform in the eyes of Congress.

Campaign Coffers > National Security.
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this is Air Force request, not congress. Congress will probably strike it down to retain f-22 fleet much like a-10. Air Force wants to divest funding from maintaining expensive 5th gen to speed up 6th gen given emergent competitions but it is operating under the assumption that 6th gen would come on time and within budget. Given its acquisition history, it is an insane assumption.
 
Unless the Air Force wants those Block 20 F-22s to keep scraping the runway with improperly rigged landing gear, they need to actually fund the move to Langley, or do something to alleviate the maintenance problems that the 325th FW is having.
 
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I'm sure if Congress let the USAF retire the A-10 they'd keep the blk 20s, even though they are only training platforms. <runs for shelter/>
 
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Congress won't let them do that, the USAF will still be flying A-10s and F-22s in 2090.
 
Apparently USAF is asking 234B $ budget for 2023, an increase of 37,5B $ accounting for inflation. Yet they cannot find 1,8B to support the F-22 fleet... Give me a break.

www.politico.com

Biden requests $813B for national defense

But skyrocketing inflation will drag the overall budget increases down
www.politico.com www.politico.com
 
The F-22s that would be retired are older Block 20 models now used for training, which no longer match up well with the combat fleet, forcing new pilots to relearn things once they get to combat units. Upgrading those, he said, would not be worth the cost, given other priorities facing the service.
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www.airforcemag.com

Air Force 'Would Buy More F-35s’ if Resources Allowed, Plans and Programs Chief Says | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Air Force plans and programs chief said budget compromises led to the decision to buy fewer F-35s in fiscal 2023.
www.airforcemag.com www.airforcemag.com
 
I don't understand why USAF is taking so long to field LIFT enmass. Using older block F-22 for training purposes only seems wasteful.
 
rooster said:
New missile being tested by a raptor. I'm guessing it's not the 260

www.thedrive.com

The Air Force Plans To Test-Launch A Mysterious New Air-To-Air Missile

The previously unknown Modular Advanced Missile is the latest addition to a growing collection of in-development air dominance missiles.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
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I don't see anything definitely precluding the AIM-260 from also being the modular missile. Since we know almost nothing about AIM-260 (short of it being the same size as AIM-120) then we can't conclude it's not also a modular design either...

Now if it's indeed NOT the AIM-260 then there's not too many options left, though. A very long range missile tested on a raptor would make little sense. There are far better suited platforms for a weapon like that. Raptor might suffer compromised RCS with such a weapon. Also, raptors small fleet and fairly early retirement date would not make much sense for investing in compatibility of such a weapon.

Only remaining AAM would be a short range AAM - something which the drive article dismisses as unlikely but I'd say it's actually more likely than a very long range AAM. For example, a modular seeker short range AAM might suit a stealthy fighter like F22 quite nicely. F22's may expect to get to fairly short ranges when fighting enemy stealthy planes. And then having an option between several subtypes of said AAM, depending on expected threat types might be beneficial.

The modularity may also refer to AAM seeker vs a ground strike seeker. Again, sidewinder was tested for such roles before so it wouldn't be surprising the air force went further and wanted to develop a truly twin role short range missile.
 
totoro said:
I don't see anything definitely precluding the AIM-260 from also being the modular missile. Since we know almost nothing about AIM-260 (short of it being the same size as AIM-120) then we can't conclude it's not also a modular design either...
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Yeah, these could conceivably be connected.

When AIM-260/JATM was surfaced in 2019, they talked about flight testing to begin in 2021. COVID and/or a decision to introduce alternative seekers/warheads (modularity) to the design could definitely have pushed that back a year or two, which would line up with the statement that MAM is to begin testing in the near future.
 
I believe AIM-260 testing has already been ongoing for a while. That doesn't mean this isn't further AIM-260 testing - certainly F-22 would be a prime candidate for carriage. I don't think there's enough info to say.

www.thedrive.com

Testing Of The Secretive New AIM-260 Long-Range Air-To-Air Missile Is Well Underway

Publicly released documents reveal that QF-16 jets have been regularly supporting the AIM-260 missile program.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
 
Wouldn't a True MAM be a solid fuel rocket with a strap-on ramjet module aside of simply some vintage 1960's RADAR/IR trick?
 
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So if the AIM-260 is to be carried by F-22's internally. Guess 3.8-4 m length and diameter ranged from 20-35 cm looks reasonable i guess ?
 
Relevant excerpt from General Nahom. Full Q&A in the links below.

www.airforcemag.com

Part 1: Q&A with Lt. Gen. David S. Nahom on the Future Fighter Fleet | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lt. Gen. David S. Nahom, Air Force deputy chief of staff for plans and programs, spoke about the future of fighters, tankers, bombers, and more.
www.airforcemag.com www.airforcemag.com
www.airforcemag.com

Part 2: Q&A With Lt. Gen. David S. Nahom on the Future Fleets | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Part 2 of an exclusive wide-ranging interview with Lt. Gen. David S. Nahom, Air Force deputy chief of staff for plans and programs.
www.airforcemag.com www.airforcemag.com

Air Force Magazine: Are you going to divest?

Nahom: We have to, because if you keep them, you’re going to spend some money. And we have to make sure that we’re not only getting the capabilities we need with some of the modern systems, but we also can’t waste money on aging systems that are not going to give us the years and the capability we need. And so there’s a balance there.

Air Force Magazine: So that’s why you’re looking to divest those F-22s?

Nahom: There’s just not a payoff. Now, I will say there’s a lot of money invested in the F-22, because we’re modernizing the F-22 in many ways, because it’s going to be our air superiority hedge for our nation for the next decade. It just is. And we have to make sure we modernize that appropriately.

So there is good money invested in the Raptor program, as well as modernization in F-16s, to get certain systems on the F-16s. There’s money still in the F-15Es, and certainly the F-15EX and associated systems with that. So we have a lot of investment in our fighter portfolio. Do I wish there was more numbers? Absolutely. I tell you, if you look at the average age of our fighter fleet, and you look at the average age of other fighter fleets around the world, including our Navy and our Marine Corps fighter fleets, and some of our closest allies, we’re nearly twice the age of all those fleets. And it’s just, it’s not where we want to be right now. And the only way to do that is to buy new—or have missions go away. But going back to that conversation about the combatant commanders and what they need out of the Air Force, we can’t reduce the size of fleets.

...

Air Force Magazine: Do you know, by chance, what it would have cost to upgrade the F-22 fleet that’s instead going away?

Nahom: I’ll check and see if we can share that. But you know, you have to wait. You’re looking at fifth-generation combat power. We have a fifth-generation airplane coming off the assembly line right now. And so you have to make decisions. Do you want to do this, or do you want to buy more F-35s? Because you’re not going to do both. And so I think we made a good risk, a good financial decision about putting the oldest F-22s in the boneyard while we modernize the majority of the fleet, and we make sure we keep our eyes on the future.

Air Force Magazine: And then how do you continue training the pilots for those F-22s?

Nahom: Well, it’s interesting, and I came out of the F-22, so I understand the difference between the two airplanes—the block 20s, which are the aircraft we’re retiring, to the Block 30, 35, which are our front-line fighters.

Because of the nature of the hardware and software in those airplanes, the difference [between] them is getting greater and greater over time, because we keep putting more capability on the operational Raptors that’s not being put on the training ones, because they don’t have the capacity. … And so what you’re finding is the students that go through the school, you learn on an airplane, [and] you really have to relearn a lot of things when you get to your operational units.

And we’ve gone through this over time. I mean, when I first started out, I went through my first F-15 school in the F-15A, and when I got to my operational unit, the F-15C, it was like almost a complete restart. You’ll see this in the F-16s as well—you see a big difference in the training airplanes.

You try to minimize it as best you can, so when a young kid goes through the training, when they show up to their operational unit, it’s a quick top-off, and they’re off to the races. It’s not that way with the Raptor right now. So, what we’re going to do is … we’re going to take some of those Block 30/35s and turn them into a training unit, and it will be able to train [students] at a higher level. And so you’ll have a much more full-up round when the young pilot shows up at his or her operational unit.

...

Air Force Magazine: So I want to talk about the [AIM-260 JATM] again, because Gen. Wilsbach talked about China in that context at AWS just recently. So does that buy back some capability? Does that create for us a new counter threat? Will it buy back some of the edge that the Chinese have with the PL-15?

Nahom: The 260 is a wonderful weapon, and we’re really looking forward to getting it in service. I think when you mix that with our platforms, certainly the Raptor and the enhancements we’re putting into the F-22, that is going to help us keep our advantage. But we can’t stop, because our adversaries aren’t stopping. And that’s why you see our investments in things like NGAD and moving past that. But we’re very excited about the upgrades we’re making to the F-22 and excited about integrating the JTAM onto that platform.
Click to expand...
 
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Josh_TN said:
sferrin said:
Josh_TN said:
Aim-260 is supposed to have the same form factor as AIM-120.
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Where did you see that?
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Traveling for Easter and on a cell phone but I’ll look it up when I get home. My understanding was that AIM-260 is limited to AIM-120 dimensions to be compatible with internal carriage and launchers in the F-22/35 fleets.
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Maybe in length but not necessarily 7" circular cross section?
 

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