While these F-16s are old they've received rounds of hardware and software upgrades since they were built and they're quite capable of air-to-air combat however what they're likely to be initially for is to intercept and shoot down Russian ballistic and cruise missiles along with drones such as the Shaheed 136.
Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon Developments
- Thread starter seruriermarshal
- Start date
While these F-16s are old they've received rounds of hardware and software upgrades since they were built and they're quite capable of air-to-air combat however what they're likely to be initially for is to intercept and shoot down Russian ballistic and cruise missiles along with drones such as the Shaheed 136.
Because it is a waste, F-16AM with APG-66v2 and AIM-120B won't be a match against Su-35S and Mig-31 with R-37 + A-50 support
I honestly think they will be fish a barrel, APG-66 is ancient compared to Irbis-E, much much shorter detection range.
AIM-120B is ancient compared to R-37
Last edited:
Ainen
I really should change my personal text
- Joined
- 25 August 2011
- Messages
- 586
- Reaction score
- 593
Can work against su-34 raids, there are dozens of them everyday, timing an intercept is possible.
As far as I understand，Ukrainians did successful intercept flights early in the war, forcing fights and even wvrs. It just was a pointless sacrifice due to technological/training gap.
F-16 doesn't need to match much later su-35, it needs to overcome largest pitfall in capabilities dividing two aircraft, developments of the 1990s. F-16A MLU checks all the boxes - digital radar with a proper interface, active missile, datalink(maybe starlink even), digital ew.
Lack of success in 2022 ultimately was a technical issue, not because they didn't try. Now they can try again, with a much better vehicle. Will it be enough, especially over static front infested by uav/islander pairs and sam coverage - time will tell.
As it has been pointed out several times upthread those AN/APG-66s have had significant hardware and software upgrades since those particular F-16A/Bs were manufactured it also doesn't preclude them from getting new fire-control radar systems that are available, also keep in mind those F-16s won't be operating on their own.
If they haven't got them already Ukraine will almost certainly be getting AIM-120Cs and probably AIM-120Ds as for the AA-13 Axehead from what I've read it has not been used to proper effect in Ukraine and an intact unexploded example was found by the Ukrainians in February 2023 and past on to western technical experts for analysis so the ECM gear the new F-16s that Ukraine is getting will almost certainly be calibrated to deal with an AA-13
In regards to those aircraft and the AA-13 I can see the US giving Ukraine a handful of AIM-174Bs to take out those aircraft especially the A-50 (And its' accompanying Il-22M airborne command post) as Russia only has a handful of those aircraft plus the MiG-31s as all threat aircraft are long out of production and can't be replaced if they're destroyed or damaged beyond repair.
Ainen
I really should change my personal text
- Joined
- 25 August 2011
- Messages
- 586
- Reaction score
- 593
All of them are 'calibrated' against each other, it's a constant process and I wouldn't read too deep into it; an/alq-213 isn't the most capable ew suit out there either. Those exposures ultimately matter for first week advantage.
If anything, amraam itself (other than D model with it's important - and probably jammable! - datalink) is quite an exposed weapon itself.
AA-13, on the other hand, remains as the most influential a2a missile of the war(a war where fighters are quite secondary beings in the first place), despite that dud.
May as well send them directly to Beijing.
First week advantage doesn't matter to Russia anymore, as it is in a critical conflict; any cool weapon, no matter how advanced, can be countered by organizational answer before any technical reply; R-37m is a perfect example - just time ops in a way to avoid meeting it and carefully control fighter maneuvers - and it's good.
For US, on the other hand, every single exposure comes at a cost of their first day advantage(s) on their main theatre. Both for them and their allies, who most often don't have money or touch to update compromised solutions fast enough.
Exposing aim-174b (urgent enabler) before there are even proper stocks of them(and provided an/apg-66 can even support such an engagement) - navy will be excited.
Even APG-68v9 is far cry from IRBIS-E level, to be somewhat competitive, these F-16 need APG-80 at the very list, but APG-80 require additional cooling which pretty much only available on F-16E/F
I think there are pretty much zero chance of US giving any AIM-174B to Ukraine, they aren't even willing to give AIM-120D let alone the air launched SM-6
Russia have somewhere like 500 Mig-31, and they lost like 3-4 in this war, I don't think it run out any time soon
That may change if the US serious about Ukraine eliminating as many A-50s and Il-22Ms as possible.
They will change their minds if they're serious about Ukraine being able to take out these threats.
No, the USSR produced 519 MiG-31s of all variants before production ended in 1993 and Russia only has a small fraction of those 519, IIRC a number of them were scrapped in the 1990s.
Scott Kenny
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 15 May 2023
- Messages
- 7,802
- Reaction score
- 7,808
I'd actually rather expect Ukraine some how "acquiring" one of the new Gryphon systems, the containerized Mk41 canisters with RIM174s or Tomahawks. Patriot system has controlled SM6s before.
Forest Green
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 11 June 2019
- Messages
- 6,992
- Reaction score
- 11,031
Only has 526 fighters in a mission ready state in total right now.
2024 Russia Military Strength
Detailing the current military strength of Russia including air force, army, navy, financials and manpower.
www.globalfirepower.com
- Joined
- 27 December 2005
- Messages
- 16,756
- Reaction score
- 20,819
Su-27 for sure. How about we return to the topic of F-16...
How about what kind of possible hardware and/or software upgrades Ukraine's donated F-16s might get in the near future?
I can foresee some OFP updates but nothing really serious before the war ends.
Forest Green
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 11 June 2019
- Messages
- 6,992
- Reaction score
- 11,031
F-16s Delivered To Ukraine With Advanced Countermeasure Pods For Self-Protection
Ukraine's F-16s came with additional self-protection features that will help them survive a very dangerous battlespace.
www.twz.com
Colonial-Marine
UAVs are now friend, drones are the real enemy.
- Joined
- 5 October 2009
- Messages
- 1,290
- Reaction score
- 952
Correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like these countermeasures pylons are supposed to retain some weapons capability too. I wonder why we haven't seen them fitted with another pair of AIM-9s or AIM-120s. Perhaps the UAF doesn't have as many air-to-air missiles as they'd like to have? Or they just think it's unlikely a pilot would use more than four in a sortie?
The UAF won't any problems getting AIM-9s (Hopefully they'll be getting AIM-9Xs soon) or AIM-120s as NATO has a shit-load of them.
Alex Hollings from Sandboxx has just put out a video about Ukraine's new F-16s:
Not that long ago I had the opportunity to sit next to a Viper driver for a 5-hour flight. Being a fellow aviator with green ink in my logbook we talked a bit of shop. The out sticked Mig-31 to Viper was one of the things I kind of shuddered about, but he calmly talked me through why it wasn't as big of a fear as I thought. Needless to say, I will NEVER discuss TTP here, but that mismatch is well thought through.
Ainen
I really should change my personal text
- Joined
- 25 August 2011
- Messages
- 586
- Reaction score
- 593
They aren't that big of a problem even for old Soviet jets Ukraine operates - unless vks will decide to break in for a second DEAD "big week"; over a SAM stalemate, tactics alone negate losses to an acceptable level.
Problem is that while it isn't that big of a fear, there's little to be done here without accepting more losses - still in one-sided engagements.
It's honestly telling that over the Frontline area, the easiest (fighter) opponent f-16 can meet is su-35(!). Su-30sm don't operate near front lines anymore (though they drop bombs in Kursk, but that's an exception deeper in Russia), and other options are even worse.
Problem is that while it isn't that big of a fear, there's little to be done here without accepting more losses - still in one-sided engagements.
It's honestly telling that over the Frontline area, the easiest (fighter) opponent f-16 can meet is su-35(!). Su-30sm don't operate near front lines anymore (though they drop bombs in Kursk, but that's an exception deeper in Russia), and other options are even worse.
Forest Green
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 11 June 2019
- Messages
- 6,992
- Reaction score
- 11,031
F-16s Team With JSX-2 Microjets To Replicate Complex Cruise Missile And Drone Attacks
Attacks involving waves of cruise missiles and drones are becoming increasingly commonplace and present major complications for defenders.
www.twz.com
Manuducati
ACCESS: Secret
- Joined
- 25 November 2020
- Messages
- 265
- Reaction score
- 767
The F-16 Mid-Life Update is an evolving process, with multiple "MLU tape" stages.
F-16 MLU are indeed compatible with LANTIRN pod (and others as the SNIPER XR), JHMCS, and - with the latest standard - AIM-9X, AIM-120D, GBU-39 SDB and many other weapons.
Interesting article about (Belgian) F-16 MLU fleet history: https://www.keymilitary.com/article/forty-years-belgian-falcons
Pictures from above source with SNIPER XR pod and JHMCS.
Attachments
Interesting they have AIM-9M on station 8 and AIM-120 on station 9 with the Terma PIDS pylon on station 7. Was hoping the aircraft would be equipped with AIM-9X from the start.
IMO I thinks it's just a matter of time before the Ukrainians receive donated AIM-9Xs.
They already have them for NASAMs, https://theaviationist.com/2024/05/29/ukraine-fires-aim-9x-from-nasams/
Scott Kenny
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 15 May 2023
- Messages
- 7,802
- Reaction score
- 7,808
Better to use up the AIM-9Ms from aircraft.
They're not bad missiles, just not as good as AIM9X. and the -Ms are free.
They would be perfectly adequate for shooting down Russian cruise-missiles and Shaheed-136 drones but I'm not sure if they have the performance to successfully intercept an AS-24 Killjoy or an SS-26 Stone.
Forest Green
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 11 June 2019
- Messages
- 6,992
- Reaction score
- 11,031
View: https://x.com/northropgrumman/status/1827345121462857807
www.northropgrumman.com
F-16 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) | Northrop Grumman
The AN/ALQ-257 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) is designed to give F-16 electronic warfare (EW) capabilities on a par with fifth-generation aircraft, significantly enhancing survivability for operations in contested and congested electromagnetic spectrum environments.
www.northropgrumman.com
Forest Green
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 11 June 2019
- Messages
- 6,992
- Reaction score
- 11,031
Electronic Warfare Systems On Ukraine's F-16s Getting Specially Tuned To Russian Threats By USAF
The U.S. is using its highly classified threat library to improve the chances of survival for Ukraine's F-16 and to gather critical intel in return.
www.twz.com
Electronic Warfare Systems On Ukraine's F-16s Getting Specially Tuned To Russian Threats By USAF
The U.S. is using its highly classified threat library to improve the chances of survival for Ukraine's F-16 and to gather critical intel in return.
No surprise there and I won't be surprised if the Russians massively hyped (IMO overly hyped) AA-13 Axehead LRAAM doesn't work as advertised against Ukraine's new F-16s.
Now that makes sense given how much success in the last few months Ukraine has had in damaging and destroying oil-refineries and storage depots, they figure that once the Ukrainians have more F-16s they'll start going on the offensive targeting more oil-refineries.
Forest Green
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 11 June 2019
- Messages
- 6,992
- Reaction score
- 11,031
Pretty incredible really. The most successful aircraft of its generation.
Now that the first six F-16s have arrived in Ukraine and have already performed one combat-mission so far I wonder how long it will be before the Ukrainians will develop an air-launched version of their highly successful R-360 Neptune anti-ship missile* to be carried by their new F-16s?
* The Ukrainians appear to be going the SLAM/SLAM-ER route with the Neptune.
* The Ukrainians appear to be going the SLAM/SLAM-ER route with the Neptune.
Scott Kenny
ACCESS: Above Top Secret
- Joined
- 15 May 2023
- Messages
- 7,802
- Reaction score
- 7,808
It'd be a lot of work to get the Neptune to talk to the 1760 data bus. Though if any of the UkrAF planes were refitted with the 1760 data bus before the war it'd be a lot easier.
Assuming that no old hardware has the 1760 bus, I'd expect the Neptunes to stay as Fulcrum-Flanker weapons until the war is over or the UkrAF has no Soviet hardware left in service.
Similar threads
-
-
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)
- Started by Triton
- Replies: 5K
-
-
-
USAF/US NAVY 6G Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news- Started by Matej
- Replies: 7K