Lockheed Martin AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM)

Shusui those ports or marks you mentioned near the front of JATM - you reckon they are sensors or attitude control related?
They looked similar to the flat antenna you see on stealth fighters. No openings or ports visible for a gas thruster system but it could very well not have shown these as it was probably a drop test model only.

You still need to be able to detect the target if you're hit-to-kill.
Can you show me a hit to kill missile with an advanced target detection system like this and yellow markings for a warhead section?

I'm curious tho if weight of AMRAAM Seeker was ever published.
I believe there are pictures of the seeker in several places but I don't know that I've ever seen the weight of these specific components published publicly. There may (or may not) have been some leaks about this exact subject on a certain game forum a few moons back.
 
I'm more curious on the seeker department. AESA seeker might means strapdown, this demand high bandwidth autopilot, the missile will need to be "sensitive" in compensating for target maneuver means highly unstable for increasing agility. Other than that tho, what's likely frequency ? afaik current AMRAAM works in Ku-band some 18 GHz. Recently there seems to be a switch or move towards higher frequency for better target resolution. Ka-band seems to be favored with some 35 GHz.

This will impact the TRM numbers required to "fill" the array. Assuming a Full FOV array (120 deg of arc scan angle) a Ku-band seeker would need 195 TRM while Ka-Band 739. for AMRAAM form factor. the TRM for Ka-band would weigh roughly about 3.3 Grams, a quad brick architecture can weigh less, about 10 grams for 4 channels due to elimination of extraneous cooling wall materials and integration of the module control. 739 TRM would be about 2 Kg in total AESA antenna weight.

TRM contributes to about 9%-70% of total weight of the entire AESA radar (taken from Zhuk-AE and some other example, e.g Retia's MADR concept). 9% would give seeker weight of some 27.5 Kg while optimistic 70% would give 3.5 Kg for the total weight of the radar.. which i assume applies well to active seeker. I'm curious tho if weight of AMRAAM Seeker was ever published.
What about stuff like this? (A LM product BTW.) MHTK

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Or maybe a larger, faster EAPS?


(EAPS and MHTK seem to be used interchangeably but there are at least three different missile configurations shown.)

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Can you show me a hit to kill missile with an advanced target detection system like this and yellow markings for a warhead section?
PAC-2/-3/-3 MSE don't have yellow stripes nor are there any hit-to-kill AAMs currently deployed. As for a hit-to-kill missile with advanced target detection, PAC-3 has an active seeker. If anything, an "advance target detection system" would be MORE necessary for a hit-to-kill weapon.

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Surely at high altitude aerodynamic agility declines due to reduced air density, while TVC and gas thrusters should maintain or increase their effectiveness?
gas thruster doesn’t change direction of travel if the motor is not burning. So it basically only shift the missile body side way. So it can be useful against ballistic warhead and not very effective against things that can change their course significantly like an aircraft.
TVC also only work if the motor is burning.
That why i think neither can replace lifting surface at BVR range. ( unless the missile use something like a ramjet)
 
That why i think neither can replace lifting surface at BVR range. ( unless the missile use something like a ramjet)
A multiple pulse motor can use a final last-second pulse to change direction rapidly as needed when combined with a TVC system but I don't think one (TVC) is used here.

If anything, an "advance target detection system" would be MORE necessary for a hit-to-kill weapon.
Well, as I said it has a yellow band which to me indicates a warhead section is used. The side facing detection devices don't really scream useful to me when used in conjunction with a hit-to-kill weapon that must use the nose as point of impact.
 
A multiple pulse motor can use a final last-second pulse to change direction rapidly as needed when combined with a TVC system but I don't think one (TVC) is used here.


Well, as I said it has a yellow band which to me indicates a warhead section is used. The side facing detection devices don't really scream useful to me when used in conjunction with a hit-to-kill weapon that must use the nose as point of impact.

Lethality enhancers give a small lethal area around the missile, even if it is nominally hit-to-kill. But they are usually pseudo-proximity fuzed, fired just before the calculated impact time, based on a forward-looking sensor or fuze (TDD these days).

You could well have a set of side thrusters to make an endgame adjustment in course just before impact. No idea if that's what they are doing here, though.
 
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Lethality enhancers give a small lethal company area around the missile, even if it is nominally hit-to-kill. But they are usually pseudo-proximity fuzed, fired just before the calculated impact time, based on a forward-looking sensor or fuze (TDD these days).

One way to improve the effectiveness of a missile is to direct the energy from the detonation of the warhead towards the target. Directional warheads are known that contain directing charges. In some systems, called mass focus systems, the directing charge deforms the shell of the missile. When the main explosive charge of the warhead explodes, the shrapnel tends to be focused towards the deformed region. In other systems, called velocity focus systems, a directing charge is detonated and creates a shock wave in a particular direction. The explosion of the main explosive charge while the shock wave is present causes shrapnel in the direction of the shock wave to have a greater velocity.

 

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I always thought PAC-3 did this so it didn't just punch a hole in an aircraft. If you break the missile apart right before impact you dump all the energy into the aircraft.
 
Bring_it_on - “tuning” the blast toward the target (or leading it -FOD kill?) might fit with an apparent ring of hexagonal sensors, as well as perhaps fitting with evolved, adaptable, target-specific fusing. perhaps much might be explained if I understood how USAF and USN think BVR missiles will be defeated at end game against peer level competition.
 
Bring_it_on - “tuning” the blast toward the target (or leading it -FOD kill?) might fit with an apparent ring of hexagonal sensors, as well as perhaps fitting with evolved, adaptable, target-specific fusing. perhaps much might be explained if I understood how USAF and USN think BVR missiles will be defeated at end game against peer level

Post in thread 'Lockheed Martin AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM)'

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...anced-tactical-missile-jatm.31927/post-759811

I think it could be some sort of secondary terminal guidance with integrated fuzing mechanism and smart aimpoint selection. If they have gone down the path of a LE or focused warhead solution, you would certainly need those things to ensure lethality, particularly against low observable and in a complex ECM environment.

perhaps much might be explained if I understood how USAF and USN think BVR missiles will be defeated at end game against peer level competition.
It is obviously difficult or impossible to try to understand the guiding principles that were used to frame requirements for next generation weapons (plural because there are other programs as well besides just JATM). But it is quite safe to say that modern EW and countermeasures, low-observable aircraft, and low-observable aircraft coupled with ECM are all things that future beyond visual range weapons would be challenged by. So if you think about from a warhead standpoint, particularly if you go with a directional / focused lethality enhanced concept (to save weight and gain performance) then you need to invest in having some sort of mechanism that helps you smartly figure out aimpoint selection (hopefully with some logic that is utilizing some vulnerability assessment of the target), detonation timing and directionality etc. It is integrating fuzing with guidance but perhaps also utilizing some sort of additional terminal capability..
 
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Shusui those ports or marks you mentioned near the front of JATM - you reckon they are sensors or attitude control related?
If they were attitude control related, I'd expect a large number of marks like on that PAC-3 missile image. Not just a couple of rings, but 8-12 rings.

Lots of rings like this.


Unless they were there to deceive prying eyes it had "front fins", well, sort of. It is a very unconventional style.
Like small strakes or something? Because it really seems like the optimum air-target-intercepting missile design has strakes with tail fins, like ye olde Standard Missile.
 
Scott I agree i was just double checking as it begs the question of the interaction of the terminal kinetics of a variable or multi pulse motor (albeit after perhaps a beefier arc), a directionally sculpted warhead effect that could turn ‘almost’ into hard kills and whatever AESA augmentation in the seeker system to enable the above in a post modern ECM environment.

i am proceeding from the assumption the above are some of the cardinal differences between JATM and an optimally lofted, big-battery’d 120D3.
 
It would be quite useful if it has an IIR seeker, unfortunately we don’t have that
 
It would be quite useful if it has an IIR seeker, unfortunately we don’t have that

Where does the current guidance system fall short? Can you share specifics?

Or datalink antennas as on the HQ-9.

They appear to be some sort of conformal RF antennas. While they may support communication, they could very well also be there to support something else (for example, a multi-mode guidance system) or be multi-functional and support multiple things.
 
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Where does the current guidance system fall short? Can you share specifics?
Additional IIR seeker can be useful against low RCS targets lor targets with very good jamming system. After all, USA leadership think it would be very helpful to give podded IRST to every single one of its fighter from F-16 to F-22.
 
Additional IIR seeker can be useful against low RCS targets lor targets with very good jamming system. After all, USA leadership think it would be very helpful to give podded IRST to every single one of its fighter from F-16 to F-22.

Its there for a reason no? Like, you must have found their current system lacking in some material way? Or is it just something that should be there anyway? If the latter, why just a dual mode system? Why not a tri-mode or a quad mode system? 2 or more additional modes will be significantly superior to what you propose (a dual mode system).

We cannot really make sense of what the guidance system on JATM is based on these images. Certainly some interesting elements are present in the Navy's graphics, but well short of details on how JATM intends to navigate the significantly richer EMS environment, and low observables. We simply don't know.
 
Its there for a reason no? Like, you must have found their current system lacking in some material way? Or is it just something that should be there anyway? If the latter, why just a dual mode system? Why not a tri-mode or a quad mode system? 2 or more additional modes will be significantly superior to what you propose (a dual mode system).
A tri mode consist of what exactly? Semi active laser obviously would be a bad choice for BVR combat. At most, I could see some useful in adding passive anti radar seeker.
Quad mode doesn’t even make sense.
 
A tri mode consist of what exactly? Semi active laser obviously would be a bad choice for BVR combat. At most, I could see some useful in adding passive anti radar seeker.

Again, instead of just simply throwing 'modes' and making stuff up, let's focus on what we know of the existing guidance system. You seem to think they needed to do better. Can you show where the current system is deficient? So they can fix it in subsequent upgrades?
My point, if it was not clear, is that we just don't know what approach they have taken. They could well be using a multi-mode approach to guidance and targeting. You cannot make that out from graphics of weapon on a slide.
 
My point, if it was not clear, is that we just don't know what approach they have taken. They could well be using a multi-mode approach to guidance and targeting. You cannot make that out from graphics of weapon on a slide
I’m speculating based on limited information we have, just like everyone else here. Sure, we can’t know for certain that it doesn’t have an IIR seeker. Maybe it just hidden from the graphic. Or maybe the photo is just a place holder because they want the whole thing to be classified as much as possible. But similarly, we can’t know for certain the rocket motor length either. That why we speculate. Could be right, could be wrong.
 
I’m speculating based on limited information we have, just like everyone else here. Sure, we can’t know for certain that it doesn’t have an IIR seeker. Maybe it just hidden from the graphic. Or maybe the photo is just a place holder because they want the whole thing to be classified as much as possible. But similarly, we can’t know for certain the rocket motor length either. That why we speculate. Could be right, could be wrong.
There is no forward facing IIR window far as I could tell and the hexagonal patterns on the side look like radio based proximity fuses to my untrained eye. The graphic appears to be missing the forward nubs.
 
There is no forward facing IIR window far as I could tell and the hexagonal patterns on the side look like radio based proximity fuses to my untrained eye. The graphic appears to be missing the forward nubs.
Yeah, that my conclusion too.
 
I’m speculating based on limited information we have, just like everyone else here. Sure, we can’t know for certain that it doesn’t have an IIR seeker. Maybe it just hidden from the graphic. Or maybe the photo is just a place holder because they want the whole thing to be classified as much as possible. But similarly, we can’t know for certain the rocket motor length either. That why we speculate. Could be right, could be wrong.


There are things we can speculate from what we think we know based on information shared by the program, graphics shared by the Navy, and Air Force, and visual observation made by a fellow member here. We can then bump those against some of the things we can dig up on the AF or Navy's research, development, science and technology investments in the counter air, or next gen munition space to see if this makes sense. Another element to look at would be what elements exist or stand out in some of the other advanced missiles fielded or proposed for the AF and other customers. Based on those, we can try to understand with some low to moderate accuracy what characteristics/attributes JATM might have.

For example, @Shusui highlighted some elements of the design of the missile based on visual inspection and tied them back to what the AF had shared back in 2022 and highlighted some similarities to previous AMRAAM proposals. Similarly, we can note that next gen missiles fielded or proposed by OEM's involved in JATM have had a motor to overall length approaching or even exceeding 50% vs a significantly lower number (about 30%) for the AMRAAM. Navy's graphic points to that trend continuing which would make sense. Similar guesses can be drawn about warhead and other design elements related to that based on what the AF has invested in over the last two decades.

Now when we look at seeker and guidance...there is obviously nothing you can make out from the graphics released by the AF/Navy. Other than there is no clear/apparent IR window. All that may rule out is the presence of an IR mode for the terminal seeker. What it does not rule out is other advanced concepts of overcoming ECM to include other dual-mode/band possibilities. We simply don't know anything in this regard, but we do have some research that the USAF has done (easy to look up if one spends some time researching) looking into this area and try to answer how the AF/Navy think next gen counter air weapons need to :


i. Find and kill targets in a complex EW and ECM environment
ii. Field seekers and concepts that address challenges associated with LO and highly maneuverable targets
iii. Challenges associated with i+ii

Common sense would dictate that having some sort of capability covering i-iii would be a pretty core element of the JATM effort (things the next gen weapon and weapon concept simply have to address). So all we can do is some research to see what the path the USAF could have chosen based on what its funded (at the unclassified level) and then compare that with what we learn about JATM over time.

I find that to be a more productive approach then to simply characterize an unknown (to us) design approach and attributes as inadequate and advocating for another design element even before having even rudimentary understanding of the solution actually adopted on the weapon. There are smart ways to approach speculations which I think has advanced the discussion here on JATM..and then there is just guesswork (we were literally speculating TRM count for seeker a page or two back :eek:)..and your argument goes beyond that in advocating for a guidance approach and claiming it to be superior against the one adopted on the program when exactly nothing is known about the approach actually adopted by the program ;)

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There are things we can speculate from what we think we know based on information shared by the program, graphics shared by the Navy, and Air Force, and visual observation made by a fellow member here. We can then bump those against some of the things we can research about the AF or Navy's research, development, science and technology investments in the counter air, or next gen munition space to see if this makes sense. Another element to look at would be what elements exist or stand out in some of the other advanced missiles fielded or proposed for the AF and other customers. Based on those, we can try to understand with some low to moderate accuracy what characteristics/attributes JATM might have.

For example, @Shusui highlighted some elements of the design of the missile based on visual inspection and tied them back to what the AF had shared back in 2022 and highlighted some similarities to previous AMRAAM proposals. Similarly, we can note that next gen missiles fielded or proposed by OEM's involved in JATM have had a motor to overall length approaching or even exceeding 50% vs a significantly lower number (about 30%) for the AMRAAM.
Frankly, I would say that deducing motor length from the photo that doesn’t show the internal parts is dubious at best, and arguably much less accurate compared to just saying that missile doesn’t have an IIR seeker based on the photos.

Now when we look at seeker and guidance...there is obviously nothing you can make out from the graphics released by the AF/Navy. Other than there is no clear/apparent IR window. All that rules out is that a likely absence of an IR mode of terminal seeker.
And that is what I said so I’m not quite sure why you protest?.

What it does not rule out is other advanced concepts of overcoming ECM to include other dual-mode/band possibilities. We simply don't know anything, but we do have some research that the USAF has done (easy to look up if one spends some time researching) looking into this area and try to answer how the AF/Navy think next gen counter air weapons need to :
Common sense would dictate that having some sort of capability covering i-iii would be a pretty core element of the JATM effort (things the next gen weapon and weapon concept simply have to address). So all we can do is some research to see what the path the USAF could have chosen based on what its funded (at the unclassified level) and then compare that with what we learn about JATM over time.
I find that to be a more productive approach then to simply characterizing an unknown (to us) design approach and attributes as inadequate and advocating for another design element even before having even rudementary understanding of the solution actually adopted on the weapon.

View attachment 760680
I never claimed that the AIM-260 lacks countermeasures against ECM or low RCS targets, such as advanced signal processing, a dual-frequency seeker, or other technologies.
However, unlike IIR seeker, which is a certain way to overcome ECM. A dual band radio frequency seeker still have chance of being affected by jamming. It all depend on the technology level of both side.
Or let me make a more obvious example: do we know if AIM-260 seeker can overcome jamming done by something like NGJ or Britecloud?. We don’t. Maybe it can, maybe it can’t, maybe it depend on RCS value and distance, maybe it depend on version, maybe it depend on number of jammer, maybe it depend on altitude…etc.

But if the question is: “can AIM-9X IIR seeker overcome jamming done by NGJ or Britecloud?”. Then we can answer yes quite easily, simply because it operate in different spectrum.
Moreover, an IIR seeker enables silent engagements without triggering an RWR alert . All of that is why i said IIR seeker is useful. Pretty much the same reason why they added IRST to everything from F-16 to F-22 now.
Of course, you can also argue that may be they added Lidar seeker to the missile and just hidden it from view, and may be you are correct, who know. If we know for sure then it wouldn’t be speculation.
 
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Putting this here because the version of the image other people here have been using is like 10 pixels and hurts my eyes. Source for the presentation is here.View attachment 760650

Thanks for that. Anyone have any guesses as to what is the nub dorsal mounted 2/3 down the length is?

ETA: nevermind, I think it is just the rear support lug with the forward one being less prominent due to the brown band.
 
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Putting this here because the version of the image other people here have been using is like 10 pixels and hurts my eyes. Source for the presentation is here.View attachment 760650
that is the busiest f****** PowerPoint I have seen in my life. Hopefully no one died when whoever presented this went to the third slide.

I guess since we've already seen this thing in CG with the F-22 a while ago that this doesn't count as a big reveal. We already knew. There is definitely a lot more detail on here than in the F22 CG though.
 
There is no forward facing IIR window far as I could tell and the hexagonal patterns on the side look like radio based proximity fuses to my untrained eye.
Yes, that makes sense. But number of different antennas and pattern looks interesting. The AIM-120 has a targeting device as well..but we don't see it as prominently on renders or views of that weapon. Were these visible in the article you saw?
 
Yes, that makes sense. But number of different antennas and pattern looks interesting. The AIM-120 has a targeting device as well..but we don't see it as prominently on renders or views of that weapon. Were these visible in the article you saw?

Are not the TDDs of AIM-120 optical?
 
However, unlike IIR seeker, which is a certain way to overcome ECM.
Until someone hides their plane by diving behind a wall of flares. Sure IIR seekers can discriminate between flares and an aircraft, but they can't physically see a plane hidden completely behind flares. Then there's DIRCM too of course. Then you've got added seeker weight and space, both of which reduce range.
 
Until someone hides their plane by diving behind by diving behind a wall of flares. Sure IIR seekers can discriminate between flares and an aircraft, but they can't physically see a plane hidden completely behind flares.
Flares is IRCM not ECM. Anyway, that why having seeker operating in different spectrum is useful. You have RF seeker to counter IRCM and IIR seeker to counter ECM.
and btw, your tactic would work with chaff as well to be honest. If you can throw enough flares to hide your aircraft from IIR seeker. Then you could also throw enough chaff to hide your aircraft from RF seeker. Both case require perfect timing and significant amount of countermeasure though.
 
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Then there's DIRCM too of course.
DIRCM also limited by the quantity of threats that it can deal with at once, and Su-57 is the only fighter currently known to carry DIRCM turret. Maybe because it has negative impact on overall RCS?.
 
Flares is IRCM not ECM. Anyway, that why having seeker operating in different spectrum is useful. You have RF seeker to counter IRCM and IIR seeker to counter ECM.
and btw, your tactic would work with chaff as well to be honest. If you can throw enough flares to hide your aircraft from IIR seeker. Then you could also throw enough chaff to hide your aircraft from RF seeker. Both case require perfect timing and significant amount of countermeasure though
But mostall fighters operate both.

Much harder to do with chaff, the thing about flares is their affect spreads out across the seeker, with the sun itself being the ultimate flare, whereas chaff doesn't.
 

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