Leopard 2 Tank Developments

the issue is not production side, it's agreement side, KNDS and Leonardo, because both were found to be not flexible in the agreement, but still the issue is mostly on the agreement side, i belive that if Rheinmetal tries to pitch in the program KNDS will likely reconsider the option and come back to Leonardo, Leonardo must get the best deal if they want to put any italian hardware and software on the tank, the IFV program must also be considered but to me it sounds and looks a lot more like a temporary setback in general and personally i would prefer the 2A8IT because that would be made here, by us and with our equipment with the specific goal of building tanks here to recover the italian industry capability for tank building, so far the program is well funded but still has to chose a winner, the options are 2 for the IFV (technically 3): RH with their KF-41 (likely trying to also dupe us into buying the KF-51), Bae with the CV-90EVO (and i don't know what tank because i very much doubt we would buy Challenger 3) and technically the K-21 korean ifv (Redback) which would also likely include a K2 insert, the Koreans would likely let us do whatever we want with the hull but honestly i do not know, i still stand by the idea of the KNDS/Leonardo split as a temporary setback and yeah, that's all.
 
MihoshiK said:
Puit the 140 Ascalon on it, give it a coax machine gun, and then we're talking.
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I think I'm leaning more towards the 130mm, assuming that both 130mm and 140mm have the same case diameter but the 130mm is longer.

As to the coax, can we go to a .338 MG already? An AFV or IFV coax MG has the best stabilization and targeting available, let's go ahead and give them a 1500m or more MG!
 
Colonial-Marine said:
Looks like it might be missing a coaxial machine gun. Forgivable if it's just a demonstrator but I'd want the real deal to have one.
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Scott Kenny said:
As to the coax, can we go to a .338 MG already? An AFV or IFV coax MG has the best stabilization and targeting available, let's go ahead and give them a 1500m or more MG!
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The Leopard 2 A-RC seems to use the RCT120 turret, first presented by KNDS at Eurosatory 2022 on the Boxer Tracked. The brochure for this combination also has a section of Technical Data applying to the turret and i would expect this to mostly also apply to the Leopard 2 A-RC:
Main weapon: 120 x 570 mm smooth bore gun with automatic loader
Elevation: -10°/ >20°
Ammunition: 15 rounds in turret (optional: automatic reloading from chassis)
SDRI: State-of-the-art multispectral sensor suite (incl. independent gunner and commander sight)
RCWS: Machine gun 12.7 x 99 mm (modular scalability)
Missile weapon system: Anti-armor / multi-purpose missile system SPIKE LR2
Protection system: Active protection system Trophy, smoke grenade launcher
Optional coax gun: Up to 30 x 173 mm
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On the new variant of the turret, the cleft seems to be more pronounced and the gun mounted higher, so i would expect that the elevation numbers have changed. The number of ready round might also have been increased, considering that it is now stated as "> Leopard 2".
 
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Colonial-Marine said:
Looks like it might be missing a coaxial machine gun. Forgivable if it's just a demonstrator but I'd want the real deal to have one.
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Seeing how it's missing more standard features than just the coaxial, like crew periscopes, I'd say it's most likely a demonstrator or non-finalized prototype. I know it's using cameras for crew awareness, however armies tend to be hard to let go of features that work fine currently, speaking from personal experience.
 
Perdikofas said:
Seeing how it's missing more standard features than just the coaxial, like crew periscopes, I'd say it's most likely a demonstrator or non-finalized prototype. I know it's using cameras for crew awareness, however armies tend to be hard to let go of features that work fine currently, speaking from personal experience.
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Agreed. Even AbramsX put periscopes in the crew hatches. This demonstrator (or whatever it is) only seems to have one hatch in the glacis and no vision blocks at all. That would never fly in a real combat vehicle.

I mean, you can kinda see what they're aiming for -- improved and continuous armor protection across the whole glacis without weak spoks for hatches or vision blocks. But there needs to be a way out of the hull for the whole crew, and an option to ride head out when not under fire or when the optronics are degraded.
 
Voltzz said:
On the new variant of the turret, the cleft seems to be more pronounced and the gun mounted higher, so i would expect that the elevation numbers have changed. The number of ready round might also have been increased, considering that it is now stated as "> Leopard 2".
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1000045648.png
A friend of me send me this which he said is a patent for a new ammunition Rack from KMW (its from 2022). This could fit perfectly into this turret with space for 24 rounds.
 
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Nice new render of the Leopard 2A8. Please notice the new arrangement of the Trophy radar panels.
Source (German):

Kampfpanzer Leopard 2: Fähigkeitsforderungen und systembestimmende Randbedingungen

Der Kampfpanzer (KPz) Leopard 2 stellt das Rückgrat der gepanzerten Streitkräfte und das Hauptwaffensystem zum Kampf gegen gegnerische Panzerverbände da. Dabei ist er insbesondere für den hochmobilen Kampf im direkten Duell mit gegnerischen Kampfpanzern ausgelegt.
esut.de esut.de
 

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fightingirish said:
Nice new render of the Leopard 2A8. Please notice the new arrangement of the Trophy radar panels.
Source (German):

Kampfpanzer Leopard 2: Fähigkeitsforderungen und systembestimmende Randbedingungen

Der Kampfpanzer (KPz) Leopard 2 stellt das Rückgrat der gepanzerten Streitkräfte und das Hauptwaffensystem zum Kampf gegen gegnerische Panzerverbände da. Dabei ist er insbesondere für den hochmobilen Kampf im direkten Duell mit gegnerischen Kampfpanzern ausgelegt.
esut.de esut.de
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I'm still not convinced that's a good spot for the radars...

Taking a slice off the outside corners of the spaced armor Pike Nose would seem to be better to me (about the spots shown in the FCS art). As is, those radars are going to take a lot of main-gun hits.
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1802662680978702468

The two crew hatches are much more noticeable from this angle.
It also confirms that there is a second compartment for a retractable ATGM launcher to the right of the RCWS.
I am skeptical of the utility of the launchers considering that they must displace a lot of ready rounds.
 

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Voltzz said:
I am skeptical of the utility of the launchers considering that they must displace a lot of ready rounds.
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If this is the same turret as the KF51 and the 130mm main gun, then yes any ATGM or other missile launcher will displace ready rounds.

This source claims # ready rounds is 20, 10 per side. If you use a missions / missile pod it takes the place of a magazine making the ready rounds equal to 10 which seems absurdly low to me.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1800488329206706287
 
Voltzz said:
It also confirms that there is a second compartment for a retractable ATGM launcher to the right of the RCWS.
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I like the 30mm placement but i feel like it makes it harder to use something like MUSS.
Voltzz said:
I am skeptical of the utility of the launchers considering that they must displace a lot of ready rounds.
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Yeah if i understood it right the new EMBT turret for Lecerc Evolution has 3 LM (and can probaly also take 3 ATGM) which are mounted on top of the turret. A supposed 22 shots will fit with the 120mm Ascalon. Maybe the Launcher retracts infront of the magazin on this turret?
 
Shoes31 said:
If this is the same turret as the KF51 and the 130mm main gun, then yes any ATGM or other missile launcher will displace ready rounds.

This source claims # ready rounds is 20, 10 per side. If you use a missions / missile pod it takes the place of a magazine making the ready rounds equal to 10 which seems absurdly low to me.
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It is not the same turret. The KF51 is a Rheinmetall product and has a conventional manned turret, while the Leopard 2 ARC 3.0 is a KNDS product and uses the KMW RCT120 unmanned turret. There is not yet any information on the autoloader of the ARC, the only thing we know is that its supposed to have more ready round then the Leopard 2, so >15.
 
Voltzz said:
It is not the same turret. The KF51 is a Rheinmetall product and has a conventional manned turret, while the Leopard 2 ARC 3.0 is a KNDS product and uses the KMW RCT120 unmanned turret. There is not yet any information on the autoloader of the ARC, the only thing we know is that its supposed to have more ready round then the Leopard 2, so >15.
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And 3 rounds in 3 second which means it can load quite fast.
 
kqcke for you said:
I like the 30mm placement but i feel like it makes it harder to use something like MUSS.
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In a modern MBT-turret a lot of systems are competing for the highest position and for 360° uninterrupted line-of-sight. I think KNDS found a very elegant solution with the integration of the commanders thermal viewer, the RCWS and the smoke launcher into one block. You are correct that this makes the integration of an IR jammer more difficult, but it could still be possible with multiple distributed systems. Either four jammers colocated with the Trophy radars on the corners of the turret or 2 jammers integrated into the active-defense launchers as envisioned in the EADS MUSS Hard-Kill Concept.
 
Voltzz said:
In a modern MBT-turret a lot of systems are competing for the highest position and for 360° uninterrupted line-of-sight. I think KNDS found a very elegant solution with the integration of the commanders thermal viewer, the RCWS and the smoke launcher into one block.
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Yeah the smoke are a good idea but i believe 8 are not enough. And a smaller 7.62mm would also be nice in an RCWS but then again this is only a concept vehicle.
Voltzz said:
You are correct that this makes the integration of an IR jammer more difficult, but it could still be possible with multiple distributed systems. Either four jammers colocated with the Trophy radars on the corners of the turret or 2 jammers integrated into the active-defense launchers as envisioned in the EADS MUSS Hard-Kill Concept.
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I didnt know of any hard kill concept to MUSS. Could you share something about it?
 
kqcke for you said:
I didnt know of any hard kill concept to MUSS. Could you share something about it?
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Just these two pages from an EADS presentation on MUSS, depicting the integration of IR-jammers and tracking radars into a hard-kill launcher that looks like the Diehl AWiSS
 

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Voltzz said:
A third unmanned turret enters the ring for a MGCS precursor:
The Rheinmetall CUT Concept Uncrewed Turret
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Rheinmetall press release with some more information:
Option for new generation main battle tanks:
Rheinmetall presents the Concept Uncrewed Turret at Eurosatory 2024
Numerous operational experiences and future technologies are currently determining the further development of ground combat systems. Rheinmetall's aim is to develop superior and future-proof solutions. At Eurosatory 2024, Rheinmetall will be presenting the Concept Uncrewed Turret(CUT), the concept demonstrator of an uncrewed turret for a next-generation main battle tank. The premiere will take place on 17 June 2024 at 16:00 at the Rheinmetall stand E115/F115.
The main armament of the CUT is Rheinmetall's 130mm Future Gun System with 51 calibre lengths. Ammunition is fed via the bustle-mounted autoloader from two magazines in the rear of the turret. The ammunition capacity consists of 25 cartridges. A coaxial .50 heavy machine gun is also fitted. The commander's Main Sensor Slaved Armament (MSSA) remote controlled weapon station is equipped with a Rheinmetall RMG762 machine gun. This has three rotating barrels; if one is hot-fired, another barrel is brought into firing position and the machine gun is ready to fire again. Thanks to its high firepower, the RMG762 is also suitable for fighting small UAVs drones. The commander's MSSA remote controlled weapon station also has an integrated smoke grenade launcher.
Both the commander and gunner, who like the other crew members are housed in the chassis of the platform, have their own day and night vision optics with integrated laser rangefinders. The gunner uses the modern SEOSS 400 optics. This is also installed in the commander's MSSA. As the commander and gunner can observe independently of each other and both assign and engage targets. Hence, the crewless turret has both a hunter-killer and a killer-killer capability. The reconnaissance capability can be further enhanced with small on-board reconnaissance drones.
The electrically powered turret also houses the fire control system, parts of the C4I equipment and other parts of the sensor system, including a metrological sensor. The SAS (Situational Awareness System) ensures superior situational awareness. Active hard-kill protection systems such as Rheinmetall’s Active
Protection System (APS) or – as shown at Eurosatory – Iron Fist as well as soft-kill protection systems such as MUSS and the ROSY rapid obscurant system protect the crew and the platform from a wide range of enemy threats. The uncrewed turret is accessible from above via a maintenance hatch.
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Rheinmetall unveils hybrid tank and air defense system

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kqcke for you said:
Yeah the smoke are a good idea but i believe 8 are not enough.
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8 is enough to make a single smokescreen quickly. You'd have to reload afterwards.


kqcke for you said:
And a smaller 7.62mm would also be nice in an RCWS but then again this is only a concept vehicle.
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As I understand it, the 30mm is there for drone-busting primarily. Which means airbursting frag rounds that will do ugly things to a bunch of infantry. And you have a 7.62 or bigger coax MG as well. (I'd actually want to go to an MG338 for the coax, you have a stabilized mount with an amazing FCS able to get single-target hits at over 3km, let's go ahead and put an MG in there that can take more advantage of the FCS!)
 
Scott Kenny said:
8 is enough to make a single smokescreen quickly. You'd have to reload afterwards.
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Yes a single or maybe 2. Still to me not enough. You never know when you can reload it as is very dangerous in this vehicle.
Scott Kenny said:
As I understand it, the 30mm is there for drone-busting primarily. Which means airbursting frag rounds that will do ugly things to a bunch of infantry.
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Yeah but a limited magazine. How mutch shoot does it have? Maybe 100-200? Less than ideal as we have to leave the vehicle to reload.
Scott Kenny said:
And you have a 7.62 or bigger coax MG as well. (I'd actually want to go to an MG338 for the coax, you have a stabilized mount with an amazing FCS able to get single-target hits at over 3km, let's go ahead and put an MG in there that can take more advantage of the FCS!)
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kqcke for you said:
Yes a single or maybe 2. Still to me not enough. You never know when you can reload it as is very dangerous in this vehicle.
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I agree with that, but even the Leo2A7 only has 8x smoke launchers. I think the Abrams has 12x, and those smoke launchers look to make one good smoke screen on either side of the turret (2 total).

But personally I'd want to have at least 16x smoke grenades, if not 32. 2 racks of 16 if I can get them.


kqcke for you said:
Yeah but a limited magazine. How mutch shoot does it have? Maybe 100-200? Less than ideal as we have to leave the vehicle to reload.
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I found an article saying that it only takes 1-3 rounds to intercept a UAS. https://www.edrmagazine.eu/northrop-grumman-new-life-to-the-m230lf

So ~200 rounds in the hopper is ~70 dead drones before you need to reload.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I agree with that, but even the Leo2A7 only has 8x smoke launchers. I think the Abrams has 12x, and those smoke launchers look to make one good smoke screen on either side of the turret (2 total).
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I know
Scott Kenny said:
But personally I'd want to have at least 16x smoke grenades, if not 32. 2 racks of 16 if I can get them.
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Or atleast get extra 40mm smokes
Scott Kenny said:
I found an article saying that it only takes 1-3 rounds to intercept a UAS. https://www.edrmagazine.eu/northrop-grumman-new-life-to-the-m230lf

So ~200 rounds in the hopper is ~70 dead drones before you need to reload.
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Yeah but remember that you also have to use the same weapon against soldier in this concept.
 
The source of the video seems to be a KNDS press release that can be found here
It includes a longer version of the video with additional renders and some more information on the tank.
The most interesting detail to me is that the crew is seated in a triangle with the commander and gunner behind the driver.
 

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Voltzz said:
[...]
The most interesting detail to me is that the crew is seated in a triangle with the commander and gunner behind the driver.
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KNDS Germany hasn't made a final decision about the crew arrangement. The driver position might move more towards the front center of this tank concept.
Source (German):
www.hartpunkt.de

Video: Leopard 2 A-RC 3.0 von KNDS als Erprobungsfahrzeug für MGCS-Kanone denkbar

Der gestern von KNDS Deutschland auf der Messe Eurosatory in Paris vorgesellte Kampfpanzer Leopard 2 A-RC 3.0 bietet aufgrund seiner Parameter offenbar die Voraussetzungen dafür, um ihn als Erprobungsfahrzeug bei der Auswahl der Kanone für das Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) einzusetzen.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de
 
Scott Kenny said:
Good, I can't believe we're talking about increasing the number of tanks in Germany by a third... Adding two entire brigades worth of tanks!
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Yeah but what you need is something around 142 Leopard 2 Tanks for all 3 Brigades to be full meaning 44 tanks for the active unit and 9 as reverse (based on lithuanian brigade requierments). Also 1 tank for the Panzerschule to train the new soldier.
 
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