Leopard 2 Tank Developments

helmutkohl said:
on a related note, did Italy ever order Ariete C2s? was it even built?
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The AMV programme tested some of the C2 Ariete concepts but no actual C2 prototype was ever built.

However, Italy has just announced that the planned C1 upgrade will be going ahead. I assume this means to C2 Ariete Plus (aka C3 Ariete) standard. But I'm not sure if the upgrade refers to the previously announced 125 vehicles (pulling 75 or so hulls out of mothballs) or if Italy intended to just update the 50-odd C1 'runners'.
 
A useful quick graphic:

1690887228156
 
Foo Fighter said:
Shot traps, yep certainly have been a 'thing' for a long time. I usually get poo poo'd when I mention them but I still reckon they have relevance.
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Shot traps only apply to full caliber AP rounds. Rod penetrators do really weird things like stick their nose to a surface and dig in to go through at close to 90deg to the armor.
 
GTX said:
www.armyrecognition.com

Italy partners with Leonardo and KNDS to acquire 300 Leopard 2A8 tanks

On December 13, 2023, Italian defense company Leonardo and Franco-German defense consortium KNDS (KMW and Nexter Defence Systems) finalized an agreement fo
www.armyrecognition.com www.armyrecognition.com

bulgarianmilitary.com

Italian main battle tank Leopard 2A8 IT appears on the scene

December 13 marked a momentous occasion as Leonardo and KNDS [KMW+Nexter Defense System, a leading Franco-German team] established a strategic alliance.
bulgarianmilitary.com bulgarianmilitary.com
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Not sure that is a good spot for the Trophy radars...
 
So does this mean the Ariete MBT is a dead-end now? No likely further development?
 
Colonial-Marine said:
So does this mean the Ariete MBT is a dead-end now? No likely further development?
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There's an Ariete C2 mid-life update on trials to be applied to 125 out of 200 units starting in 2025.
www.italiandefencetechnologies.com

Italian Army Ariete C2 Main Battle Tank Receives EUR 850 Million Modernization Deal - Italian Defence Technologies

On August 2, the Italian Ministry of Defence inked a contract with CIO (Iveco…
www.italiandefencetechnologies.com www.italiandefencetechnologies.com
Any further developments than that are unlikely.
 
The Swedish Army plans to upgrade 44 strv 122C (Leopard 2 A5 SE) with new Rh-120 L55 A1 guns, new suspension, tracks, NV-sights and greater ability to fire programmable ammunition, then redesignated as strv 123A (in English translated as MBT 123A). KNDS (KMW + Nexter Defence Systems) has reported this version as the "Leopard 2 A7 SWE" or "MBT 123C".

The contract to KMW has been reported as circa 3,5 billion SEK (340 million USD), with deliveries starting in 2026.
 
64 million per tank? What's included in that program then? Total tech transfer? Variant development costs? 50 years of maintenance?
 
totoro said:
64 million per tank? What's included in that program then? Total tech transfer? Variant development costs? 50 years of maintenance?
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The contract seems to include “up to 140 other vehicles.” It remains to be seen if the vehicles in question are Leopard Il based recovery and bridge layer types, wheeled tank transports or someone altogether unexpected.
 
totoro said:
64 million per tank? What's included in that program then? Total tech transfer? Variant development costs? 50 years of maintenance?
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Its everything but for example to round it up this are a few points:
- 132 Tanks
- 140 Support Vehicles on Leopard Base
- APS is confirmed and it will also feature Italian modifications from Leonardo
- production in la spezia
- logistic stuff, munition and maintanance is also included but thanks to the modifications a high communality is there (both use 120mm munition as example so less new rounds may be needed)
 

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So basically it's not a contract to buy tanks from Germany but a contract for licenced production? With a good deal of stuff made in Italy (entire hull, turret etc?), with a few key subsytems arriving from other countries and assembeld in italy?
 
totoro said:
So basically it's not a contract to buy tanks from Germany but a contract for licenced production? With a good deal of stuff made in Italy (entire hull, turret etc?), with a few key subsytems arriving from other countries and assembeld in italy?
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It seems so. Now i didn't have time to look into the specifics but yeah. Lots of parts made in italy (more than for others do to the modifications).
 
At about the same time the Leopard 2A5 was developed an improved package of hull armor was developed for the Leopard 2. Germany didn't buy this for their Leopard 2A5s and A6s but it is on the Swedish Strv 122 and Spanish Leopard 2E. Those also have improved roof armor that the Germans and others didn't buy.

The Germans that would have been in a time when their budget was very limited after reunification and the threat of the USSR gone, but why have so many other buyers of Leopard 2A5 or A6 not opted for what seems like a very good thing to have? Does anyone know if this hull armor kit takes extensive work on the hull to fit?
 
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Colonial-Marine said:
At about the same time the Leopard 2A5 was developed an improved package of hull armor was developed for the Leopard 2. Germany didn't buy this for their Leopard 2A5s and A6s but it is on the Swedish Strv 122 and Spanish Leopard 2E. Those also have improved roof armor that the Germans and others didn't buy.

The Germans that would have been in a time when their budget was very limited after reunification and the threat of the USSR gone, but why have so many other buyers of Leopard 2A5 or A6 not opted for what seems like a very good thing to have. Does anyone know if this hull armor kit takes extensive work on the hull to fit?
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To my knowlege the only other country to buy new Leopard 2A5/6 besides Germany, the Netherlands Sweden and Spain (the first two also upgraded some of their 2A4s to 2A5 and later 2A6 standard, as far as I know) was Greece whose Leopard 2A6HEL has extra turret roof armour but no extra hull armour as far as I know. The Polish Leopard 2A5s were bought from Bundeswehr stocks, and the Finnish, Portuguese and Canadian 2A6s are ex-Dutch. So, as far as I know, the buyers of second hand 2A5s and 2A6s have not at least yet bothered to upgrade the armour of their machines.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
The Germans that would have been in a time when their budget was very limited after reunification and the threat of the USSR gone, but why have so many other buyers of Leopard 2A5 or A6 not opted for what seems like a very good thing to have.
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Cost cost cost.
Colonial-Marine said:
Does anyone know if this hull armor kit takes extensive work on the hull to fit?
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Probaly takes some. The question is can you mount it, can you carry the weight, does it block something or does it hinder something?
Often thanks have to be done on the suspension and or engine to mostly reduce the Impact they have.
 
www.edrmagazine.eu

Negotiations Abandoned Between KNDS and Leonardo - EDR Magazine

Amsterdam, 11 June 2024 – KNDS N. V., one of the leading European manufacturers of military land systems based in
www.edrmagazine.eu www.edrmagazine.eu

it appears Leonardo and KNDS are at an impasse, it is understandable because Leonardo wants to build more parts for Leo 2A8IT specifically in italy and i assume its a temporary arrangement untill the government or the companies come to a compromise the issue is not the two companies it's the politics behind it, i'll post more if i find more info
 
ItalianAFDFail said:
www.edrmagazine.eu

Negotiations Abandoned Between KNDS and Leonardo - EDR Magazine

Amsterdam, 11 June 2024 – KNDS N. V., one of the leading European manufacturers of military land systems based in
www.edrmagazine.eu www.edrmagazine.eu

it appears Leonardo and KNDS are at an impasse, it is understandable because Leonardo wants to build more parts for Leo 2A8IT specifically in italy and i assume its a temporary arrangement untill the government or the companies come to a compromise the issue is not the two companies it's the politics behind it, i'll post more if i find more info
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I mean If norway can produce 37 of there 54 Leopard 2 then italy would have a 200% chance
 
Fresh unmanned turret Leopard 2 A-RC 3.0 concept/prototype from KNDS, sorry for image spam.
 

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