Leduc 010, 021, 022

I believe that many of the posts in this topic ought to be moved and merged with the following topic:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7503.0
 
Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyCPYsUGRnM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McOJbmC6-04
 

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Hi! Walk around of 010 and 022,
http://igor113.livejournal.com/215129.html
 

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Hi,

I don't know if that was only hypothetical designs or real Projects to Leduc ?.

 

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Hi! Leduc 022 interceptor prototype and 050 bomber projects.
 

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Thanks! I wanted to say that interceptor prototype version is 022.
022 length is 18.2m.
040 length is 15m.
 
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The commentary of the video is quite Vieille France completly white washing all the failures and huge sums divested by the Frenchs in that project that had early on no raison d'être.


Notice that I was an early reader of the related Docavia (the best source in french language that I am aware of).
 
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TomcatViP said:
The commentary of the video is quite Vieille France completly white washing all the failures and huge sums divested by the Frenchs in that project that had early on no raison d'être.
But let's be honest it gave us 40 years lead in understandingwhat would be EU subsidized aerospace R&D.

Notice that I was an early reader of the related Docavia (the best source in french language that I am aware of).
Click to expand...

Are you serious ? Back in 1949 it made sense... nobody really knew which engine would prevail: ramjet or turbojet or rocket. All other major aerospace powers explored similar alternatives. The 50's are a litany of audacious, awesome flying machines that never got a chance, not because they were bad, but because they were overtaken by the lightning pace of tech development.

Leduc started strongly with the 010 and 021 but at the 022 level he was overtaken by the Nord Griffon, for sure. But he was never a whacky inventor wasting money for nothing - a fraud.

Incidentally, everything but the Mirage III died by 1958 (Trident, Leduc, Griffon, Durandal, Vautour, SMB-2, Etendard IV non-naval variant)

Please save us the blatant cynicism at times... that's tiring, really. Not exactly funny.
 
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From TU 189.
 

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Georges said:
Trident too
Click to expand...

And many more. In 1958 France had its own Sandys / Diefenbaker big cancellation moment.
Long story short
a) De Gaulle returned to power
b) Made the Force de Frappe nuclear deterrent an absolute priority against conventional weapons
c) Mirage IV first, then solid-fuel ballistic missiles: something akin to Polaris or Minuteman
d) Mirage III becomes a multirole type, 473 procured over the next 15 years.

End result: Mirage III was used to kill a very large number of advanced aircraft.

-The last SMB-2s: cancelled (production capped to 180)
-The last Vautours: cancelled (production capped to 140, zero upgrade for the fleet over the next two decades)
-SO-4060 heavy multirole fighter: cancelled
-Trident: cancelled
-Griffon II developments: cancelled
-Leduc 022: cancelled
-Etendard IV low and medium altitude fighter (AdA - not Aéronavale, not NATO): cancelled.
-Any Mirage IV not a nuclear bomber: cancelled (related to SO-4060)

-SMB-2 and Etendard IV were to be low altitude, transonic day fighters.
-Vautour was subsonic light bomber
-Mirage IV and SO-4060 were supersonic, multirole heavy fighters / light bombers.
-Trident, Griffon, Leduc were high altitude high speed interceptors above 60 000 ft and Mach 2

Mirage III swept all this, taking all their roles.
 
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As for the peculiar case of the Leduc 022: could never get supersonic, as the aerodynamics were all wrong (although they were spectacular !).

Just compare it with Griffon II. One was area-ruled, sleek delta. The other looked like a big, cylindrical syringe.

Leduc started as early as 1939 and restarted in 1946. Nord Aviation with the Griffon I started in the first half of the 1950's and failed; but then the Griffon II was a tremendous success. The turboramjet accelerated the plane like crazy, and only duralumin thermal limits capped top speed to Mach 2.19.

Nord Aviation was a public company with plenty different aircraft programs and in production, so massive amounts of money.

When Leduc was more akin to a craftsman with limited resources- even if a visionary one.

It is a rather cruel story.
 
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I see that most of the drawings published here, particularly the ones from Justo Miranda, come from my book about Leduc (Docavia) but never referenced. :(
 

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As a reminder, in the light of current events (though those posts are about 14 years old, but the
book still was available, when they were posted ):

Please, ALWAYS state your sources, and if you want to post more stuff from publications,

please get permission from the author or publisher !
 
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PhR said:
I see that most of the drawings published here, particularly the ones from Justo Miranda, come from my book about Leduc (Docavia) but never referenced. :(
Click to expand...
and much congratulations for your wonderful books
 

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PhR said:
For information, the true origin of this drawing is again my book. I personnally scanned the original plans from Leduc familly's blue prints.

This book is still available at a reduced price in the publisher's store: https://boutiquelariviere.fr/site/l...e__lariv.1238.44513__/fr/kiosque/produit.html
Click to expand...
Hi, I'm very happy to have your Leduc and your Gerfaut/Griffon books in my library. Two great books. From my point of view, an excellent "definitive" companion volume should be "Les Sud-Est Grognard" by same author, published by TMA or Lela Presse for instance...
 
FWIW, unless there's something disproportionate about such BIG ramjets' behaviour, several of these Leduc designs falsify repeated claims that you must reach 'supersonic' to accelerate using a ramjet...

Yes, yes, they are much less efficient 'low and slow', but...
 
TomcatViP said:
full
Click to expand...
Very nice photo, but I don't think this is a P-51 with ramjets. These huge appendixes are just radiators. As you can see, the big "Meredith effect" heater exchange has been removed from the belly of this Mustang.

I attach a view of a P-51 with Marquardt ramjets. You can compare.
 

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Thank you both @PhR @flateric .
It escaped me. I was looking for Marquardt ramjet P-51 when this beauty jumped to my eyes. I knew about Jackie Cochran modification (as mentioned somewhere anteriorly in one P-51 thread). At least, I should have known better but got confused and couldn´t resist anyway :p

In complement to your excellent links, here is a page dedicated to Jackie (Beguine is treated mid page):


And to amend my mistake, here is another illustration of the definitively non-supersonic Ramjet Mustang (twin Marquardt engines that might have been a blast to fly with asymmetric thrust at the wing tips (!).

P-51-ramjet.jpg

P-51D, 44-63528. A Marquardt XRJ-30-MA

Appropriate tune to read the last few posts

Note that when Beguine was converted re-using the Marquardt pods (allegedly), it´s possible that they didn´t take into account the added extra mass and inertia that came with the installation of a radiator relatively to the emptiness of a ramjets (that are essentially a hollow tube with a flame holder and a spray bar). I am willing to think that the sudden roll divergence originated from some wing warping effects instead of the explanation given in link pointing to disturbed airflow in the absence of a filet. IMOHO, the fact that this manifested mostly with abrupt roll command is a clear enough sign. It´s even probable that the Marquardt airframe was roll restricted and that information was lost to the Beguine team.
 
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