KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

Hello everyone.

I plan to post a series of pictures of German destroyers and rangefinders. These pictures are screenshots and photographs of line drawings from many sources (Z-Vor, Marine-Archiv, etc) (not copies of 'real' photos taken of the destroyers - yet). There are several dozen images in total and were taken at the request of Tzoli. I figured since I did all that work, it might be good to further distribute. I'm not sure who it'll really benefit or why it would benefit them even if it did, but I'm sure someone will find them interesting. They are mostly Type 1934-1936B destroyers, FuMO 24/25 & FuMO 63 Hohentweil-K and Flakleitgerat M42 drawings with some Flottentorpedoboote sprinkled in there.

Of slightly more interest, I am sure, is that I also intend to upload plans of various German destroyers (1934A and 1936 mostly, but these two classes are the most representative anyway).

This will not happen for at least a week, but the intention is there.
As usual, I will post again when everything has been good and uploaded - links included.
Thank you for your time.
 
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Today I learned that Scharnhorst's overall machinery plant is rather small when compared to Derfflinger's, and that if you reduced the amount of E-Werke rooms you could fit Graf Zeppelin's machinery in the space.
 
Any idea how to access Krupp Archive files?, i have hard time to navigate the site.
 
Bummer, looks like there are none digitalize free files or unless am missing something.
 
Can you help me to understand the aft section of Europa. Do you have any blueprints only of this part? I don´t know if it is only like narrow bridge or are they big platforms.
 

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lukasgrul said:
Do you have this blueprint of Europa in one photo or without the right pillow? I want to make model of Europa and I need to print the blueprint.
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The top one is an extension of the 'A' deck that forms the roof above the aircraft hangar. The second looks like the beginnings of a B deck - but that would run through the hangar bay, and it isn't included in the line drawings depicting the final plan. Instead, the extension of the A deck outside the rear of the hangar bay forms the covering for a small boat - possibly 2, side-by-side.
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Thank you, but on picture I send those extensions of deck are covering whole aft or are they only gallery?
 
I am going to have to assume they cover the whole deck if they are an extension of the A deck, which also likely covers the entire width. I cannot say with any certainty, but it would only make sense.

Also note that the flight deck supports do not come all the way down, meaning it must be pretty wide overall.
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Is there any reason why some German Carrier designs had the superstructure and funnel on the Port side and not the starboard side? I haven't really seen a vivid reason to this.
 
Likely the same reason as on Hiryu and Soryu and Akagi and Kaga to be used side by side with aircraft recovery from opposite rotations.
 
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MrMemerMan said:
Is there any reason why some German Carrier designs had the superstructure and funnel on the Port side and not the starboard side? I haven't really seen a vivid reason to this.
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Influenced from Japanese carriers designs, there's one booklet on invenio in "naval attaché" sections (Japan) mentioned "commissioned study on Japanese carriers", they pointed out what German learned from Akagi, Soryou, Hiryou and Ryujou, i haven't bother to translated nor read far enough yet.
 
Seawarpeace is a very good place to look into German warships. However just be careful on what you read on there. Some of the information is a bitch sketchy or just straight up outdated.
 
lukasgrul said:
Do you have blueprint of Europa´s armor scheme?
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Europa doesn't have any armor planned for conversion, she does retain original ocean liner multiple watertight compartments and additional bulges added to improve ship stability, there's one deck plan of her and sisters on google (also include machinery and engine hull).
 
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Do you think Europa and Graf zeppelin would make huge difference in war if they would finish/convert them?
 
lukasgrul said:
Do you think Europa and Graf zeppelin would make huge difference in war if they would finish/convert them?
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It's super difficult to say. I want to say yes, at least for Graf Zeppelin. GZ was designed as a breakthrough ship from the outset, having armor on-par or greater than heavy cruisers with the armament of a light cruiser per side. Despite what those with lesser knowledge (or intelligence) might say about hangar capacity, the deck space of her hangars is at least comparable to other large fleet carriers - though the aviation fuel capacity (not known for her 1942 configuration) and plane types used are certainly something worthy of scrutiny. She is also incredibly fast. Speed and power are not something the Kriegsmarine's ships and steam plants are known for lacking, but the expected range has always been wildly overestimated. This was partially offset by the inclusion of fuel in the bulges added in 1942.
All these factors combine to make her quite the threat on her own, yet still very useful in conjunction with other raiders in many respects. She would be an asset to any KM force attempting to break into the Atlantic, and could very well be a sole survivor even in the event the force is destroyed. One might believe she'd be simply countered by the introduction of more carriers into the Atlantic - but that's exactly the point, isn't it?
As for Europa...well, she's not exactly what you'd call ripe for Atlantic deployment. She's much more dependent on others for protection, and although she's pretty fast at her top speed (capable of keeping up at most fleet speeds), she would not escape either CLs or CAs, both of which pose a serious risk. I would worry that in the event that the raiding force needs to retreat from a larger Allied force, all Europa would become is the next Blucher. A very nice target for heavy British guns.
It's hard to find a place for Europa within the KMs stratagems. She was such an ersatz idea, brought about by desperation more than anything. I feel as though that she would be quite the waste of time and resources comparative to a dedicated carrier with a tonnage as low as 15,000.
 
_Sarcasticat_ said:
lukasgrul said:
Do you think Europa and Graf zeppelin would make huge difference in war if they would finish/convert them?
Click to expand...
It's super difficult to say. I want to say yes, at least for Graf Zeppelin. GZ was designed as a breakthrough ship from the outset, having armor on-par or greater than heavy cruisers with the armament of a light cruiser per side. Despite what those with lesser knowledge (or intelligence) might say about hangar capacity, the deck space of her hangars is at least comparable to other large fleet carriers - though the aviation fuel capacity (not known for her 1942 configuration) and plane types used are certainly something worthy of scrutiny. She is also incredibly fast. Speed and power are not something the Kriegsmarine's ships and steam plants are known for lacking, but the expected range has always been wildly overestimated. This was partially offset by the inclusion of fuel in the bulges added in 1942.
All these factors combine to make her quite the threat on her own, yet still very useful in conjunction with other raiders in many respects. She would be an asset to any KM force attempting to break into the Atlantic, and could very well be a sole survivor even in the event the force is destroyed. One might believe she'd be simply countered by the introduction of more carriers into the Atlantic - but that's exactly the point, isn't it?
As for Europa...well, she's not exactly what you'd call ripe for Atlantic deployment. She's much more dependent on others for protection, and although she's pretty fast at her top speed (capable of keeping up at most fleet speeds), she would not escape either CLs or CAs, both of which pose a serious risk. I would worry that in the event that the raiding force needs to retreat from a larger Allied force, all Europa would become is the next Blucher. A very nice target for heavy British guns.
It's hard to find a place for Europa within the KMs stratagems. She was such an ersatz idea, brought about by desperation more than anything. I feel as though that she would be quite the waste of time and resources comparative to a dedicated carrier with a tonnage as low as 15,000.
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Had Graf Zeppelin and her sister ship or just Graf Zeppelin and any converted carrier been actually used in the war, they probably would have most likely been used as floating flat tops in Norway. That's also another possibility.
 
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A related discussion on Graf Zeppelin which I was involved in on another forum.
The consensus seems to be that the pause in armament production following the Blitzkrieg of 1940 crippled any hopes for Graf Zeppelin. The ship wasn't ready and her aircraft weren't in production either and her air group had been used to fill in losses during the Battle of France and Battle of Britain.
There is no discernible push from the RLM post 1941 for new carrier-based aircraft - yes there were some projects like the Me 155 etc. but no drive to see them get to prototype stage let alone production. Like most parts of Nazi Germany the RLM and OKM were following different trajectories and timings when it came to aircraft and ship projects, even with Graf Zeppelin the timings didn't really align.

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All the World's Battlecruisers-Replace Bismarck with Graf Zeppelin

Exercise Rhine, a subject that has been covered probably too much, however, something I’m not familiar with in the realm of “what-if”, replace
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Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
 
alexi said:
lukasgrul said:
Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
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They're rare given how obscure Europa is (or lack of interests from modelers), this is one i know so far.
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I don´t understand why this isn´t more popular project. When H-44 is very popular even when it isn´t realistic at all, the europa would be the biggest ship in battle of atlantic and that sounds cool. I hope anybody would make it.
 
lukasgrul said:
alexi said:
lukasgrul said:
Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
Click to expand...
They're rare given how obscure Europa is (or lack of interests from modelers), this is one i know so far.
Click to expand...
I don´t understand why this isn´t more popular project. When H-44 is very popular even when it isn´t realistic at all, the europa would be the biggest ship in battle of atlantic and that sounds cool. I hope anybody would make it.
Click to expand...
Many German Carrier designs weren't serious considered. Also the Luftwaffe wasn't interested in making Navalized planes so there is also that.
 
lukasgrul said:
alexi said:
lukasgrul said:
Do you know if there are any other 3D models or renders of Europa than those that are in wows forum about almost german Cv´s?
Click to expand...
They're rare given how obscure Europa is (or lack of interests from modelers), this is one i know so far.
Click to expand...
I don´t understand why this isn´t more popular project. When H-44 is very popular even when it isn´t realistic at all, the europa would be the biggest ship in battle of atlantic and that sounds cool. I hope anybody would make it.
Click to expand...
I think some of the same reasons that make Aquila not as popular as, say, the Littorio class apply here.
I still think Europa is interesting, even if it has to compete with the aura that seems to magically come with the H-class designs.
Perhaps she might have been even more interesting if her rebuild was as comprehensive as Aquila's.
 
Did germans plan any other aircraft carriers than that you have in folder on first page?
 
There were some:

Small Aircraft Carrier
Seydlitz
Jade
De Grasse
21000t Design
Commerce Warfare Aircraft Carrier
Small Aircarft Carrier Project A
Small Aircarft Carrier Project B
Ausonia
Graf Zeppelin
Europa
Flugzeugträger A I
Flugdeckkreuzer E IV
Flugdeckkreuzer E V
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A II
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IIa
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A III
Gross Flugzeugkreuzer A IV
 

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