Kamov Ka-50 / Ka-52 Hokum Family Thread

[Forest Green]

A new slant on friendly fire incidents:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1814224876070228253

View: https://x.com/Archer83Able/status/1814224876070228253

Drone warfare in Ukraine prompts fresh thinking in helicopter tactics

The shift is animated in large part by proliferating ground-based air defenses that make manned flight over the battlefield almost impossible.

www.defensenews.com

The vulnerability of combat helicopters has translated into a high number of losses on the Russian side. In February, a report published by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies found that the Russian Aerospace Forces had lost 40% of their pre-war Ka-52 Hokum-B attack helicopter fleet.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The vulnerability of combat helicopters has translated into a high number of losses on the Russian side. In February, a report published by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies found that the Russian Aerospace Forces had lost 40% of their pre-war Ka-52 Hokum-B attack helicopter fleet.

While some of the Russian helicopter losses have been pretty absurd, I'm not sure projected Apache losses over Fulda were all that much lower...

 

[yasotay]

Those of us who were guarding the Fulda Gap did not expect to make it to day 3.

Neither side in the ongoing conflict in Europe have transitioned to fighting attack helicopters at night. Most of the western militaries have transitioned to conducting offensive attack helicopter operations at night. This significantly reduces the effectiveness of the MANPAD systems which are almost all Mark 1 eyeball directed, line of sight systems. It is not a panacea solution, but the risk is significantly less.

Interestingly as you can see here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/mil-mi-28-versions.3398/post-695792
Russian Army Aviation is using tactics very common in the West. Manned Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) with precision long range weapons. Ironically this is somewhat of a return to the original concept for attack helicopters in NATO for the general defense during the Cold War. Operating behind the ground frontage, sniping critical targets such as command and control and mobile air defense systems. This is also consistent with how the Israelis have used their Apache's with Spike NLOS. Even in the Information Age with a fully transparent battlefield, being able to maneuver precision fires at ~230 kmh behind your forward lines to hit targets tens of kilometers on the other side is a powerful capability. Other than very specialized missions done by one or two rotorcraft, with meticulous planning and support, crossing into enemy territory, even in the dead of night, will be an expensive endeavor.

The next real argument for Army Aviation around the world is; do you need a very specialized attack helicopter to do this or can you outfit an appropriate lift helicopter for the mission(s)? UH-60, NH-90, LYNX, Mi-8/17/171 all have the capacity to be outfitted for long-range attack. Since the mission is conducted from a relative sanctuary you don't need the suppression weapons (guns).

 

[Scott Kenny]

Those of us who were guarding the Fulda Gap did not expect to make it to day 3.

Oof, that's actually worse than I thought it was going to be.

When we meet up and start swapping tall tales, first adult beverage is on me!

The next real argument for Army Aviation around the world is; do you need a very specialized attack helicopter to do this or can you outfit an appropriate lift helicopter for the mission(s)? UH-60, NH-90, LYNX, Mi-8/17/171 all have the capacity to be outfitted for long-range attack. Since the mission is conducted from a relative sanctuary you don't need the suppression weapons (guns).

I would not want to give up the guns. There will almost certainly be times when you need to support the troops and the enemy is within 50m so no other weapons are advised due to danger close ranges.

Those times where it may happen are likely to not be in near-peer conflict, but I would still innately arm the helos for COIN and permissive skies. And then make it so that you can swap out most of the gun ammo load for more fuel or whatever and load long range stuff in case of near-peer conflicts.

 

[yasotay]

Oof, that's actually worse than I thought it was going to be.

When we meet up and start swapping tall tales, first adult beverage is on me!



I would not want to give up the guns. There will almost certainly be times when you need to support the troops and the enemy is within 50m so no other weapons are advised due to danger close ranges.

Those times where it may happen are likely to not be in near-peer conflict, but I would still innately arm the helos for COIN and permissive skies. And then make it so that you can swap out most of the gun ammo load for more fuel or whatever and load long range stuff in case of near-peer conflicts.

I agree. You can buy the beverages.

 

[Ainen]

I'd disagree on peer conflict.
Peer conflict (especially not as localized as second part of Ukraine) can be larger, and peers, strong as they are, aren't strong everywhere - especially in Pacific.
It's one thing if you're doing cas, but armed escort by default should be able to react to pop up threats.

Also, while guns aren't much use in positional warfare (and their [effective] range should be increased though caliber and guidance), during the first part of the conflict they were quite vital.

Positional warfare represents failure of both sides to conclude conflict decisively. It's unwise to assume failure without making it happen (as in 1914), Poles and French shown it too well in early WW2.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Also, while guns aren't much use in positional warfare (and their [effective] range should be increased though caliber and guidance), during the first part of the conflict they were quite vital.

Eh, if you need more range just use guided 70mm rockets.

Guns need accuracy over range and I don't think any helicopter can handle recoil over 30x113mm in a flex mount. 30x173mm or maybe 35x228mm in a fixed mount, and either one will push a hovering aircraft around.

 

[Ainen]

Eh, if you need more range just use guided 70mm rockets.

Guns need accuracy over range and I don't think any helicopter can handle recoil over 30x113mm in a flex mount. 30x173mm or maybe 35x228mm in a fixed mount, and either one will push a hovering aircraft around.

If you can do both with one mount, why not? Larger ammo capacity in a smaller volume as a bonus.
Lofted moderate-speed ifv 50mm (which is large enough to be guided) IMHO will do the trick with manageable recoil.

 

[Scott Kenny]

If you can do both with one mount, why not? Larger ammo capacity in a smaller volume as a bonus.
Lofted moderate-speed ifv 50mm (which is large enough to be guided) IMHO will do the trick with manageable recoil.

Current US Army IFV 50mm is 50x228mm, the 35mm NATO blown out to 50mm bore. And that's above what I believe is helicopter recoil tolerance in a turret for sure, and likely above fixed-mount recoil tolerance.

Though if there is a gun bigger than 30x113mm mounted on a helicopter, I'm sure someone on this forum will tell me.

 

[Ainen]

Though if there is a gun bigger than 30x113mm mounted on a helicopter, I'm sure someone on this forum will tell me.

This thread is about helicopter with 30x165 2a42, and it wasn't the largest. ;-)

I personally doubt there is any specific helicopter restriction any different from fixed-wing aircraft of a similar size.

Which means, guns of any sane caliber can be mounted in principle, it's more of a matter of common sense.

 

[Forest Green]

This thread is about helicopter with 30x165 2a42, and it wasn't the largest. ;-)

In the Vietnam Era there was one with L60s IIRC.

 

[yasotay]

To keep from getting the thread too far off the rails, I personally agree with the continued need for dedicated armored helicopters with a wide ordinance capability.