Kamov Ka-50 / Ka-52 Hokum Family Thread

The video isn't very clear, looks like a truck to me.
 
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This is not just an issue for Ukraine but points out a weakness in US & western militaries in general in this area of SHORAD (short range air defense).

www.thedrive.com

Ukraine's Armor Appears To Have A Russian Attack Helicopter Problem

Russian Ka-52 attack helicopters' presence at the front highlights the need for highly mobile and survivable short-range air defenses.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
 
Flyaway said:
This is not just an issue for Ukraine but points out a weakness in US & western militaries in general in this area of SHORAD (short range air defense).

www.thedrive.com

Ukraine's Armor Appears To Have A Russian Attack Helicopter Problem

Russian Ka-52 attack helicopters' presence at the front highlights the need for highly mobile and survivable short-range air defenses.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
..will repeat what was expressed after Javelin reports started at the start of the war.. APS is not only more than necessary but the TARDEC "revenge shot" concept capability ie something w/ some range and firepower against the offending launch vehicle, even aircraft, similar to the proposed SLID missile are necessary.

Avenger + M-SHORAD are a step, but in widely dispersed battlefields small AFV/IFV formations and or individual lead vehicles will need organic CRAM and/or even 'revenge shot' capability.
 
Ka-52 with damaged tail somewhere near Ukraine:

View: https://youtu.be/gn-5Te45tpQ


t.me

Fighterbomber

За время контрнаступа хохлы сбили ноль (нуль, зерро) летабл доблестных ВКС. Но кой-че конечно случалось. Не по вине хохлов. А потому что жизнь такая. Так, надысь, при сбросе ПТБ*, они чёт взяли и снесли нахер киль вертолету. Ну шо делать, полетел себе дальше за новым килем. Уже приделывают...
t.me t.me
 

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Flyaway said:
This is not just an issue for Ukraine but points out a weakness in US & western militaries in general in this area of SHORAD (short range air defense).

www.thedrive.com

Ukraine's Armor Appears To Have A Russian Attack Helicopter Problem

Russian Ka-52 attack helicopters' presence at the front highlights the need for highly mobile and survivable short-range air defenses.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
That's the caase of most milittaries. Russia included, though less prominent. They have Tor as SHORAD, but it's quite expensive platform.
2S6 is outdated, and Patsir-S is stationary AD unit.
jsport said:
Avenger + M-SHORAD are a step, but in widely dispersed battlefields small AFV/IFV formations and or individual lead vehicles will need organic CRAM and/or even 'revenge shot' capability.
Click to expand...
It's not enough. Even Vikhr-M at low-alt outranges their missiles, to say nothing of latest ATGMs like Spike/Brimstone (even if their range is degraded when launching from helicopter/UAV.
IMO, Russia grasped the first half of effective battlefield SHORAD with Pantsir. It's a smart chassis with fast and cheap dumb missile with command guidance. The other half would be place Pantsir on tracks, slap APS on it and add second vehicle with solid-state laser to counter FPV drones.
 
Anduriel said:
That's the caase of most milittaries. Russia included, though less prominent.
Click to expand...
This statement is so...wrong, and it requires such a long post to explain, that probably we'll need someone like Battleorder to paint the full picture.
Long story short: Russian army air defense (with it's half-page long English wiki entry) alone, without its larger VKS counterpart (or navy land units), is larger than any non-Russian/Chinese AD arm anywhere in the world.

Anduriel said:
IMO, Russia grasped the first half of effective battlefield SHORAD with Pantsir. It's a smart chassis with fast and cheap dumb missile with command guidance. The other half would be place Pantsir on tracks, slap APS on it and add second vehicle with solid-state laser to counter FPV drones.
Click to expand...
...but drones are indeed a huge problem.
Even Russian AD, which begins at regimental level, is hopelessly outnumbered compared to the threat.

US approach, which currently expects to have a small battery of ad-hoc vehicles at a divisional(!) level, later in 2020s, in Ukrainian conditions is ... incredibly optimistic.
 
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Anduriel said:
It's not enough. Even Vikhr-M at low-alt outranges their missiles, to say nothing of latest ATGMs like Spike/Brimstone (even if their range is degraded when launching from helicopter/UAV.
IMO, Russia grasped the first half of effective battlefield SHORAD with Pantsir. It's a smart chassis with fast and cheap dumb missile with command guidance. The other half would be place Pantsir on tracks, slap APS on it and add second vehicle with solid-state laser to counter FPV drones.
Click to expand...
Brimstone would probably work against a helicopter IMO.
 
Orionblamblam said:
This was apparently a self-inflicted injury... when it dropped external fuel tanks, they blew back and broke the tail. That would seem to be a bit of a design flaw. Perhaps not enough wind tunnel testing.
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Regardless, Apache, Cobra, Blackhawk, Z-10, Tiger... ANY standard helicopter with the lose of the vertical stabilizer and tail rotor would not still be in the air, let alone still in controlled flight. As someone who has been around helicopters for a while, that is impressive.
 
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yasotay said:
Orionblamblam said:
This was apparently a self-inflicted injury... when it dropped external fuel tanks, they blew back and broke the tail. That would seem to be a bit of a design flaw. Perhaps not enough wind tunnel testing.
Click to expand...
Regardless, Apache, Cobra, Blackhawk, Z-10, Tiger... ANY standard helicopter with the lose of the vertical stabilizer and tail rotor would not still be in the air, let alone still in controlled flight. As someone who has been around helicopters for a while, that is impressive.
Click to expand...
Advantage of the coax rotors.
 
Ainen said:

US approach, which currently expects to have a small battery of ad-hoc vehicles at a divisional(!) level, later in 2020s, in Ukrainian conditions is ... incredibly optimistic.
Click to expand...

A lesson from Ukraine - all SHORAD and AD budgets are far far far too small.

8+km ATGMs do pose a very tough engagement problem. At that range, you'd need a Pantsir or ADATs sized missile, mounted on an armored launcher. Or a counter-air low altitude aircraft perhaps.
 
Was damaged by an atgm from the sound of things now.
 
The question was asked concerning Ka52 availability, so here’s a photo which goes some way to answering;- it is said to show the main Ka 52 servicing base in the Russian western district,. On the ramp area on the left hand side can be seen above 30 stripped out redundant airframes. I understand there’s about 20-30 nominally complete aircraft also in the photo. With Orxy listing 35 photographic confirmed losses there’s a very high percentage of the fleet in these two sources alone.
 

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Zoo Tycoon said:
Orxy перечисляет 35 подтвержденных
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Орикс это помойка. И, наконец, он закроется. По фото там планеры от Ми-24 если вы по форме не заметили
(Oryx is a dump. And it will finally close. From the photo there are Mi-24 in case you haven't noticed from the shape)
 
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Zoo Tycoon said:
The question was asked concerning Ka52 availability, so here’s a photo which goes some way to answering;- it is said to show the main Ka 52 servicing base in the Russian western district,. On the ramp area on the left hand side can be seen above 30 stripped out redundant airframes.
Click to expand...
It is said by whom? Where? What those trash Hinds have to do with Hokums availability?
 
Orionblamblam said:
This was apparently a self-inflicted injury... when it dropped external fuel tanks, they blew back and broke the tail. That would seem to be a bit of a design flaw. Perhaps not enough wind tunnel testing.
Click to expand...
Nonsense from start to finish. Direct participants of these event claim that this is combat damage.
 
Anduriel said:
Flyaway said:
This is not just an issue for Ukraine but points out a weakness in US & western militaries in general in this area of SHORAD (short range air defense).

www.thedrive.com

Ukraine's Armor Appears To Have A Russian Attack Helicopter Problem

Russian Ka-52 attack helicopters' presence at the front highlights the need for highly mobile and survivable short-range air defenses.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
That's the caase of most milittaries. Russia included, though less prominent. They have Tor as SHORAD, but it's quite expensive platform.
2S6 is outdated, and Patsir-S is stationary AD unit.
jsport said:
Avenger + M-SHORAD are a step, but in widely dispersed battlefields small AFV/IFV formations and or individual lead vehicles will need organic CRAM and/or even 'revenge shot' capability.
Click to expand...
It's not enough. Even Vikhr-M at low-alt outranges their missiles, to say nothing of latest ATGMs like Spike/Brimstone (even if their range is degraded when launching from helicopter/UAV.
IMO, Russia grasped the first half of effective battlefield SHORAD with Pantsir. It's a smart chassis with fast and cheap dumb missile with command guidance. The other half would be place Pantsir on tracks, slap APS on it and add second vehicle with solid-state laser to counter FPV drones.
Click to expand...
"Revenge Shot" concepts w/some range may need to approach the capability of traditional supporting M-Shorad missions as nearly every vehicle will need a long range APS option to augment the close APS systems against even helicopters and mortar teams. 1687354548116.png 1687354470452.png
 
Now what Ka-52 needs is perhaps an active radar homing missile in the league of Brimestone.
 
jsport said:
Flyaway said:
This is not just an issue for Ukraine but points out a weakness in US & western militaries in general in this area of SHORAD (short range air defense).

www.thedrive.com

Ukraine's Armor Appears To Have A Russian Attack Helicopter Problem

Russian Ka-52 attack helicopters' presence at the front highlights the need for highly mobile and survivable short-range air defenses.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
..will repeat what was expressed after Javelin reports started at the start of the war.. APS is not only more than necessary but the TARDEC "revenge shot" concept capability ie something w/ some range and firepower against the offending launch vehicle, even aircraft, similar to the proposed SLID missile are necessary.

Avenger + M-SHORAD are a step, but in widely dispersed battlefields small AFV/IFV formations and or individual lead vehicles will need organic CRAM and/or even 'revenge shot' capability.
Click to expand...

at the 23:25 mark begins why a IFV organic 'revenge shot' capability addition to an APS systems is a good idea.
 
DrRansom said:
Ainen said:

US approach, which currently expects to have a small battery of ad-hoc vehicles at a divisional(!) level, later in 2020s, in Ukrainian conditions is ... incredibly optimistic.
Click to expand...

A lesson from Ukraine - all SHORAD and AD budgets are far far far too small.

8+km ATGMs do pose a very tough engagement problem. At that range, you'd need a Pantsir or ADATs sized missile, mounted on an armored launcher. Or a counter-air low altitude aircraft perhaps.
Click to expand...

Well, it is worse than that - if you want to keep your air-defence somewhat protected from direct fires and easy spotting (for artillery) - you need to keep it more than two kilometres behind the vehicles it is protecting. So, it is more like at least 12-15 km to counter an 8 km missile.

Of course, that is assuming the helicopters are able to fire at maximum range. If they don't spot the vehicles immediately a Gepard with a ~3-4km effective range could be very lethal to a helicopter, in spite of it having 8km long 'teeth' under its wings.
 
A demonstration that attack helicopters, used with correct tactics (in this case superior stand off), remain viable. While UAV will supplement them and in some cases assume some of the more dangerous missions, manned platforms are not susceptible to weather (environmental conditions) electronic warfare and other means like unmanned. While loosing thousands of UAS a month remains less expensive than one attack helicopter, it does you no good if they are not as effective as a manned platform.
 
yasotay said:
A demonstration that attack helicopters, used with correct tactics (in this case superior stand off), remain viable. While UAV will supplement them and in some cases assume some of the more dangerous missions, manned platforms are not susceptible to weather (environmental conditions) electronic warfare and other means like unmanned. While loosing thousands of UAS a month remains less expensive than one attack helicopter, it does you no good if they are not as effective as a manned platform.
Click to expand...
It's quite right.
 
jsport said:
"Revenge Shot" concepts w/some range may need to approach the capability of traditional supporting M-Shorad missions as nearly every vehicle will need a long range APS option to augment the close APS systems against even helicopters and mortar teams. View attachment 701986View attachment 701985
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Triple Layer: DIRCM (Vitebsk-25, in a shock hardened mount, ala MUSS) and then kinetic interceptor ala LED-150 to kill threats which might otherwise be tempted to do a ranged EFP attack. And then MEFPS ala Strike Shield for the low tech stuff like NLAW/Javelin/RPG and to /maybe/ pitch change SLRP.
This is half the answer. The other half is NLOS munitions. M1156 PGK is about 13,000 dollars per shot and will come down, in volume. XM1111 would likely be 'in the range' of Copperhead at around 70,000, and will not (static vs. mover engagement).
Moar Dakka as LOS direct fire solutions are stripping MBT rapidly down to helicopter levels of 16-18 shots in the latest, 130mm, guns. And those guns are so powerful that anything under 2,000m is increasingly at mutual kill overmatch, from both sides.
'He who hits first lives' makes ZERO sense when it's a 9 million dollar M1A2D, 10,000nm from garrison. You add the drone-cued NLOS and multizone APS on a 20 million dollar vehicle and it's ruinous. You don't need more than 500 active vehicles in inventory, you won't be able to get them to theater in time, if nothing else.
But they absolutely have to be more than Billy The Kid survivable as 70 ton quick draw artists.
And that's easy to do when you can shrink the caliber to 105mm, punch through the APS with MRSI and do roof kills as opposed to frontal arc nonsense, from 3-4 minutes of drive time. It is silly to have a 10-15km tube and 2-4km cutoff for accurate SLRP.
Add to this that the same Coyote drone which you rely upon for NLOS targeting can kill helicopters and so (with effort) can MRM with IIR/MMW seekers, and it becomes wiser to PAY FOR the survivability, with standoff and secure networking, rather than try to shoot down everything as it swarm-approaches. If you do a Khafji style maneuver regime of individual platoon or even section, 10km standoff attack from each side of the threat AA, the bad guy commander will not even know where to vector the drone swarm or it's force protection overwatch. Mines, ATGW and RT also degrade as targetable multipliers.
But none of this works, if the Pantsir-on-tracks ADV is over there and the other half of the platoon or company level force element has nothing. With the Air Defense Vehicle a tinplate plinker to every known fire out there, the method doesn't match the sunk cost:loss risk.
P.S. It's not the Vikhr you have to worry about. As soon as the Ka-52 or Mi-28 popup to take that shot, every mother's son will point and click at it. The missile to worry about is the LMUR Izdeliye 305. Twelve shot Vikhr was an anti-NATO missile, on the presumption that you launch 20 and 2 get thru (back when we had SHORAD).
In a much more limited total numbers environment, launch 2 recover 2, is more important, due to the cost of the helicopter avionics suite which is increasingly Apache-D/E like. And 8 missiles, going 7-9nm downrange is going to allow small Orlan or even Lancet UAS/LAM to clear the approaches and get helicopters to a beyond local horizon moment where the Copilot Gunner can then treat the big Hellfire like a small Walleye and just 'steer it in'.
Stagger the launches to provide X seconds of CPG seeker FOV switch window, saturate the ADVs first and things get real ugly, quite quick, for the ground maneuver element. Provided you're willing to pay the price for mass production of a multi-link secure missile comms system. Which the AESA based Arbalets followon suggests may be implicit.
 
LEG said:
Triple Layer: DIRCM (Vitebsk-25, in a shock hardened mount, ala MUSS) and then kinetic interceptor ala LED-150 to kill threats which might otherwise be tempted to do a ranged EFP attack.
Click to expand...
The anti-efp stuff is good.
LEG said:
And then MEFPS ala Strike Shield for the low tech stuff like NLAW/Javelin/RPG and to /maybe/ pitch change SLRP.
This is half the answer. The other half is NLOS munitions. M1156 PGK is about 13,000 dollars per shot and will come down, in volume. XM1111 would likely be 'in the range' of Copperhead at around 70,000, and will not (static vs. mover engagement).
Click to expand...
Not sure arty entered this discussion
LEG said:
Moar Dakka as LOS direct fire solutions are stripping MBT rapidly down to helicopter levels of 16-18 shots in the latest, 130mm, guns. And those guns are so powerful that anything under 2,000m is increasingly at mutual kill overmatch, from both sides.
Click to expand...
What is Moar Dakka?
..have been arguing that there is need to get back NLOS for tank guns introduced under FCS which started at 105mm
LEG said:
'He who hits first lives' makes ZERO sense when it's a 9 million dollar M1A2D, 10,000nm from garrison. You add the drone-cued NLOS and multizone APS on a 20 million dollar vehicle and it's ruinous.
Click to expand...
Drone cued NLOS defines the new maneuver supports fire replacing the fire supports maneuver concept being bantered about these days and defines hitting first.
LEG said:
You don't need more than 500 active vehicles in inventory, you won't be able to get them to theater in time, if nothing else.
But they absolutely have to be more than Billy The Kid survivable as 70 ton quick draw artists.
And that's easy to do when you can shrink the caliber to 105mm, punch through the APS with MRSI and do roof kills as opposed to frontal arc nonsense, from 3-4 minutes of drive time. It is silly to have a 10-15km tube and 2-4km cutoff for accurate SLRP.
Click to expand...
Are u suggesting a proactive APS msle out to 15km?..would agree.:)
LEG said:
Add to this that the same Coyote drone which you rely upon for NLOS targeting can kill helicopters and so (with effort) can MRM with IIR/MMW seekers, and it becomes wiser to PAY FOR the survivability, with standoff and secure networking, rather than try to shoot down everything as it swarm-approaches.
Click to expand...
tanks and IFVs shouldnt carry full swarms that is for another vehicle and coyote is more toy garbage.
LEG said:
If you do a Khafji style maneuver regime of individual platoon or even section, 10km standoff attack from each side of the threat AA, the bad guy commander will not even know where to vector the drone swarm or it's force protection overwatch. Mines, ATGW and RT also degrade as targetable multipliers.
Click to expand...
The current ocean of defenses do to small units what they are doing to them now and both sides will have synoptic awareness..Minus full spectrum "blast thru" capability no units have any capability. APS and counter-obstacle/mine is needed at the lowest level
LEG said:
But none of this works, if the Pantsir-on-tracks ADV is over there and the other half of the platoon or company level force element has nothing. With the Air Defense Vehicle a tinplate plinker to every known fire out there, the method doesn't match the sunk cost:loss risk.
P.S. It's not the Vikhr you have to worry about. As soon as the Ka-52 or Mi-28 popup to take that shot, every mother's son will point and click at it. The missile to worry about is the LMUR Izdeliye 305. Twelve shot Vikhr was an anti-NATO missile, on the presumption that you launch 20 and 2 get thru (back when we had SHORAD).
In a much more limited total numbers environment, launch 2 recover 2, is more important, due to the cost of the helicopter avionics suite which is increasingly Apache-D/E like. And 8 missiles, going 7-9nm downrange is going to allow small Orlan or even Lancet UAS/LAM to clear the approaches and get helicopters to a beyond local horizon moment where the Copilot Gunner can then treat the big Hellfire like a small Walleye and just 'steer it in'.
Stagger the launches to provide X seconds of CPG seeker FOV switch window, saturate the ADVs first and things get real ugly, quite quick, for the ground maneuver element. Provided you're willing to pay the price for mass production of a multi-link secure missile comms system. Which the AESA based Arbalets followon suggests may be implicit.
Click to expand...
MAPS
must be a base integrator for a small family of capabilities and deeper magazine APS (s) than trophy IMHO.
 

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