KAI KF-21 Boramae (KFX Korean Indigenous Fighter program)

[Mach42]

SLOWMAN, SOURCES PLEASE.

You ask too much of him.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

SLOWMAN, SOURCES PLEASE.

You ask too much of him.

I should have known better

 

[GTX]

Yes, the T-50 should be less expensive simply because it has a smaller engine etc

Fuel cost is only a minor part of overall operations cost.

Are you really that ignorant that you think I was referring to fuel cost?

Yes, having parts supplied locally can certainly help in regards to speed of support...sometimes ( not in all cases though) but it doesn't also necessarily equate to being less expensive. It also depends upon what parts you are referring to.

I will give you an illustration. Let's say there are two Rolls-Royce owners; one in UK and another in Africa somewhere. The fuel injector of both cars break down and must be replaced by a certified Rolls Royce technician. Now who's gonna pay more? I guarantee you that the owner in Africa will pay several times more to repair his Rolls than the UK owner.

Yet again you show your ignorance by thinking it is as simple as that. Look, if you don't understand how it works in the real world please don't try...you are only embarrassing yourself.

Indonesians pursue the IFX because this is the best jet they could have access to. The best western jet that Indonesia could afford diplomatically and economically is this jet. It's not like Indonesia will be offered F-35 or could afford PAK-FA, so the KFX is the best jet available to Indonesia.

Actually the best that Indonesia could get would probably be more of what that have now...not sub scale F-16s based on a trainer.

 

[Mach42]

Yes, the T-50 should be less expensive simply because it has a smaller engine etc

Fuel cost is only a minor part of overall operations cost.

Are you really that ignorant that you think I was referring to fuel cost?

Yes, having parts supplied locally can certainly help in regards to speed of support...sometimes ( not in all cases though) but it doesn't also necessarily equate to being less expensive. It also depends upon what parts you are referring to.

I will give you an illustration. Let's say there are two Rolls-Royce owners; one in UK and another in Africa somewhere. The fuel injector of both cars break down and must be replaced by a certified Rolls Royce technician. Now who's gonna pay more? I guarantee you that the owner in Africa will pay several times more to repair his Rolls than the UK owner.

Yet again you show your ignorance by thinking it is as simple as that. Look, if you don't understand how it works in the real world please don't try...you are only embarrassing yourself.

Indonesians pursue the IFX because this is the best jet they could have access to. The best western jet that Indonesia could afford diplomatically and economically is this jet. It's not like Indonesia will be offered F-35 or could afford PAK-FA, so the KFX is the best jet available to Indonesia.

Actually the best that Indonesia could get would probably be more of what that have now...not sub scale F-16s based on a trainer.

That's the Philippines your talking about.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kai-philippines-to-enter-final-negotiations-for-12-fa-50s-381688/

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Keep in mind I think of domestic manufacturing and tech that in born from this project as much of a product that is bought with money as the aircraft are.

And that's fine. If Korea has their own reasons like growing their industry, or they feel it will increase the lethality of their military, or that it is simply an investment for the future, good for the ROK.

I just don't like being told it will be unbelievably cheap in the meantime, and then having ignorant slagging of the "foreign" aircraft Korea flies now. Korea has good reasons to want the KFX, we don't have to make up lies and denigrate the aircraft that are serving quite well in order to further justify KFX. Korea may never actually see the kind of savings that offset the investment the KFX will take, and thats fine if saving money isn't the goal. Slowman wants to have the cake and eat it too and that won't happen with the KFX. It doesn't invalidate it though.

Its going to cost, and its going to have problems, and delays, and maybe even a crash along the way, its going to encounter the same issues that developmental aircraft all around the world experience, it doesn't mean its going to be a bad aircraft or it doesn't have its role.

 

[GTX]

The ROKAF's experience with T-50 series jet was that it cost 1/3rd as much as an F-16 to operate despite only 60 examples in existence to date, thanks to the local parts supply industry. Parts ordering for F-15 and F-16 take more than 230 days, but it takes only 10 days for T-50. If something breaks down on an imported jet they must send it back to the country of origin and wait up to a year to have it fixed. In case of the T-50, the technician from the vendor drive to the base within hours of making the repair phone call.

Yes, the T-50 should be less expensive simply because it has a smaller engine etc (it being basically a F404 powered subscale F-16). Yes, having parts supplied locally can certainly help in regards to speed of support...sometimes ( not in all cases though) but it doesn't also necessarily equate to being less expensive. It also depends upon what parts you are referring to.

The fact that the T-50 is newer might have something to do with it.

Explain please.

 

[Matej]

I was expecting some new interesting information about KFX but frankly - last three pages are full of arguing about points of view on the same thing. I am somehow disappointed.

 

[SlowMan]

I was expecting some new interesting information about KFX but frankly - last three pages are full of arguing about points of view on the same thing. I am somehow disappointed.

Well, there can't be any real news until the winner of F-X III contest is announced; because the KFX program is tied to the F-X contest and the winner of F-X is supposed to fill in missing 13% of technology needed to complete the project.

While the main airframe project is stalled pending the outcome of F-X, its components are getting funded under other names, like the new high strength composite material and structure development program approved. This is why you have local avionics computer, cockpit, EO sensor, AESA radar, targeting pod, RAM, etc on display but not the airframe.

What KIDA's claiming is that those locally developed components doesn't have to go into a risky local frame, but into a licensed Super Hornet airframe and not take risks and expense of a new airframe.

 

[Mach42]

The ROKAF's experience with T-50 series jet was that it cost 1/3rd as much as an F-16 to operate despite only 60 examples in existence to date, thanks to the local parts supply industry. Parts ordering for F-15 and F-16 take more than 230 days, but it takes only 10 days for T-50. If something breaks down on an imported jet they must send it back to the country of origin and wait up to a year to have it fixed. In case of the T-50, the technician from the vendor drive to the base within hours of making the repair phone call.

Yes, the T-50 should be less expensive simply because it has a smaller engine etc (it being basically a F404 powered subscale F-16). Yes, having parts supplied locally can certainly help in regards to speed of support...sometimes ( not in all cases though) but it doesn't also necessarily equate to being less expensive. It also depends upon what parts you are referring to.

The fact that the T-50 is newer might have something to do with it.

Explain please.

Although there will be glitches wouldn't a newer aircraft have less problems and maintenance required than a older one? (Derp edit)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Please can we stop with the F-35 style pointless bickering and get back to facts please?

 

[Mach42]

Translated some of the pdf for you guys.

 

[SlowMan]

SLOWMAN, SOURCES PLEASE.

I kinda have a source as of today.

http://afnews.kr/27 <ROKAF official news blog>

This is a rebuttal of a press news that claimed that the F-15K maintenance cost doubled overnight in 2012. The air force claims the cost increase was the result of down payment for PBL signed with Boeing, and that the numbers should drop in following years.

And in this official rebuttal the air force unexpectedly stresses the importance of KFX because of this very maintenance cost issue.

꼭 드리고 싶은 말씀!!

F-15K는 KF-16에 비해 획득단가가 거의 세 배입니다. 유지비 역시 많이 들 수밖에 없습니다.
2008년부터 2012년까지 F-15K의 대당 유지비(연간)는 17.8억원이었습니다. 2013년 올해 대당유지비는 26.7억원이 될 것으로 판단하고 있습니다. 이후 성능개량이 이뤄지게 되면 비용은 더 늘어나겠지요.
직구매 항공기의 경우 이렇게 운영유지비 부담이 클 수밖에 없습니다. 그럼에도 불구하고 공군이 대한민국에 대한 위협을 억제하고 단호히 응징할 수 있으려면 필연적으로 감수해야 할 부담입니다.

한국형 전투기 개발사업(KFX)은 그래서 더 중요합니다.
막대한 개발비가 들겠지만 30-40년을 운용할 경우 유지비나 성능개량, 개조 측면에서 절감할 수 있는 부분이 큽니다.
국내 산업 전반에 걸쳐 엄청난 부가가치를 창출하는 것은 두 말 할 나위도 없겠지요.

The word you'd like!

F-15K is almost three times compared to the KF-16 acquisition price may. Also forced a lot of upkeep.
2008 to 2012 F-15K per maintenance costs (annual) 17.8 was one hundred million won. 26.7 billion in the year 2013 per upkeep will be judged. Performance improvement since the cost will be more stretched. Yirwojige
The case of direct purchase aircraft are forced to operating maintenance cost burden greater Nonetheless resolutely punish and to be able to suppress the threat for the Republic of Korea Air Force inevitably have to endure the burden.

Korean fighter development projects (KFX), so it is more important.
Enormous development costs to run 30-40 shot, but if you can keep the rain and the performance improvement, alteration in terms of savings is part of that.
A tremendous added value across the domestic industry, needless to say, must needs.

 

[chuck4]

Please can we stop with the F-35 style pointless bickering and get back to facts please?

Facts would be harder to come by for a plane that is not schedule to actually exist for 7 more years, and yet is already embroiled in high emotionalism.

Imagine what could be said about F-35 if it already as emotional an issue as it is now, but the first demonstrator won't fly till 2020.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Please can we stop with the F-35 style pointless bickering and get back to facts please?

Facts would be harder to come by for a plane that is not schedule to actually exist for 7 more years, and yet is already embroiled in high emotionalism.

Imagine what could be said about F-35 if it already as emotional an issue as it is now, but the first demonstrator won't fly till 2020.

I'm trying to get at the facts myself. :-\

 

[Mach42]

Please can we stop with the F-35 style pointless bickering and get back to facts please?

Facts would be harder to come by for a plane that is not schedule to actually exist for 7 more years, and yet is already embroiled in high emotionalism.

Imagine what could be said about F-35 if it already as emotional an issue as it is now, but the first demonstrator won't fly till 2020.

I'm trying to get at the facts myself. :-\

Talking about a paper plane is not that fun huh.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

Please can we stop with the F-35 style pointless bickering and get back to facts please?

Facts would be harder to come by for a plane that is not schedule to actually exist for 7 more years, and yet is already embroiled in high emotionalism.

Imagine what could be said about F-35 if it already as emotional an issue as it is now, but the first demonstrator won't fly till 2020.

I'm trying to get at the facts myself. :-\

Talking about a paper plane is not that fun huh.

Its what I expect, I just don't like wild conjecture and outright hearsay passed off as stone cold fact...

I know its still in development obviously but this thread is full of interesting pictures and articles, we really don't need the "individual commentary" if you get my drift... without sources its fan fiction/alternate history.

"the facts we get are few and far between as it is, the stuff you make up on your own help us even less" ;D

http://www.stratpost.com/gripen-operational-cost-lowest-of-all-western-fighters-janes

Here is an article that puts hourly fuel cost for the EF2000 at $8200. $8200 for the fuel alone. So when someone tells me that this airplane will have a CPFH 1/3 of the Super Hornet (CPFH of SH being roughly $15000) that puts the KFX at $5,000 CPFH? Is it solar powered? How does it being made in Korea mean it no longer runs on jet fuel?

Korea will save where there can be savings. What I mean by that is some pretty basic economic principals say Korea will only have drastic savings if the cost of import was drastic itself. If for example the cost of importing a part is $100 and $5 of that is for shipping and $5 for profit, if that part was made domestically it would cost $90 theoretically. so you save like 10 percent. Not 66 percent. Not a "fraction" of the cost unless that fraction is 9/10.

In order for Korea to have drastic savings they would have to be drastically overpaying as it is, and I'm sorry to say but they are not drastically overpaying. The USAF which operates similar F-15s domestically and abroad pays about what the Koreans do. We don't get 66 percent off for being "local" either. Sweden is probably the undisputed king of cheap fighter class aircraft with the Gripen, and its not a drastic savings used locally either.

 

[Mach42]

Oh look.

I translated the some of the pdf for a reason.

 

[GTX]

Indonesia, South Korea to Build Fighter Aircraft
(Source: UPI; published March. 1, 2013)

JAKARTA --- Indonesia and South Korea are cooperating in building a joint fighter but politics are delaying progress.

The project will produce the KFX/IFX fighter, which is called a "4.5-generation" combatant aircraft, as opposed to the U.S. Lockheed Martin fifth-generation stealth Lightning-II F-35 fighter.

The KFX/IFX fighter's abilities are designed to be more advanced than the U.S.-built Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon jet aircraft. The KFX/IFX fighter jets will eventually be designated the F-33, with a capability slightly below the F-35.

However, the entire project will be slow off the mark, Indonesian Defense Ministry official Pos Hutabarat said. "It will be postponed in 1 1/2 years because the recent transition of power in South Korea," he said at a defense industry seminar in Jakarta. "The new president has just been inaugurated in that country. The new government needs more data to convince the Parliament."

South Korea on Monday marked the inauguration of President Park Geun-hye.

Pos said the delay will push back collaboration on the project to June 2014.

He said the Indonesian government was contributing 20 percent of the aircraft development costs, with the rest coming from Seoul, China's Xinhua news agency reported Thursday.

Pos added that Indonesia has sent 30 engineers involved in the work to design the KFX/IFX fighter at South Korea's Korea Aerospace Industries defense facility.

Indonesia currently deploys 10 F-16As and South Korea about 135 of F-16 fighters, many of which were built in South Korea under a $5.5 billion technology transfer licensing agreement with General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin), from 1994-2004.

Seoul and Jakarta project that the joint fighter program will construct 250 KFX/IFX jets, with Indonesia to receive 50 aircraft by 2020.

The price of a KFX/IFX fighter is estimated at roughly $50 million-$60 million per aircraft. In contrast, Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II, is estimated substantially more and the price tag is constantly rising with cost overruns.

In 2010 South Korea and Indonesia agreed to cooperate in the production of KFX/IFX warplanes.

The countries agreed that the initial KFX/IFX operational requirements were to develop a single-seat, twin-engine jet with stealth capabilities beyond either the Dassault Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon, both of which British and French defense firms were promoting in Asia. They also planned for the KFX/IFX would have capabilities marginally less advanced than the F-35.

Compared to the U.S.-built Fighting Falcon F-16s, the KFX/IFX has been designed to have a 50 percent greater combat radius, a 34 percent longer airframe lifespan, better avionics and better electronic warfare and data uplink capabilities.

Although South Korea is underwriting the majority of the KFX/IFX and has substantial technology to produce the fighter, it is seeking partnership cooperation beyond its initial collaboration with from Indonesian Aerospace, possibly to include Turkish Aerospace Industries, Sweden's SAAB and U.S. firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin to implement the project.

-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=143099&shop=dae&modele=release

 

[lastdingo]

http://defense-studies.blogspot.de/2013/02/proyek-pesawat-tempur-kfx-ditunda-15.html

 

[SlowMan]

So it's now called F-33???? Who named it the F-33?

 

[Mach42]

So it's now called F-33???? Who named it the F-33?

Fan art.

 

[GTX]

Oh look...a comparison using:

-- An LRIP6 F-35 (FY2012) which included many non-F-35 components like FMS Simulators, stand-up costs, etc
-- An average T1/T2 Eurofighter cost (year not given)
-- An FY2008 Rafale
-- An FY2012 F-18
-- An unknown year or build rate KF-X cost


Thanks to SpudmanWP for breakdown.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Indonesian sources are reporting that the South Korean's have unilaterally cancelled the contracts related to co-development of the K-FX project whilst they re-evaluate the project.

 

[SlowMan]

Indonesian sources are reporting that the South Korean's have unilaterally cancelled the contracts related to co-development of the K-FX project whilst they re-evaluate the project.

Not true. The full scale development phase has been delayed by 1.5 years, due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey regarding the Turkish participation scheduled to close in September, and the decision on the F-X contest whose tech transfer will be used to fill in missing 13% of KFX content.

All the elements has to be set in place before the full scale development can take place.

 

[chuck4]

Indonesian sources are reporting that the South Korean's have unilaterally cancelled the contracts related to co-development of the K-FX project whilst they re-evaluate the project.

Not true. The full scale development phase has been delayed by 1.5 years, due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey regarding the Turkish participation scheduled to close in September, and the decision on the F-X contest whose tech transfer will be used to fill in missing 13% of KFX content.

All the elements has to be set in place before the full scale development can take place.

In other words, your bluster aside, Korea has yet to demonstrate the elementary project management skill needed to actually kick off the project, to say nothing of the much more sophisticated project management skill that would be required to actually make anything internationally competitive out of the project.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Not true. The full scale development phase has been delayed by 1.5 years, due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey regarding the Turkish participation scheduled to close in September, and the decision on the F-X contest whose tech transfer will be used to fill in missing 13% of KFX content.

All the elements has to be set in place before the full scale development can take place.

I never said that South Korea had cancelled K-FX, what I said was that Indonesian sources are saying that the co-development contracts have been cancelled. See here (amongst many others): http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2013/03/02/16481431/DPR.Pembatalan.KFX/IFX.Rugikan.Indonesia.Rp.1.6.T

Coincidently, this "postponement" has resulted in much debate about the merits of the project in Indonesia.

 

[SlowMan]

Not true. The full scale development phase has been delayed by 1.5 years, due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey regarding the Turkish participation scheduled to close in September, and the decision on the F-X contest whose tech transfer will be used to fill in missing 13% of KFX content.

All the elements has to be set in place before the full scale development can take place.

I never said that South Korea had cancelled K-FX, what I said was that Indonesian sources are saying that the co-development contracts have been cancelled. See here (amongst many others): http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2013/03/02/16481431/DPR.Pembatalan.KFX/IFX.Rugikan.Indonesia.Rp.1.6.T

Coincidently, this "postponement" has resulted in much debate about the merits of the project in Indonesia.

Not only there is no report or even rumors of cancellation, the Korean government is actually negotiating hard to bring in the 3rd partner into the program.

And the current market condition for fighter jets has made the KFX an absolute necessity, not an option, with the cost of new jets souring beyond the affordability. Supposed the KFX is cancelled, now what? Dismantle the air force the European style? That simply isn't an option.

 

[chuck4]

You can admit that you lack the competence to not pay LM prices and still have any airforce suitable for patroitic chest thumping, and pay the LM prices.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

.

And the current market condition for fighter jets has made the KFX an absolute necessity, not an option, with the cost of new jets souring beyond the affordability.

assuming its cheaper of course...

If you can afford $6 billion for development alone, you can afford other options. :

 

[JFC Fuller]

Not only there is no report or even rumors of cancellation, the Korean government is actually negotiating hard to bring in the 3rd partner into the program.

And the current market condition for fighter jets has made the KFX an absolute necessity, not an option, with the cost of new jets souring beyond the affordability. Supposed the KFX is cancelled, now what? Dismantle the air force the European style? That simply isn't an option.

I never said Korea was cancelling the whole K-FX programme, I said that Indonesian reports (and I provided a link to one of them) are claiming that the South Koreans have cancelled the current contracts related to the co-development of the type.

 

[Mach42]

http://www.angkasa.co.id/index.php/fokus/324-apa-kabar-kfx
Just found an additional interview from a fan site http://arc.web.id/artikl/55-tni-au/482-optimis-dengan-kfxifx.html

Sorry for quoting myself but I guess those guys got quite a shock if thats true.

 

[Mach42]

Indonesian sources are reporting that the South Korean's have unilaterally cancelled the contracts related to co-development of the K-FX project whilst they re-evaluate the project.

Not true. The full scale development phase has been delayed by 1.5 years, due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey regarding the Turkish participation scheduled to close in September, and the decision on the F-X contest whose tech transfer will be used to fill in missing 13% of KFX content.

All the elements has to be set in place before the full scale development can take place.

I never said that South Korea had cancelled K-FX, what I said was that Indonesian sources are saying that the co-development contracts have been cancelled. See here (amongst many others): http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2013/03/02/16481431/DPR.Pembatalan.KFX/IFX.Rugikan.Indonesia.Rp.1.6.T

Coincidently, this "postponement" has resulted in much debate about the merits of the project in Indonesia.

You know this how?

Not only there is no report or even rumors of cancellation, the Korean government is actually negotiating hard to bring in the 3rd partner into the program.

And the current market condition for fighter jets has made the KFX an absolute necessity, not an option, with the cost of new jets souring beyond the affordability. Supposed the KFX is cancelled, now what? Dismantle the air force the European style? That simply isn't an option.

I never said Korea was cancelling the whole K-FX programme, I said that Indonesian reports (and I provided a link to one of them) are claiming that the South Koreans have cancelled the current contracts related to the co-development of the type.

I am no discounting anything but it looks like a Politician from the opposition is trying to skewer the current admin about it. Maybe he misunderstood the situation? Just thinking aloud.

.

And the current market condition for fighter jets has made the KFX an absolute necessity, not an option, with the cost of new jets souring beyond the affordability.

assuming its cheaper of course...

If you can afford $6 billion for development alone, you can afford other options. :

What other options?

Indonesian sources are reporting that the South Korean's have unilaterally cancelled the contracts related to co-development of the K-FX project whilst they re-evaluate the project.

Not true. The full scale development phase has been delayed by 1.5 years, due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey regarding the Turkish participation scheduled to close in September, and the decision on the F-X contest whose tech transfer will be used to fill in missing 13% of KFX content.

All the elements has to be set in place before the full scale development can take place.

In other words, your bluster aside, Korea has yet to demonstrate the elementary project management skill needed to actually kick off the project, to say nothing of the much more sophisticated project management skill that would be required to actually make anything internationally competitive out of the project.

You can admit that you lack the competence to not pay LM prices and still have any airforce suitable for patroitic chest thumping, and pay the LM prices.

1. If delays were a measure of competence then no one can make a plane on this earth. Not to mention we are doing fine with project management in other areas, thank you.
2. Your stupid one liners are getting on my nerves, why don't you make a contribution we can actually build upon. Im fine with negativity as long as you don't be an ass, thanks again.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

What other options?

Since slowman is trying to paint the picture that Korea is doomed without the ultra cheap KFX (that we established earlier would not be cheap, but price isn't the goal anyway) Korea does have the ability to spend its money on other aircraft. Its not the kind of self reliance that Korea would have hoped for but its not the spazzy disarming he is claiming.

Its really simple: If Korea for whatever reason can't build their own combat aircraft, they will import them as they have done in the past in order to stay militarily ready.

 

[SlowMan]

I never said Korea was cancelling the whole K-FX programme, I said that Indonesian reports (and I provided a link to one of them) are claiming that the South Koreans have cancelled the current contracts related to the co-development of the type.

http://www.janes.com/products/janes/defence-security-report.aspx?ID=1065976991&channel=defence&subChannel=business

Indonesia confirms South Korean delays to joint KFX/IFX fighter programme
By James Hardy and Jon Grevatt
3/8/2013

Indonesia has reaffirmed its commitment to the joint Korean Fighter Xperiment/Indonesia Fighter Xperiment (KFX/IFX) combat aircraft programme after Seoul decided to delay the project by 18 months.

The Indonesian Ministry of Defence (MoD) released a statement on 4 March confirming that the South Korean Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) had delayed the next stage of a programme to develop a next-generation fighter aircraft.

The two countries signed an agreement in August 2012 to start a research and development (R&D) programme intended to produce an advanced multirole combat aircraft by 2020 at a dedicated facility in the central South Korean city of Daejeon, DAPA said at the time.

South Korea's Agency for Defence Development and manufacturer Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) are leading the project with assistance from the Indonesian state-owned defence R&D agency and aviation company PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI). DAPA said 130 scientists and engineers are involved in the programme: 100 from South Korea and 30 from Indonesia.

Under agreements signed in 2012, Indonesia will pay up to 20% of costs for the USD5 billion development programme, with the remaining 80% split 60:20 between the South Korean government and KAI.

Delayed due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey and the F-X selection whose winning vendor will provide engineering consultation, not cancelled.

 

[GTX]

Where in that article does it say anything about "Delayed due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey and the F-X selection"???

 

[JFC Fuller]

Delayed due to an ongoing negotiation with Turkey and the F-X selection whose winning vendor will provide engineering consultation, not cancelled.

Firstly, that article is from Jane's (not what they were, to say the least), secondly it does not mention Turkey and finally I never said that the entire K-FX programme had been cancelled- only that the Indonesian press were reporting that the existing co-development contracts had been cancelled.

 

[GTX]

finally I never said that the entire K-FX programme had been cancelled- only that the Indonesian press were reporting that the existing co-development contracts had been cancelled.

I don't think he is listening mate.

 

[Mach42]

I think he is trying to use Indonesia's commitment and lack of mention of any canceling to prove himself right (I honestly don't know.) Also there was a statement to prevent giving fellows like slowman heart attacks that was made after there failed to be any cash allocation to KF-X EMD in the 2013 budget. In that statement that they still had some money and during the delay they would do things including further negotiations with Turkey.

 

[chuck4]

I think even if officially cancelled now, some form of KFX will probably be resurrected between now and 2020 because that is what Korean nationalism and the aspiration to finally become something of an independent regional military power in its own right, maybe something comparable to France or England, would demand. Slowman is just so enamored with that aspiration that he can't bear the suggestion that its achievement wasn't already a sure thing. But whatever form KFX takes I think probably won't be much cheaper per unit, and almost certainly won't be nearly as good, as the F-35, because face it, flat screen display units and and fancy batteries aside, Korean industrial experience applicable to fighter design fall far short of those of England and France, much less the US. Indonesia and Turkey would bring almost nothing to the table in the areas of experience and know how.

I might have wondered why South Korea didn't approach Russia, as she did with her satellite launch rocket project. Russia would have been a much more valuable partner in any collabrative fighter project than either Indonesia or Turkey.

 

[TaiidanTomcat]

I think even if officially cancelled now, some form of KFX will probably be resurrected between now and 2020 because that is what Korean nationalism and the aspiration to finally become something of an independent regional military power in its own right, maybe something comparable to France or England, would demand. Slowman is just so enamored with that aspiration that he can't bear the suggestion that its achievement wasn't already a sure thing. But whatever form KFX takes I think probably won't be much cheaper per unit, and almost certainly won't be nearly as good, as the F-35, because face it, flat screen display units and and fancy batteries aside, Korean industrial experience applicable to fighter design fall far short of those of England and France, much less the US. Indonesia and Turkey would bring almost nothing to the table in the areas of experience and know how.

I might have wondered why South Korea didn't approach Russia, as she did with her satellite launch rocket project. Russia would have been a much more valuable partner in any collabrative fighter project than either Indonesia or Turkey.

The Mitsu F-2 comes to mind. A very expensive home grown F-16