Japanese next generation fighter studies (aka i3, F-3)

trose213 said:
asia.nikkei.com

Japan targets 2031 production start of homegrown stealth fighter

Plane's development was promised in defense buildup plan
asia.nikkei.com asia.nikkei.com

"Japan plans to begin mass production of a cutting-edge, domestically developed fighter jet in fiscal 2031, aiming to start deployment in 2035 when its fleet of aging F-2 planes is scheduled to be retired, according to plan presented Tuesday by the Defense Ministry.
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This is about 100 Airframes. Maybe like F-2, 4 prototypes and 98 serial production. I would love to see more tho to reduce cost
 
some other tidbits I found in Japanese news
mainichi.jp

次期戦闘機　「ステルス性能などは国産、米英と部分協力も」　政府、自民に提示 | 毎日新聞

防衛省は7日、2035年ごろから退役する航空自衛隊のF2戦闘機の後継機について、31年度に量産機の製造を始める基本方針を自民党に示した。ステルス性能など主要機能は原則、国内開発を目指す一方、米英政府や企業と部分協力する方針で協議を進めている。開発協力相手を年内に決定する方針も示した。
mainichi.jp mainichi.jp

both the US and UK will be partners of varying extent
the UK will be responsible for the engines..
i wonder if this means we will see an EJ200 variant powering this plane?
or something the Tempest would use?
 
IMOHO it can only be a new engine. Japan produced a test engine, the XF9 and claims that it fulfilled all expectations. The partnership with RR can only be over shared production of components to drive down cost. Also Gmbh owns part of the Ej200 making dubious a cross platform integration (but would be nice to see).
 
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Grey Havoc said:
The program is moving far too slowly, especially given current events.
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The program needs to be speeded up quite a lot, an announcement on who would be the international partner would help start things off.
 
helmutkohl said:
some other tidbits I found in Japanese news
mainichi.jp

次期戦闘機　「ステルス性能などは国産、米英と部分協力も」　政府、自民に提示 | 毎日新聞

防衛省は7日、2035年ごろから退役する航空自衛隊のF2戦闘機の後継機について、31年度に量産機の製造を始める基本方針を自民党に示した。ステルス性能など主要機能は原則、国内開発を目指す一方、米英政府や企業と部分協力する方針で協議を進めている。開発協力相手を年内に決定する方針も示した。
mainichi.jp mainichi.jp

both the US and UK will be partners of varying extent
the UK will be responsible for the engines..
i wonder if this means we will see an EJ200 variant powering this plane?
or something the Tempest would use?
Click to expand...
Well, this program seems allways unclear for who will be really partner(s)...

Defense News article :

www.defensenews.com

Japan unveils timeline for indigenous fighter jet program

The new fighter is slated to replace about 90 Mitsubishi F-2 fighters, which are due to be phased out in the mid-2030s.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

Japan has created a timeline for the development and fielding of its locally made next-generation fighter jet, (...)
The Japanese Ministry of Defense presented the draft development plan for the fighter program to a group of lawmakers from the ruling Liberal Democratic Party on Tuesday, which showed that full-scale production is due to begin in 2031.
The ministry added that the prime contractor for the program will be selected by early next year, although it could happen as soon as October 2020. This is to allow for the basic design for the airframe and engine to be launched before the end of the current Japanese fiscal year, which ends March 31, 2021.
The next step would be the production of the first fighter prototype, which is planned to begin in 2024, with flight tests earmarked to start in 2028 following finalization of the design and production plans.
The new fighter is slated to replace about 90 Mitsubishi Heavy Industries F-2 fighters, which are due to be phased out in the mid-2030s, as its replacement is to be formally introduced into service in 2035.
(...)
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www.epochtimes.jp

日本国産のステルス戦闘機　2031年めどに生産開始目指す　防衛省

防衛省は、航空自衛隊のF2戦闘機の後継となる次期戦闘機について、2031年度に初号機の製造を始めるというスケジュールの案を示した。自民党の議員連盟の会議で述べた。防衛相は、戦闘機開発について、米国と英国との協議も加速させている。
www.epochtimes.jp www.epochtimes.jp
translation and key tidbits

The new jet will begin production in 2031
Its target is to replace the F-2 (hmm I thought it would replace the F-15.. the F-35 seems more of an F-2 replacement)
They plan to retire the F-2s by 2035

Prototype will be completed in 2024 (if its this early, I assume they've already finalized a configuration)
first flight will be 2028
 
so Mitsubishi was chosen? can't say I'm surprised.
it would be like KAI winning a contest in Korea
or Saab in Sweden
 
^ cool design and i like it
but not really new. in fact go to the previous pages in this thread
 
FighterJock said:
helmutkohl said:
Dreamfighter said:
Looks somewhat like a mix of NG F-23A and MDC/NG/BAe JSF-proposal
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I really loved those MDC/NG designs :( I wish it could have been chosen as one of the two finalists for JSF
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Same here helmutkohl. To this day I do not know why they picked the Boeing X-32 over the McDonnell Douglas/Northrop design. :(
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My understanding is that the use of separate lift jets seen as a major weakness/ flaw (both from a logistic and making-STOVL-practical perspectives).
Also that Lockheed’s proposal was miles ahead of its competitors and that Boeing really only advanced as the least-worst of Lockheed’s competitors (with interest in Boeing’s production technology/ methodology).
 
FighterJock said:
Same here helmutkohl. To this day I do not know why they picked the Boeing X-32 over the McDonnell Douglas/Northrop design.
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The McD proposal was marginal at best, which reflected an air of arrogance within management - i.e. - how could they not select us, we are the only company that has built an operational VTOL fighter in the US. Plus, the A-12 debacle did not help the issue.
 
Current information so far indicates that the aircraft would have a XF-9 or a production version of it. One important piece is that it has a generator capable of generating 180 KW of power. twin engine would make it 360. This is a considerable amount of power to spare. It could easily accommodate 20KW++ peak power AESA maybe 27 if it can spare 25 KW of cooling for the AESA and its respective avionics.

I tried to make a "trendline" relating cooling capacity of a Radar vs its fuel capacity. It's unfortunately very hard to find data of, thus it would have error and there is no way for me to check the accuracy. Plus i only managed to get few data points as follows :

fuel capacity.png

As seen to be able to "spare" 25 KW of cooling, the aircraft would need to have fuel capacity of 10.2 metric tonne. If it could do better, then it can cool more and accommodate more powerful radar.

The fuel here act as a heatsink for the cooling system. current modern fighters appears to rely on liquid cooling for Avionics, and use its fuel as heatsink. Air cooling can be considered however the performance appears to be varies by altitude and may actually prevent use of high power avionics until it's "high up there" e.g 9100 m where air is about -60 Deg Celcius. It is therefore i conclude that there could be a relationship between fuel capacity and cooling capacity. One may have larger cooling pumps and flows but the heat from the cooling fluid has to go somewhere from the heat exchanger. This heat exchanger if exposed may be source of Infra red signature.

The bottom line, the more avionics one get, more heat thus more fuel is required to cool it. In the other hand, knowing the required cooling may allow approximation of required fuel capacity which in turn one can get idea on how big the aircraft would be.


Correction : I made mistake in the chart. The cooling capacity for Chinese AEW was supposed to be 200 KW instead of previously listed 100. My apology.
 
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stealthflanker said:
Current information so far indicates that the aircraft would have a XF-9 or a production version of it. One important piece is that it has a generator capable of generating 180 KW of power. twin engine would make it 360. This is a considerable amount of power to spare. It could easily accommodate 20KW++ peak power AESA maybe 27 if it can spare 25 KW of cooling for the AESA and its respective avionics.

I tried to make a "trendline" relating cooling capacity of a Radar vs its fuel capacity. It's unfortunately very hard to find data of, thus it would have error and there is no way for me to check the accuracy. Plus i only managed to get few data points as follows :

View attachment 638862

As seen to be able to "spare" 25 KW of cooling, the aircraft would need to have fuel capacity of 10.2 metric tonne. If it could do better, then it can cool more and accommodate more powerful radar.

The fuel here act as a heatsink for the cooling system. current modern fighters appears to rely on liquid cooling for Avionics, and use its fuel as heatsink. Air cooling can be considered however the performance appears to be varies by altitude and may actually prevent use of high power avionics until it's "high up there" e.g 9100 m where air is about -60 Deg Celcius. It is therefore i conclude that there could be a relationship between fuel capacity and cooling capacity. One may have larger cooling pumps and flows but the heat from the cooling fluid has to go somewhere from the heat exchanger. This heat exchanger if exposed may be source of Infra red signature.

The bottom line, the more avionics one get, more heat thus more fuel is required to cool it. In the other hand, knowing the required cooling may allow approximation of required fuel capacity which in turn one can get idea on how big the aircraft would be.


Correction : I made mistake in the chart. The cooling capacity for Chinese AEW was supposed to be 200 KW instead of previously listed 100. My apology.
Click to expand...
I think the XF-9 can generate more electricity than that, F-3 is a very new aircraft, even F-35 could generate about 400KVA ≈ 320 KW
F-35 electricity generation.PNG

Also, I don't think aircraft use all their fuel as cooling though, probably only a fraction of it, otherwise radar power will keep decreasing as aircraft will consume its fuel while it traveling
Secondly, modern aircraft from the F-35 onward seem to put the heat exchanger inside the engine so it won't be a source of infrared signature
f-35-thermal.png
f-135-heat-exchanger.png
1-1.png
 
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Ronny said:
I think the XF-9 can generate more electricity than that, F-3 is a very new aircraft, even F-35 could generate about 400KVA ≈ 320 KW
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I see, this would indicate a new generator.

Also, I don't think aircraft use all their fuel as cooling though, probably only a fraction of it, otherwise radar power will keep decreasing as aircraft will consume its fuel while it traveling
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Well i'm not suggesting that the fighter will use all of its fuel for cooling. I merely see that there is a relationship between cooling capacity and quantity of fuel and aircraft can carry.

Secondly, modern aircraft from the F-35 onward seem to put the heat exchanger inside the engine so it won't be a source of infrared signature
Click to expand...

Still, doesnt that mean at higher altitude cooling capacity would decrease as there is less (although cooler) air above there ?
 
Compressed air. I am not sure that an heat exchanger placed downstream of the engine compressor will be much affected by the external pressure loss of one bar max.
 
amazing, a non US/EU powerful engine alternative exists!
I wonder if Japan is willing to export it to other countries such as Turkey or India, which are trying to make their own stealthy aircraft
 
helmutkohl said:
amazing, a non US/EU powerful engine alternative exists!
I wonder if Japan is willing to export it to other countries such as Turkey or India, which are trying to make their own stealthy aircraft
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I would like to see the engine exported as it would give more competition to the likes of General Dynamics/Pratt and Whitney and the European engine manufacturer's such as Eurojet and the French SNECMA which powers the Rafale.
 
is this new engine powerful enough to even power the F-35, perhaps in a future domestic version that is re-engined (perhaps allowing for supercruise?)
 
helmutkohl said:
amazing, a non US/EU powerful engine alternative exists!
I wonder if Japan is willing to export it to other countries such as Turkey or India, which are trying to make their own stealthy aircraft
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I very much doubt it would be sold to either of them, especially Turkey considering the direction of political travel in that country.
 
And India would likely want a custom version which may not necessarily share characteristics with Japanese requirement.
 
Deino said:
Turkey and India? ... simply forget it!
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why not India?
Japan is currently trying to sell them the US-2 and they're trying to form some kind of defense agreements mostly aimed towards China
 
The XF9-1 could be an interesting retrofit for Japanese F-15s. A high bypass derivative would make sense too.
 
trose213 said:
Would maybe see Japan trying to sell the F-3 on the market to allied countries, only a couple could afford.
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India could buy a few F-3 to supplement the MCA whenever that get's built and delivered to frontline squadrons.
 

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