Information and questions about the MV-22 / CV-22 Osprey

Cordy said:
yasotay said:
DOT&E rarely gives a clean bill of health to any aircraft. I have heard/read/rumored that other than the P-8 series the C/MV-22 series still has the best safety record/flight hour in the US DoD. Until the recent circumstances were obtained it had the highest Operational Tempo in the US DoD.
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I have heard/read/rumored for many years that the Admirals and Generals want the DOT&E report killed off as it can reveal the truth about their weapons system effectiveness, and it can be too embarrising, they partially succeeded this year as they convinced ret'd General Lloyd Austin the new Sec of Defense to only issue an abbreviated “controlled unclassified information” version of the DOT&E report (Austin is an exception as Congress normally insist on civilian as Sec of Defense so this would not be allowed).

The DOT&E report has leaked out on the CMV-22B and you can see why the Marine Generals didn't want it released, a snippet from the Forbes article that sums up the military double speak, you would think the Colonel was a politician speaking "The DOT&E assessment also noted that the CMV-22’s HF radio - crucial for long distance communications over water - demonstrated “a 12% success rate for long-range, two-way communications.” Col. Taylor asserts that the HF radio reliability is “very good” LOL
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Why would the Marines care about the CMV-22B report? It's a Navy aircraft.

DOT&E reports are frustrating for program managers. They are almost never positive; the testers do seem to go out of their way to find something wrong with every single program. And that can make the reports less than helpful, because some of the negatives are just cosmetic while others are actual show-stoppers, but unsophisticated readers (e.g., Congressional member staff) can't always tell the difference.
 

Marine Corps Releases Command Investigation Into the MV-22B Osprey Mishap in California on

The investigation into the cause of the Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 364, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing MV-22B Osprey mishap in Glamis, California, on June 8, 2022, is complete. We have provided the
www.marines.mil
www.airforcetimes.com

Clutch problem in Osprey led to death of 5 Marines in 2022, Corps says

“A catastrophic, unpreventable and unanticipated mechanical failure occurred,” the V-22 Joint Program Office said in a statement Friday.
www.airforcetimes.com www.airforcetimes.com
 
aonestudio said:

Marine Corps Releases Command Investigation Into the MV-22B Osprey Mishap in California on

The investigation into the cause of the Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 364, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing MV-22B Osprey mishap in Glamis, California, on June 8, 2022, is complete. We have provided the
www.marines.mil
www.airforcetimes.com

Clutch problem in Osprey led to death of 5 Marines in 2022, Corps says

“A catastrophic, unpreventable and unanticipated mechanical failure occurred,” the V-22 Joint Program Office said in a statement Friday.
www.airforcetimes.com www.airforcetimes.com
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"Pilots did everything right, mechanics did everything right, and it still broke."
 
Three Marines killed and several others seriously wounded yesterday in Australia

Previous Osprey crashes listed by CNN and DoD news releases​

July 20, 1992: Seven people are killed during testing when an Osprey crashes in Virginia.
April 8, 2000: A crash during training in Arizona kills 19 Marines. The crash is blamed on pilot error, with investigators concluding the pilot tried to land too fast and at too steep an angle, causing a loss of lift.
December 11, 2000: Four Marines are killed when an Osprey crashes in North Carolina. The accident is later blamed on problems with a hydraulic part and a software anomaly in the aircraft’s computer system.
April 8, 2010: US Air Force Osprey crashes in southern Afghanistan, killing three US service members and one civilian employee.
April 11, 2012: Two US personnel are killed in an Osprey crash in Morocco.
June 13, 2012: An Air Force CV-22 Osprey crashes during a routine training mission north of Navarre, Florida, injuring five.
May 17, 2015: A Marine Corps MV-22 Osprey crashes at Bellows training ground on Oahu, Hawaii, leaving two Marines dead.
December 13, 2016: An MV-22B Osprey lands in shallow waters off Okinawa, Japan, injuring two.
August 5, 2017: An MV-22B Osprey crashes off the coast of Australia, leaving three Marines dead.
September 28, 2017: A Marine Corps MV-22 Osprey crashes in Syria, injuring two service members.
March 18, 2022: Four US service members are killed when the MV-22 Osprey they are traveling in crashes during NATO training exercises in Norway.
June 8, 2022: Five US Marines die after an MV-22 Osprey crashes during a training mission Wednesday near Glamis, California.
 
Cordy said:
Three Marines killed and several others seriously wounded yesterday in Australia

Previous Osprey crashes listed by CNN and DoD news releases​

July 20, 1992: Seven people are killed during testing when an Osprey crashes in Virginia.
April 8, 2000: A crash during training in Arizona kills 19 Marines. The crash is blamed on pilot error, with investigators concluding the pilot tried to land too fast and at too steep an angle, causing a loss of lift.
December 11, 2000: Four Marines are killed when an Osprey crashes in North Carolina. The accident is later blamed on problems with a hydraulic part and a software anomaly in the aircraft’s computer system.
April 8, 2010: US Air Force Osprey crashes in southern Afghanistan, killing three US service members and one civilian employee.
April 11, 2012: Two US personnel are killed in an Osprey crash in Morocco.
June 13, 2012: An Air Force CV-22 Osprey crashes during a routine training mission north of Navarre, Florida, injuring five.
May 17, 2015: A Marine Corps MV-22 Osprey crashes at Bellows training ground on Oahu, Hawaii, leaving two Marines dead.
December 13, 2016: An MV-22B Osprey lands in shallow waters off Okinawa, Japan, injuring two.
August 5, 2017: An MV-22B Osprey crashes off the coast of Australia, leaving three Marines dead.
September 28, 2017: A Marine Corps MV-22 Osprey crashes in Syria, injuring two service members.
March 18, 2022: Four US service members are killed when the MV-22 Osprey they are traveling in crashes during NATO training exercises in Norway.
June 8, 2022: Five US Marines die after an MV-22 Osprey crashes during a training mission Wednesday near Glamis, California.
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Compare to CH-46 and/or CH-53 accidents?
 
The three killed in Australia, Maj. Tobin Lewis, 37, Capt. Eleanor LeBeau, 29, Cpl. Spencer Collart, 21, RIP

Notable that though Osprey in Marine One fleet understand its deemed too dangerous for the Prsident to fly in.
 

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Cordy said:
The three killed in Australia, Maj. Tobin Lewis, 37, Capt. Eleanor LeBeau, 29, Cpl. Spencer Collart, 21, RIP

Notable that though Osprey in Marine One fleet understand its deemed too dangerous for the Prsident to fly in.
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Can you share an official source on the assertion that the President does not fly on the HMX-1 Ospreys for safety reasons?

Their MV-22s replaced the CH-46s and CH-53Ds which HMX-1 operated formerly, and neither of those types was a white top which carried the President either. The mission which the Ospreys play in the unit does not include flying the President themselves.

Rather than get carried away in the predictable rush that seems to follow every V-22 mishap (but strangely not the mishaps of other types), I figure it’s worth questioning some of these assertions that often get made without a ton of attribution.
 
I am not aware of any statements that the MV-22 is too dangerous for the President other than from ill-informed pundits. In fact, at least one, President Obama, flew in a standard MV-22 several times. The reality is that the aircraft interior was not satisfactory for all of the special equipment requirements and space for VIP seating. Also, the downwash and engine heat were deemed unacceptable by the White House Ground Keeper. The new Presidential helicopter will have special pads made so as not to burn the grass. It would be unseemly to have rose pedals all over the lawn.
 
jstar said:
CH-53 160 accidents 1967 thru Feb this year: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/H53
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Looks like 128 from 1975 on (I wanted to make sure I excluded Vietnam combat losses), an average of 2.67 accidents per year over the last 48 years.

The Osprey has had 13 fatal accidents since 1992, an average of 0.62 accidents per year over the last 30 years. But let's just go with the crashes and years since introduction in 2007, 10 crashes over the last 16 years. Interestingly enough, still 0.625 crashes annually.

Oh, yes, the V-22 is oh, so dangerous! [/sarcasm]
 
Scott Kenny said:
Looks like 128 from 1975 on (I wanted to make sure I excluded Vietnam combat losses), an average of 2.67 accidents per year over the last 48 years.

The Osprey has had 13 fatal accidents since 1992, an average of 0.62 accidents per year over the last 30 years. But let's just go with the crashes and years since introduction in 2007, 10 crashes over the last 16 years. Interestingly enough, still 0.625 crashes annually.

Oh, yes, the V-22 is oh, so dangerous! [/sarcasm]
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it would be a better comparison if the Osprey data came from the same database as the Ch-53's, which comes from aviation-safety.net.
Unfortunately that site does not have the Osprey
 
helmutkohl said:
it would be a better comparison if the Osprey data came from the same database as the Ch-53's, which comes from aviation-safety.net.
Unfortunately that site does not have the Osprey
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I found a number of reported Osprey accidents there. (Search for "V-22," not "Osprey")

45 accidents of all types since 1991 (1.41 accidents/year), 35 since 2007 (2.19 accidents/year). Still safer than an H-53.
 
The President doesn't fly in the MV-22 mostly because it would excavate the West Lawn at the White House. They looked at options before opting for another helicopter and there was no solution that was aesthetically acceptable.
 
IIRC Obama only flew in the MV-22, when he was still a Senator and a presidential candidate up to 2008. As POTUS 44 he only flew with the "White Tops".
 
Fair enough. I could be mistaken. Would not be the first time.
 
Grounding still in place (60 days past)

Unnamed mechanical failure identified

De-icing function suspected (impacts 44% of US Navy CMV-22B missions)

www.forbes.com

DoD’s Claim That It Has Found The V-22 Problem Raises More Questions

According to an Associated Press story, the Pentagon believes it has identified the fault that led to grounding the V-22 fleet. So far, it won’t divulge what that is.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
jstar said:
CH-53 160 accidents 1967 thru Feb 2023: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/H53
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Scott Kenny said:
Looks like 128 from 1975 on (I wanted to make sure I excluded Vietnam combat losses), an average of 2.67 accidents per year over the last 48 years.

The Osprey has had 13 fatal accidents since 1992, an average of 0.62 accidents per year over the last 30 years. But let's just go with the crashes and years since introduction in 2007, 10 crashes over the last 16 years. Interestingly enough, still 0.625 crashes annually.

Oh, yes, the V-22 is oh, so dangerous! [/sarcasm]
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And another CH-53E down (5 fatalities): https://abcnews.go.com/US/military-helicopter-5-marines-board-missing-en-route/story?id=107021601
 
I would like to know how they got a weather briefing that allowed them even to launch. Those particular mountains are notorious for being very fickle in poor weather conditions. However, getting a marginal weather briefing with "get-home-itis, has been a killer since humans began flying with regularity.
 
yasotay said:
I would like to know how they got a weather briefing that allowed them even to launch. Those particular mountains are notorious for being very fickle in poor weather conditions. However, getting a marginal weather briefing with "get-home-itis, has been a killer since humans began flying with regularity.
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Hell, marginal weather appearance with get-home-itis has been a killer since humans became a thing.
 
It seems they went way off their flight plan if reported info are accurate. Navigation error or defectuous equipment? (this is a comment on the recent CH-53E crash in California)
 
TomcatViP said:
It seems they went way off their flight plan if reported info are accurate. Navigation error or defectuous equipment? (this is a comment on the recent CH-53E crash in California)
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Source for their being off flight plan? Pine Valley isn't on a straight line from Creech to Miramar, but there are many possible reasons not to fly a straight line route from one to the other.
 
There deviation, if it was such, could have been an attempt to avoid going into IFR weather. There is nothing worse than losing visual reference in the mountains and transitioning to instruments.
I know. In the late 80's I launched from southern (West) Germany heading for Hanau, with a marginal weather brief and warning that the mountains would go IFR before nightfall. By the time we realized we would not make it through and turned around, the way back was closed as well. Spent the night in a small valley next to a farm. We cursed ourselves for our stupidity, and shot at mortality. We had been at the range for several weeks and the desire of home overrode common sense.
If this is what happened, it is a sad but well known circumstance.
 
yasotay said:
There deviation, if it was such, could have been an attempt to avoid going into IFR weather. There is nothing worse than losing visual reference in the mountains and transitioning to instruments.
I know. In the late 80's I launched from southern (West) Germany heading for Hanau, with a marginal weather brief and warning that the mountains would go IFR before nightfall. By the time we realized we would not make it through and turned around, the way back was closed as well. Spent the night in a small valley next to a farm. We cursed ourselves for our stupidity, and shot at mortality. We had been at the range for several weeks and the desire of home overrode common sense.
If this is what happened, it is a sad but well known circumstance.
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I lost a family friend in similar conditions, he was flying back from a Luscombe fly-in in California, had the pass he was planning on shooting through get fogged in. They found him on the mountain about 10kft up.

Edit: this was mid-80s, so it's had time to heal. Sure took a long time before I could sing his favorite songs again, though. "get-there-itis" is a fucking killer!
 
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The first three photos are of one of the early test models, with data recorders installed. This version underwent extensive testing at Patient River NAS. It is now at the museum there. The photos on the deck of the LHD were taken in 2012, and I include them as some detailed closeups. The final photos in flight were at an Air Show at Quonset Point NAS, Rhode Island.
 

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www.twz.com

CV-22 Osprey Crash In Japan Was Caused By Gearbox Failure

An accident investigation board has released its findings into the fatal crash of a CV-22 off the Japanese coast last year. An accident investigation board has released its findings into the fatal crash of a CV-22 off the Japanese coast last year.
www.twz.com www.twz.com
 

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