Imperial and Nationalist China Warship Projects

[cattalonX]

Yat Sen early design，with different secondary guns


Improved Yat Sen（No 717）

 

[gollevainen]

really cool find. Does it say anywehre, which yards ‎project these are?

 

[Tzoli]

I "love" how random people "stealing" online documents and "copyrighting" them by putting their online name on the image...
Never the less nice finds. The superstructure elements look British so I presume Vickers were the designer.

 

[Tzoli]

According to one site the half sister of Yat Sen would had been named Jen Shen or that was a different ship?

These ships are much closer to gunboats then to cruisers I think.

 

[Tzoli]

The Improved Yat Sen design looks Japanese. Can you link to the documents? There should be lengthy description pages as well.

 

[cattalonX]

I "love" how random people "stealing" online documents and "copyrighting" them by putting their online name on the image...
Never the less nice finds. The superstructure elements look British so I presume Vickers were the designer.

Weibo will automatically watermark the uploaded images

 

[cattalonX]

The Improved Yat Sen design looks Japanese. Can you link to the documents? There should be lengthy description pages as well.

I'm trying but haven't found it yet
The design is basically done by Chinese designers ，design based on smaller river gunboats
bigger and bigger

 

[Tzoli]

I meant this @scharnhorstzly fellow.
Do we know the origin of the weapons of Yat Sen? Was it Japanese or British? Both had 6", 5,5", 4,7", 4" and 3" guns. Though that 4" gun designation seems British. IJN only used two 10cm guns the Submarine equipped 10cm/50 Type 88 and the excellent AA gun the 10cm/65 Type 98

 

[cattalonX]

I meant this @scharnhorstzly fellow.
Do we know the origin of the weapons of Yat Sen? Was it Japanese or British? Both had 6", 5,5", 4,7", 4" and 3" guns. Though that 4" gun designation seems British. IJN only used two 10cm guns the Submarine equipped 10cm/50 Type 88 and the excellent AA gun the 10cm/65 Type 98

Well，In China, This watermark is usually provided by the platform ，not the user
and about Yat Sen‘s weapons
main gun，generally recorded as the German （or Netherland）150mm gun
But looks more like a Bofors 150mm gun

Polish 150mm Bofors Coastal Gun

AA guns


Probably also a Bofors AA gun
The tail gun is simple, the early design is a Japanese 120mm 3rd Year Type，Actually installed a 140mm 3rd Year Type

 

[cattalonX]

Well, I found it (to be exact, I asked scharnhorstzly for the keyword)

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯

aa.archives.gov.tw

Interesting, the ship with three 140 guns is called new Yat Sen
https://aa.archives.gov.tw/ELK/SearchDetailed?SystemID=MDAwMDE2MTc5NA==
seems to be italian

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯

aa.archives.gov.tw

a crazy fantasy plan，Post-war plan to build a large fleet in ten years（More likely to extort budget）


Seven 30,000-ton battleships， eight 12-inch guns(Red word changed to 14 inches)， speed28 knots（Red word changed to 30 knots）
Twelve 24,000-ton aircraft carriers，carry 30 aircraft （Red word changed to 50），speed 0 knots
Twelve 10,000-ton cruisers，Nine 8-inch guns，speed33knots
Thirty-six 1,500-ton destroyers，33knots（40knots） ten 21-inch torpedoes
Eighteen 1,000-ton submarines，12knots，six 21-inch torpedoes
Sixty 40-ton PT boats，60knots（changed to 50）two 21-inch torpedoes

 

[awhalen61]

Well, I found it (to be exact, I asked scharnhorstzly for the keyword)

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯

aa.archives.gov.tw

Interesting, the ship with three 140 guns is called new Yat Sen
https://aa.archives.gov.tw/ELK/SearchDetailed?SystemID=MDAwMDE2MTc5NA==
seems to be italian

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯

aa.archives.gov.tw

a crazy fantasy plan，Post-war plan to build a large fleet in ten years（More likely to extort budget）
View attachment 679361View attachment 679362

Seven 30,000-ton battleships， eight 12-inch guns(Red word changed to 14 inches)， speed28 knots（Red word changed to 30 knots）
Twelve 24,000-ton aircraft carriers，carry 30 aircraft （Red word changed to 50），speed 0 knots
Twelve 10,000-ton cruisers，Nine 8-inch guns，speed33knots
Thirty-six 1,500-ton destroyers，33knots（40knots） ten 21-inch torpedoes
Eighteen 1,000-ton submarines，12knots，six 21-inch torpedoes
Sixty 40-ton PT boats，60knots（changed to 50）two 21-inch torpedoes

Interesting, in that first line with Yat Sen-kai, a destroyer that was archived in the wrong spot?

 

[gollevainen]

Intresting looking vessel, is there any more info of it?

 

[Tzoli]

German designed Torpedo boat

 

[gollevainen]

obviously, thought from which year and yard

 

[Tzoli]

Very limited superstructure elements, Very small armament of 3 guns around 3-4" calibre one torpedo launcher twin or triple no visible AA armament, Curved boiler air intakes instead of ventilator shafts, I would say 1910's.

Edit: There is a stamp on the right side which states copyright law 1901.06.19 - 1910.05.22 so I presume between that timeframe.

 

[ssaa8836]

Very limited superstructure elements, Very small armament of 3 guns around 3-4" calibre one torpedo launcher twin or triple no visible AA armament, Curved boiler air intakes instead of ventilator shafts, I would say 1910's.

Edit: There is a stamp on the right side which states copyright law 1901.06.19 - 1910.05.22 so I presume between that timeframe.

The picture says this is a vessel for "Zollüberwachung", which is likely to be a patrol vessel for the Chinese Customs

 

[gollevainen]

34 kt custom ship with torpedoes... But yes there are curious details here, such as only one TT aparatus (twin or single?) and no nothing on the position behind the mainmast and what appears to be an Austrian flag?

 

[Tzoli]

34 kt custom ship with torpedoes... But yes there are curious details here, such as only one TT aparatus (twin or single?) and no nothing on the position behind the mainmast and what appears to be an Austrian flag?

No, the KuK flag has the Austrian colours and the Austrian coat of arms inside it with a crown:

The German KM flag had a single headed eagle:

On the other hand the Russian used the double headed eagle:

But they used a simple white flag with blue cross on it not a horizontal lined one.

 

[gollevainen]

You are right, only the general porpotions of that flag resemples the K.u.K ensing...
also the Kingdom of yugoslavian naval ensing could match, so that raises even more questions

 

[Tzoli]

Indeed, it matches it almost perfectly:

And as you said it raises more questions because Yugoslavia did not exist until post WW1 specifically it came to being in 1918!

 

[Dilandu]

And as you said it raises more questions because Yugoslavia did not exist until post WW1 specifically it came to being in 1918!

Hm... A weird idea, but... could it be Tb47 - type torpedo boat, refitted into something like fast patrol ship? Yugoslavia have several Tb47-class torpedo boats after World War I. It may be plausible that one of them was suggested for sale to China.

 

[Tzoli]

Not sure.
The Yugoslavs had received the ex KuK Kaiman class (4 ships) and ex Tb 74 class (8 ships)
The Kaiman was around 210 tons the Tb 74 was 260tons neither is close to the 600tons.
But it's not impossible that the Yugos found some plans in the shipyards or in the Pola Naval Arsenal archives. Will ask Erwin Sieche about this.

 

[gollevainen]

could it be reconstruction of german Torbedoboot for Yugoslavia? Germans sold Niobe after her decommisioning back in 20's and converted her to a training ship, and the armament was brought from Skoda, as germans werent allowed to sell it armed. Could this be a bypass attempt to sell torbedoboats as "custom inspection ship?" ...and later tried to offer it to china as well?

 

[iverson]

I "love" how random people "stealing" online documents and "copyrighting" them by putting their online name on the image...
Never the less nice finds. The superstructure elements look British so I presume Vickers were the designer.

There's no claim of copyrighting . It's more like a library stamp inside a book.

 

[cattalonX]

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯

aa.archives.gov.tw

Pocket submarine designed by amateurs

 

[cattalonX]

 

[World B4]

Bought this magazine
some of the mine torpedo school's pre-war ship plans, mostly torpedo boats like CMB and MAS, only a few larger support ships and China never got them
A German-built support ship was taken over by the German Navy and taken over by Denmark after World War II
Named Qi Jiguang（an ancient general famous for defeating Japanese pirates）
length 96.2 meters，full load displacement 2620 tons
Two 88mm main guns，Two twin 37mm guns and Four 20mm guns
Another one, built in Hong Kong, was captured by the Japanese and taken by the Dutch after the war
Named Tan Lun（also an ancient general）
length 223 feet Displacement 750 tons
Three 3-inch main guns
View attachment 672503View attachment 672504

Any information as to their names after completion?

 

[cattalonX]

Bought this magazine
some of the mine torpedo school's pre-war ship plans, mostly torpedo boats like CMB and MAS, only a few larger support ships and China never got them
A German-built support ship was taken over by the German Navy and taken over by Denmark after World War II
Named Qi Jiguang（an ancient general famous for defeating Japanese pirates）
length 96.2 meters，full load displacement 2620 tons
Two 88mm main guns，Two twin 37mm guns and Four 20mm guns
Another one, built in Hong Kong, was captured by the Japanese and taken by the Dutch after the war
Named Tan Lun（also an ancient general）
length 223 feet Displacement 750 tons
Three 3-inch main guns
View attachment 672503View attachment 672504

Any information as to their names after completion?

The German-built one is famous

Tanga (ship, 1937) - zxc.wiki

de.zxc.wiki

Tan Lun has very little information

 

[World B4]

Chien 1 torpedo boat

CHIEN 1 torpedo boat

 

[World B4]

The Tung Chi was a training ship that was originally laid down as the transport Chien Chung

TUNG CHI unprotected cruiser (1896)

The Fu An was a cruiser converted before completion into a transport

FU AN unprotected cruiser (1897)

The latter is of particular interest to me, I'd love to see the original design

 

[Grey Havoc]

Don't think this one has been posted yet, a Coastal Defence Ship design from 1916:

Don't have much backstory or design history to this one, only raw data and that it was made by Armstrong. It's a large and slow CDS for China, armed with 4x15" guns, 8x4,7" guns.

Unbuilt/Unfinished Coastal-Defense Ships - Shipbucket

 

[Brickmuppet]

Don't think this one has been posted yet, a Coastal Defence Ship design from 1916:
View attachment 684687

Don't have much backstory or design history to this one, only raw data and that it was made by Armstrong. It's a large and slow CDS for China, armed with 4x15" guns, 8x4,7" guns.

Unbuilt/Unfinished Coastal-Defense Ships - Shipbucket

Backstory attached.

 

[Dilandu]

Don't think this one has been posted yet, a Coastal Defence Ship design from 1916:

Ah, the famous Edmund Backhouse's "mini-superdreadnought") An inhteresting attempt to revive the coastal defense ship class in new era)

 

[World B4]

Named Tan Lun

Are any of the plans and ships shown the Tan Lun? Sorry I can't read Chinese

 

[cattalonX]

Named Tan Lun

Are any of the plans and ships shown the Tan Lun? Sorry I can't read Chinese

Tan Lun was builting in Hong Kong and captured by the Japanese，when the ship is not finished yet
Japanese finished the ship，renamed it as Gyosei Maru.
When the Japanese surrendered, the ship was located in Indonesia and was taken over by the Dutch，named Luymes

 

[MrMemerMan]

Here are the original files on the Taiwanese archive found by a Japanese friend of mine, to save you have to right click and wait a few seconds to start (their servers ain't fast) or left click to view:

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯

aa.archives.gov.tw

國家檔案資訊網-首頁

ææªè³è¨æ´å管çæåå¹³å°ãå家æªæ¡è³è¨ç¶²ãæ°ç¾ç«¯

aa.archives.gov.tw

But I've uploaded them on my google drive account for easier download:

Designs for China - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Could someone point me to which document the information for that 6,000 ton Cruiser by Netherlands/Germany is. I have been struggling locating it.

 

[Tzoli]

You have to go through them but the Uraga Shipyard's offer is here:

https://imgur.io/a/xxLapNZ

 

[Torsionbar]

This is my list, which only includes specific designs. The Navy Department has a huge plan every year, which needs to be sorted out. Thanks for your redraws.

https://www.zjsnrwiki.com/wiki/%E8%BF%91%E4%BB%A3%E5%A4%96%E5%9B%BD%E5%AF%B9%E5%8D%8E%E5%86%9B%E5%94%AE%E8%88%B0%E8%89%87%E6%96%B9%E6%A1%88%E6%B1%87%E6%80%BB

 

[cattalonX]

 

[Hood]

Not pre-PLAN, belongs in another thread.

Huh? Pretty sure a ship designed in 1914 pre-dates the formation of the People's Liberation Army Navy by about 30 years...

I have renamed the thread anyway to make it clear this thread is for pre-Communist Republic era ones.