Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects

overscan (PaulMM) said:
Yes, assuming the publisher is on board, but likely after I visit the UK in December 2025. Hoping to take a few photos of the P.1121 parts at Brooklands.
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Good! Because I definitely intend to buy a copy when the second edition comes out. I assume that on this trip you'll also be visiting the Saunders Roe archive for documentation on the SR-177?
 
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NMaude said:
Good! Because I definitely intend to buy a couple when the second edition comes out. I assume that on this trip you'll also be visiting the Saunders Roe archive for documentation on the SR-177?
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I've failed multiple times to get anywhere on it, but if I get a response I will certainly do so.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
I've failed multiple times to get anywhere on it, but if I get a response I will certainly do so.
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Let's hope you succeed this time, I'd love to see a detailed book about the SR-177 published (Especially if it has nice cutaway diagrams).

Edit: Derek Wood's excellent "Project Cancelled" books (I must get around to obtaining a copy of his 3rd edition).
 
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Apologies for going off topic, Id sooo love to see a volume on Saunders Roe's P.177 rocket fighter

in regard, Lockheed's F-104G was no more than an afterword re. SR. P.177, taking place after the latter programme was cancelled
From what little i have found at TNA., the P.177 export brochures seems to be company led pitches and proposals (i am unsure if even actually considered by FGR., Netherlands and Japan ?)
 
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CJGibson said:
There's a few helicopter books to shift before that gets Greenlit.
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You need a Chinook for that.

TsrJoe said:
From what little i have found at TNA., the P.177 export brochures seems to be company led pitches and proposals (i am unsure if even actually considered by FGR., Netherlands and Japan ?)
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Agreed, message from Bonn was "I'll call you - after I've banked this suitcase of $100 bills that happened to land in the boot of my Mercedes."
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Australia looked at a brochure - that's all in their own National Archives. Naval version I think.
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Yes they did in April-June 1956. It's an oddity that the P.177N was offered against the F-104 for the RAAF's Sabre replacement by 1958 (Saro later sent a 'ground attack variant' brochure), perhaps the deflected thrust was seen as a bonus for field performance? The RAAF concluded it was a greater interceptor, but lacked the range to escort fighters, lacked an effective ground attack capability (no guns) and couldn't meet the 1958 date (as we now know, the RAAF didn't buy the F-104 either).
There is an interesting comment that Maurice Brennan didn't consider the aircraft to be an F-104 competitor but that Saro's Sales Director told him to pitch it that way.
It was a serious consideration, but just wasn't what they were looking for at that particular time.

When you take the divergence of internal opinion within Saro about whether it was an competitor with the F-104, and the internal MoS/Air Staff comments that offering Bloodhounds or Blue Envoys to Germany might be the better choice for fast-acting air defence rather than the P.177 you start to wonder if there was a solid marketing tagline for the P.177.
 
Saro did try to multirole the P.177, but frankly it was too little too late.

Had the RAF defined this was going to succeed the Venom/Vampire fleet rather than retread Hunters....then Saro would've already done much more work on that before these brochures were produced.

But then the whole SR.54 (can't remember number will look up and correct) been closer to F.177. Then this would all have been different.
 

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