Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yes, once I get a chance.

 

[robunos]

Oh, that's just cruel...

:'(

I can send you a pdf copy, she'll never know

...and no, he ain't getting a pdf, so can wait until Christmas like I have to with American Secret Projects..

It's no biggie, see, the deal is, if I want it now, I have to pay for it, but if I wait, it's a prezzie...

cheers,
Robin.

 

[CJGibson]

To order a copy of Hawker P.1103 and P.1121 - Camms' Last Fighter Projects, please send your Paypal payments to:

blue.envoy.services@googlemail.com

Any queries, please drop me a line at the same email address.

Costs:

Single copies are £11.95 each

UK postage will be £1.75 (total = £13.70)
EU Postage will be £5.30 (total = £17.25)
USA Postage will be £7.60 (total = £19.55)
Aus/NZ postage from UK will be £8.00. (£19.95)

I will, of course, combine postage and try to minimise the postage costs where possible.

Copies of Air Staff and AEW, Admiralty and AEW and Vickers VC10 - AEW, Pofflers and Other Unbuilt Variants are also available at £9.95 each

I aim for same day posting when I'm at home.

Many thanks

Chris

 

[CJGibson]

Orders received by 1600Z have been posted first class, hopefully arrive tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone who ordered.

Chris

 

[newsdeskdan]

Orders received by 1600Z have been posted first class, hopefully arrive tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone who ordered.

Chris

Astonishingly swift delivery - thank you Mr Gibson!

 

[PMN1]

Got my copy today.....reduced work output tomorrow..

 

[Sundog]

Ordered. Waiting is the hardest part. But it's something to look forward to as well.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hopefully the transatlantic post is speedy.

Thanks to everyone who has purchased so far, and its very pleasing to get feedback. I've met people with additional information on the subject already through publishing it, so nothing is ever definitive, but its nice to have delivered it nonetheless. Pulishing is like so many cancelled aircraft projects - "the best" is the enemy of "good enough".

 

[uk 75]

Paul

Loving the book. It is like being in 1965 again with my favourite annual.

I have found the John Taylor article from Meccano Magazine which may interest
you and others here.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/adult.user01/My%20Documents/Downloads/MM-World%20Beaters%20that%20Werent%20(p28)%20(April%201967)%20(created%202012-11-13%20131116).pdf

 

[uk 75]

May be this will work

 

[elmayerle]

Hopefully the transatlantic post is speedy.

Thanks to everyone who has purchased so far, and its very pleasing to get feedback. I've met people with additional information on the subject already through publishing it, so nothing is ever definitive, but its nice to have delivered it nonetheless. Pulishing is like so many cancelled aircraft projects - "the best" is the enemy of "good enough".

Mine was quite speedy, you mailed on Monday and I received them on Friday.

 

[Jemiba]

Ordered last Thirsday, was told, that it arrived today. The envelope slightly ripped,
but content ok and unscathed. Waiting unpatiently to read it now !

 

[lark]

I have the book since this noon...
The best I read about the Hawker P.1103 & 1121 since I first saw
this designs in "Project Cancelled" long time ago...

Hats off gentlemen!

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Has arrived down under and is very impressive. Like the subject matter the book is big, quite a handful. Very nice paper with a great bond. 64 pages of this thickness with only two staples and being likely to be much thumbed through indicates the actual book may not last long. Not really a criticism but perhaps a good reason to buy two copies!

Opening the cover and wow there is a full page cutaway on the inside. Very detailed. It must be from a CAD with those lines. Out Badrocking Badrocke! Read the first chapter and it is very well written. Lots of data, well described and enlightened with a few nice quips here and there. The author should wield his pencil in anger more often.

Just given the rest a quick leaf through and very impressed by the high density of artwork. Original Hawker drawings, paintings, 3D models, photos, three view recreations and more of that great high detail technical drawings like in the inside cover cutaway. Great to see a very detailed chapter on technical elements of the P.1121 design and its systems. Even with Red Hebe internals! The book ends with loads of more technical drawings of the production standard P.1103 and 1121s. With cross sections, armament options and the inside end page is a very detailed cockpit layout; like the cutaway with a detailed key.

My only grievance is that there are 2.5 newly made 3D illustrations with the subject matter backlit. Sure the pictures in question may look gorgeous and there are no doubt artistic merits for such backlit decisions but there is a basic principal at hand. Backlit imagery and defence and aviation just don't mix dangnamit!

ProjectTech is really getting into its stride.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Thanks Abraham. Barrie Hygate deserves a lot of credit for his outstanding work on the drawings.

 

[lark]

Used this weekend to read the book profoundly...
It conferms my first impression...

I was pariculary surprised by the information in the the GOR 339 chapter
and the wealth of illustrations.
Most impressive to me , the color artwork on the inside cover of the Naval Strike variant..

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Used this weekend to read the book profoundly...
It conferms my first impression...

I was pariculary surprised by the information in the the GOR 339 chapter
and the wealth of illustrations.
Most impressive to me , the color artwork on the inside cover of the Naval Strike variant..

I really loved that painting, Luciano did a great job on that, however it wasn't appropriate for the cover as it was a variant not the standard P.1121. I put it on the inside cover rather than in the main body so it could be big enough to appreciate it. The GOR.339 stuff wasn't initially part of my intention to cover but it was very linked to (and parallel with) later P.1121 developments.

There may be an article with a bit more detail on P.1129 in the future.

 

[lark]

Aha ! lookin' already foreward to it..

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I thought that painting (naval takeoff) must have been from a period brouchure by Hawker when i first flipped through the pub. Very well done and nice to see that format (painting) considering the time era of the original product.

Different eras had different favoured commercial illustration practices. Like the late 1940s early 50s with heavily retouched b&w shaded and the late 70s early 80s with cartoon like b&w line drawings.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I thought that painting (naval takeoff) must have been from a period brouchure by Hawker when i first flipped through the pub. Very well done and nice to see that format (painting) considering the time era of the original product.

Luciano was mostly inspired by old Airfix box-art, which is what he was aiming to achieve a homage to with his paintings. I was lucky enough to benefit from his talent for my book. He was already painting this kind of thing for his own personal satisfaction.

Different eras had different favoured commercial illustration practices. Like the late 1940s early 50s with heavily retouched b&w shaded and the late 70s early 80s with cartoon like b&w line drawings.

I agree - and, while computer graphics have their place and can be very nice, there is something to be said for the art of real painting too.

 

[Nick Sumner]

Also really enjoying the book. The extra info posted on this board is very useful too.

 

[SteveO]

Well done Paul, another excellent addition to the Project Tech Profile series. I must admit that the P.1103 and P.1121 never caught my imagination like the TSR2 and P.1154 did but I still thoroughly enjoyed reading about them and the difficulties of producing an operational weapon system at the time. Hats off to the impressive illustrations by Barrie, Luciano, Rob and Peter, inspiring stuff.

Good job and what's next?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I am glad you liked it, I enjoyed making it. Its just been reviewed in Jets Magazine this month.

have started research into another book on a contemporary of the P.1121. Hopefully less than 8 years to finish this one

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I am glad you liked it, I enjoyed making it. Its just been reviewed in Jets Magazine this month.

have started research into another book on a contemporary of the P.1121. Hopefully less than 8 years to finish this one

Mmmm... I hope this subject may be from Vectis...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I am glad you liked it, I enjoyed making it. Its just been reviewed in Jets Magazine this month.

have started research into another book on a contemporary of the P.1121. Hopefully less than 8 years to finish this one

Mmmm... I hope this subject may be from Vectis...

Perhaps...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Perhaps.

Awesome. Appropriately in this case, as Orwell used to say: "double plus good." Probably should end all the hints there.

 

[Trident]

Just got my copy, and from what I've already seen I must echo everybody else's comments - great work, including the superb drawings!

In fact, when I opened the mailbox and saw the envelope, I was so excited I promptly locked myself out of my flat

 

[DamienB]

Catching up with news... duly ordered!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Catching up with news... duly ordered!

Thanks Damien - I bought your book so fair's fair

Recent review by C G 'Jeff' Jefford in the RAF Historical Society Journal is attached.

 

[DamienB]

I've spent the last hour dipping in and out of it, must make time to go cover to cover.

But initial impressions are that this is a fantastic bit of work, really delighted to see some of the stuff that I dug through (all too briefly) when researching my TSR2 book finally get the treatment it deserved. Pleased that it is not an uncritical love-in!

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Thanks DamienB, I must say your own book was a helpful catalyst to get me motivated to complete it I tried to be objective and accurate as possible, and avoid the Project Cancelled "we should have built it all and they would all have been brilliant" approach.

Don't suppose you have another book on the go? I've started on my next one.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Review from Chris Farara of the Hawker Association.

Hawker P.1103 & P.1121 - Camm’s Last Fighter Projects by Paul Martel-Mead and Barrie Hygate.

This very well written book not only tells the story of these two projects in considerable detail based on diligent research into original documents and interviews with survivors from the period but also gives an insight into the workings of Camm, his Project Office, the Hawker and HSA management, the engine companies and the various Ministry departments involved. The reader feels that the writer, mainly Paul Martel-Mead, has a good technical grasp of his subject and an understanding of the company and government politics of the day. Long-lost photographs of the mock-up, intake model and prototype under construction have been included as have many original Hawker project drawings augmented by the nowadays essential artists impressions of what might have been.

Also, Barrie Hygate has contributed several clear general arrangement and cockpit drawings. The development problems of the de Havilland Gyron supersonic turbojet are described as are those of the alternative Olympus and Conway engines.

Closely related projects also covered are the P.1116, P.1122, P.1123 and the P.1129, the troubled gestation of the latter making fascinating reading. A comprehensive technical description of the P.1121, its avionics, engines and weapons are included and an appendix covers the wind tunnel models, intake models and systems test rigs. Model kits available on the market are described in another appendix. This handsome soft-cover book is published by Blue Envoy Press (ISBN 978-0-956195159) and with a cover price of £11.99 and is well worth every penny.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Interesting review in The Aviation Historian by Roy Braybrook, a Hawker insider and well-known author.

Hawker P.1103 & P.1121: Camm’s Last Fighter Projects
By Paul Martell-Mead and Barrie Hygate; Blue Envoy Press
(order via e-mail to blue.envoy.services@googlemail.com);

8½in x 11in (215mm x 280mm); softback; 64 pages, illustrated; £11.95 + p&p; ISBN 978-0-95619-515-9

HAWKER AIRCRAFT originated as a rebranded Sopwith Aviation, developing an unbroken series of successful fighter designs that could trace its ancestry back to before the First World War. This book describes Hawker’s efforts in the 1950s to produce projects that responded to RAF operational requirements OR.329, for an all-weather interceptor, and OR.339 for a long-range strike aircraft.

These contests were “won” by a Fairey project, killed off by Duncan Sandys’ infamous 1957 Defence White Paper, and the BAC TSR.2, cancelled owing to cost overruns in 1965. This reviewer (who worked in the Hawker project office for several months in 1956 and — after national service — from 1958 until 1978) regrets that this book does not throw a little more light on the little-known Fairey project.

Nevertheless, the book is well researched regarding the P.1121 and its avionics and armament. I was blown away by the amount of material unearthed, and the three-view drawings by Barrie Hygate are excellent. This day-today history was made possible by the authors gaining access to the so-called “Camm diaries”, previously alleged to have been lost in a fire.

As Hawker’s chief designer, Sir Sydney bore the responsibility for overseeing projects and approving them for submission to the Ministry (or to the Hawker board for private-venturing, as with the P.1127). Preliminary design was then in the hands of three project engineers — Ralph Hooper, John Fozard and Ron Williams. All were young, relatively inexperienced and impatiently ambitious. Each was (in my view) to demonstrate a special talent: Hooper for design development; Fozard for teaching aircraft design and Williams for preliminary design.

Hooper is now rightly honoured for his outstanding career as “the father of the P.1127/ Harrier” and subsequently for directing the development of the Hawk. Since Hooper is the only survivor of the trio, this book rests heavily on his version of events, possibly to the detriment of Fozard and Williams. His views may (understandably) be coloured by Camm’s well-known grudging approval of the P.1127.

This book arguably gives a wrong impression of Camm, indisputably the greatest fighter designer that Britain ever produced. Sir Sydney had a natural talent for design and a decades long track record of successes, a combination that his “young gentlemen of the project office” could only dream of.

It may be, as the book suggests, that the wartime Camm was difficult to work for. He may well have liked to “ham it up” in the drawing office as the outspoken designer-genius. If this was his way of inspiring great work, it succeeded. Nonetheless, quoting his sayings out of context is rather misleading. He was not the geriatric obstacle-to-progress portrayed here.

If anyone concludes that Camm had “lost it” in the 1950s, consider his 1960s reaction on seeing the first drawing of a tandem-seat version of the P.1127: “That thing will go ahead over my dead body!”. Sir Sydney was right, in both his forecast and his clear-headed assessment of a misconceived design.

ROY BRAYBROOK

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Review in this month's Aeroplane.

 

[Archibald]

HAWKER AIRCRAFT originated as a rebranded Sopwith Aviation,

Sopwith and Hawker related ? I never knew that. Talk about an interesting legacy.

 

[Arjen]

From wiki:

Upon the liquidation of the Sopwith company, Tom Sopwith himself, together with Harry Hawker, Fred Sigrist and Bill Eyre, immediately formed H.G. Hawker Engineering, forerunner of the Hawker Aircraft and Hawker Siddeley lineage. Sopwith was Chairman of Hawker Siddeley until his retirement.

 

[gatoraptor]

A bit off-topic, but similarly Gloster was descended from the Royal Aircraft Factory. Compare the vertical tails of the S.E.5 and Gloster Grebe and you'll see what I mean.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

A bit off-topic, but similarly Gloster was descended from the Royal Aircraft Factory. Compare the vertical tails of the S.E.5 and Gloster Grebe and you'll see what I mean.

Pretty sure that was just Henry Folland who joined Gloster from the Royal Aircraft Factory rather than a company connection per se.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

And if you don't have a copy, there's one on Ebay for £0.99 right now:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hawker-P-1103-P-1121-Camm-s-Last-Fighter-Projects-Barrie-Hygate-Scarce-/381902965109?hash=item58eb30c975:g:HzIAAOSw241YZPMy

If you don't get it, then Chris still has a couple left. Stocks are low!

 

[tyles]

Are there any copies of this book still available anywhere?