Germany To Boost Defense Spending?

TomS said:

I'd expect a NATO purchase of E-7 (or something similar on an Airbus airframe) to replace the current NATO E-3 force, eventually. Germany has no particular need for AWACS outside of the NATO area, so I don't see them wanting their own aircraft.
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Yeah, I tend to agree...but it was fun to through the thought into the mix
 
Most probably rest of the Tornado fleet will be also replaced with Eurofighters:

WirtschaftsWoche

www.wiwo.de www.wiwo.de

„But now the Eurofighter is about to make a comeback. The aviation group Airbus expects that the Bundeswehr will soon order almost 60 Eurofighters - a good 40 more than previously planned. "We are assuming that the successor to the Tornado fighter aircraft will completely replace the current 93 with 93 new machines," corporate circles told WirtschaftsWoche. "Everything else would be difficult to convey after the experience of the Ukraine war."
 
It made sense for the RAF to replace the Fin with Typhoon..I am sure the Luftwaffe will find the same. Shame they can't carry US nukes in RAF and BLW service.
 
From a few days ago:
www.telegraph.co.uk

'National laughing stock': How Germany is spending €100bn to transform its military

While fighting rages to the east, the days of its soldiers using pretend guns are over
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

Analysts predict Berlin will focus much of its investment on domestic companies such as Düsseldorf-based arms manufacturer Rheinmetall and Nuremberg-based Diehl Group, which makes aircrafts and parts. Defence analyst Francis Tusa predicts up to 80pc of the spending will be reserved for German corporations.

“The Germans will have to bend over backwards to show this money is going to German companies. They've said they're buying a new batch of the Puma infantry combat vehicle for about €3bn,” he says.

“Rheinmetall has been exporting its goods from its subsidiaries, but it will take time to ramp up. If you've scaled your domestic production for a low level, it takes you some time to do that. But Rheinmetall is an incredibly agile company and it's very aggressive.”

The remaining purchases, such as tank ammunition and new fighter jets, are likely to be from manufacturers in the US, France and Britain. Tusa points to European missile maker MBDA as one company that could secure more business. Its Meteor air-to-air missile was already tested by Germany last year.

He believes there will also be a big focus on maintaining the equipment Germany already has, and retooling it to prepare for active use.

"They need to go back to their maintenance contractors and say: you know we were happy with having only six of these helicopters being available? We actually need twenty-six available," says Tusa.

Currently, the German army has 701 aircraft, six submarines, 1,340 tanks and personnel carriers and around 54,000 soldiers.
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Its long lack of aggression in expanding its military budget is not only a result of its past, according to Tusa, but also for economic reasons.

"During the Cold War, German defence spending was quite high, because they understood that they couldn't rely on everyone else," he says. "But after the fall of the Berlin Wall, they just cut everything.”

“Ultimately they just wanted to spend more on social programmes. That was a choice."

As Russian missiles reap devastation on cities in Ukraine, Germany is now taking a very different path.
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The big item in the 100bn EUR boost to spending for me, wasn't the F-35 or Typhoon announcements, it was the 20bn EUR that was set aside for munitions...that's a colossal amount. Particularly as for some of the new purchases (additional Typhoon and F-35) they should already have a lot of the compatible munitions available in stock (JDAM, IRIS-T, AMRAAM etc.).

It really does indicate that the German war stocks are absolutely threadbare...
 
I posted this elsewhere but thought it might be worth discussing...

What will be interesting will be which munitions the German's will choose for their F-35 fleet. They've got 20bn EUR available from the 100bn EUR funding boost to spend on munitions (which gives you an idea how depleted German stocks are...). A lot will go on Heer munitions, probably a small amount for the Navy, some on SAM systems and maybe, just maybe some munitions for UAV's..but they're going to need some for the F-35's and new build Typhoon...

They won't just be toting their B-61/12 all the time...

So the German Air Force weapons that are compatible with F-35...

AIM-120 Amraam (believe its B and C-7 or 8) - By the time F-35 arrives the B variant will be life expired and near obsolete however.

And errrr...thats it folks...they do also have Paveway II and LJDAM GBU-54 in stock for Tornado, but neither has been cleared for F-35, or appear to be on the list...they'll probably be retained for Typhoon.

I don't think the German's will go to the expense of getting IRIS-T or Taurus KEPD-350 integrated for a fleet of 30-35 aircraft. Current users of some of those systems have shown little interest in paying for it, so unless they club together to fund the integration effort and then join a very long list of weapons right at the end of the list. That means zero chance of any of them being integrated prior to 2030+ even if the decision was made today.

So the German's need a compatible WVR missile, they need a freefall guided munition and probably other munitions...otherwise they're just sat around waiting for the Big Red Button to be pushed..

WVR Missile
- A choice of AIM-9X or ASRAAM Blk VI (also called CSP). - No idea what they'll pick, they favoured a more manoeuverable missile than either 9X or Asraam. But they did also manfacture 9L back in the day. They might pick 9X as its closer conceptually to IRIS-T or they may look for a complimentary capability with ASRAAM. ASRAAM being made by MBDA, and also being compatible with Typhoon may swing it...

Freefall PGM
- You'd have to think a JDAM variant would be in the front position here given they already use GBU-54 LJDAM 1,000lb, but that isn't on the F-35 integration timeline... Another option is the GBU-12 as they already use Paveway variants, a 500lb LGB with GPS. Don't think it would take a lot to make GBU-12 compatible with Typhoon...but then that also means that Paveway IV from the UK becomes a possibility, with zero integration costs for Typhoon. It's already integrated with Typhoon and F-35...Or they might just buy new whichever JDAM are integrated on F-35 and leave it at that, they're a comparatively cheap munition to buy, but that means no moving target capability..

Other Munitions
- Smaller munitions - Also on the cards I suspect. Bit of a gap for the German's, they have looked at Brimstone before with real interest and have a short term solution of Laser Sidewinder (LaGS) for Tornado (and potentially Typhoon I guess). SDB1, SDB2 (Storm Breaker) or Spear would be the potential candidates. Possible that Spear might get the nod here as it will also be compatible with Typhoon and the Typhoon ECR concept was shown with Spear-EW mounted...
- SEAD/DEAD capability - The German's were developing Armiger, a ramjet powered ARM, a while ago. It got cancelled. But they like ARM's and need to replace HARM. They have ordered AARGM like Italy in small quantities, but like Italy they're in a bind, AARGM is not integrated on Typhoon or F-35. They're looking at Typhoon as the ECR replacement so it might be that they integrate AARGM in conjunction with Italy (AARGM is not integrated on F-35 and probably never will be as US interest seems to be on AARGM-ER) or Spear & Spear EW get the nod. But I wouldn't discount an AARGM-ER buy for F-35. They could also look at Meteor ARM variants (Both UK and MBDA are investigating this, but its unclear if it relates to the Meteor or AESA equipped JNAAM variant). Again compatibility with both fleets could swing it. Either way costly choices await them, either integrating AARGM with Typhoon for ECR or buying new weapons for F-35...no easy answers on this one.
- Longer ranged munitions - One of the lessons from Ukraine...but the current weapon (Taurus KEPD-350) is very unlikely to be integrated, which realistically leaves JSM and JASSM. Not sure what they'd pick here. JSM would give them a decent air launched AShM capability that they've lacked since Kormoran 2 was retired, for the Baltic (and outside of Marte-ER for Kuwait, no-one has shown any real interest in adding AShM to Typhoon). JASSM gives them serious land attack capability and range, with the promise of LRASM as well. Honestly no idea, bit of solidarity with Norway or go US..

Additional Munitions
They will get Meteor by default, c2027, as they're purchasing that, in not massive numbers, for Typhoon (I suspect that order will get a big boost presently) so it looks like they're well covered on the BVR missile front.

They could just got the easy route and procure all US weapons, but that leaves them with compatability problems with their main combat fleet of Typhoon in the most part and German defence procurement is a very political issue, they'll want some German involvement...does Diehl have enough clout to get IRIS-T and MBDA for KEPD-350 on F-35...not sure they'd want to pay the cost for such a small fleet, but with the German's you never know...would have thought MBDA would have wanted to concentrate on FCASW.
 
SO, lots to cover there. Just a few items:

1) I thought that Germany bought the 500-pound Laser JDAM (GBU-54/38), which is in the process of being integrated on the F-35
Source: https://www.airforcemag.com/weapons-platforms/gbu-54-ldjam/ and https://www.defencetalk.com/military/forums/t/luftwaffe-news-and-updates.8025/

2) AARGM-ER is being integrated on the F-35A as of late 2020. If Germany opts for this, the direct attack SIAW seems like a logical complement for DEAD.
Source: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/rf-analog/article/14188234/radar-electronic-warfare-ew-missile

BUT

2a) In addition (or as an alternative) to AARGM-ER, there's an interesting possibility. Meteor is claimed to be adaptable to SEAD as a software-only modification, That seems like it would be ideal for Typhoon ECR, since it could carry Meteor-ARM on the existing fuselage stations and save the wings for jammer pods, SPEAR-EW, or DEAD weapons.

3) WVR AAM -- would it be cheaper to buy a specialized inventory of missiles for F-35 or integrate the existing inventory? Kind of a coin toss, it seems to me. Though IRIS-T is supposed to be directly compatible with any Sidewinder platform, so it should be a pretty simple integration for external carriage.

4) SPEAR -- this seems very likely, especially if Typhoon ECR goes forward with SPEAR-EW.
 
TomS said:
SO, lots to cover there. Just a few items:

1) I thought that Germany bought the 500-pound Laser JDAM (GBU-54/38), which is in the process of being integrated on the F-35
Source: https://www.airforcemag.com/weapons-platforms/gbu-54-ldjam/ and https://www.defencetalk.com/military/forums/t/luftwaffe-news-and-updates.8025/

2) AARGM-ER is being integrated on the F-35A as of late 2020. If Germany opts for this, the direct attack SIAW seems like a logical complement for DEAD.
Source: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/rf-analog/article/14188234/radar-electronic-warfare-ew-missile

BUT

2a) In addition (or as an alternative) to AARGM-ER, there's an interesting possibility. Meteor is claimed to be adaptable to SEAD as a software-only modification, That seems like it would be ideal for Typhoon ECR, since it could carry Meteor-ARM on the existing fuselage stations and save the wings for jammer pods, SPEAR-EW, or DEAD weapons.

3) WVR AAM -- would it be cheaper to buy a specialized inventory of missiles for F-35 or integrate the existing inventory? Kind of a coin toss, it seems to me. Though IRIS-T is supposed to be directly compatible with any Sidewinder platform, so it should be a pretty simple integration for external carriage.

4) SPEAR -- this seems very likely, especially if Typhoon ECR goes forward with SPEAR-EW.
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1) - Actually you're right, my mistake, thought it was the 1,000lber that they bought. Can't imagine their stocks are that massive either way, so it might well be a simple increase of the stockpile.

2) - They've bought AARGM, which could end up being a redundant item, for both them and the Italian's, when Tornado ECR retires. Might not be a big deal because although they're a very, very expensive item I don't think Italy or Germany bought large numbers (apparently the Italian order was for 9..). They could probably sell them back to the US, I'm sure the USN would appreciate some discounted ARM's, and get something new. AARGM-ER makes sense for F-35, and for the nuclear mission (don't think they'll carry more than 1 B-61), but its not integrated on Typhoon which they're looking to have as their main ECR platform, but neither is AARGM. Some major expense there if they want to, and you have to wonder if its worth it if they only purchase a limited number of munitions. It was easier with Tornado as it was already set up for HARM.

2a) - MoD and MBDA were talking about this at DSEi 2019, but it wasn't clear if it was in relation to Meteor itself or JNAAM with its AESA seeker. As a secondary capability to its main role it would be fantastic. A capability that the UK lost with the retirement of ALARM. Mind you I'm in favour of a UK buy of ECR as well...

3) - The Italian's have already gone down the AIM-9X route as they were in a similar quandary for F-35 (Italian industry does have a minor role in 9X as well). Norway have too, although they're repurposed their 100+redundant IRIS-T as a short ranged SAM. ASRAAM was also compatible with Sidewinder rails but needed substantial integration, I don't think IRIS-T would be any different in that regard, particularly the helmet sighting element. With just the Greeks left as soon to be F-35 users who also use IRIS-T I can't see the German's paying for it, the Greeks are traditionally happy with a mish-mash of systems as well.

4) - You'd have to think Spear's compatibility with Typhoon would give it an edge, the German's were keen on Brimstone at one point (and columns of Russian armour needing to be decimated doesn't seem as fanciful as it once was..). The potential for Spear-EW would also seem to be compelling for what the German's want to do. SpearGlide is also being developed (according to MBDA), larger warhead like SDB2 and no engine, same size, shape and weight for easy integration though. Would love to see a cheaper Spear variant to seal the deal though, a Spear SDB1 equivalent (GPS/INS only, no engine) at a decent price could really fill out the 'family' along with the Glide variant.
 
Here's an announcement about the arming of German's Heron TP UAVs.

Curious to see what Germany decides to use for armament. Supposedly, India also ordered armed Heron, but details are pretty scarce.

(Translation via Google):

The Budget Committee of the Bundestag approved the armament of the Heron TP today. A total of around 150 million euros are earmarked for armament, training and maintenance. In this way we are improving the protection of soldiers on deployments abroad.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1511758982762962957
View: https://twitter.com/BMVg_Bundeswehr/status/1511758982762962957
 
TomS said:
Here's an announcement about the arming of German's Heron TP UAVs.

Curious to see what Germany decides to use for armament. Supposedly, India also ordered armed Heron, but details are pretty scarce.

(Translation via Google):

The Budget Committee of the Bundestag approved the armament of the Heron TP today. A total of around 150 million euros are earmarked for armament, training and maintenance. In this way we are improving the protection of soldiers on deployments abroad.
Click to expand...
https://twitter.com/x/status/1511758982762962957
View: https://twitter.com/BMVg_Bundeswehr/status/1511758982762962957
Click to expand...

Looks like IAI are going to get an order for Sledgehammer...

 
timmymagic said:
Looks like IAI are going to get an order for Sledgehammer...

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Interesting... was not aware of that munition before! Nimrod is also a possibility (or both, of course - though most articles imply the order comprises a single weapon type).

For the German Heron-TPs, my money is on some member of the Rafael Spike family though. The missile is already in German service, and one source that I can't find anymore suggested there is a requirement for operator-in-the-loop guidance. I suppose SAL would sort of qualify, but to me that indicates a wire or RF datalink and the aviation-capable second-generation Spike-LR/ER/NLOS derivatives fit nicely.
 
Trident said:
For the German Heron-TPs, my money is on some member of the Rafael Spike family though. The missile is already in German service, and one source that I can't find anymore suggested there is a requirement for operator-in-the-loop guidance. I suppose SAL would sort of qualify, but to me that indicates a wire or RF datalink and the aviation-capable second-generation Spike-LR/ER/NLOS derivatives fit nicely.
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I'd be very surprised if it was. 150m EUR isn't a huge sum of money (even with the tiny number of Heron TP Germany has) not sure if it will cover integration of a new complex munition type, training, ongoing maintenance etc and a stockpile of munitions.
 
The role of Helmut Schmidt in changing the Bundeswehr from a rather derided force (soldiers wearing hair nets and uniforms like tramdrivers) to a force capable of Air Land Battle and worrying Moscow has not been mentioned.
He was an SPD Social Democrat like Scholz and this fact should stiffen the present German government.
By 1989 the Bundeswehr had the best equipped army in NATO and pretty decent air and naval forces.
The relationship between UK and West Germany was also a radically different one when 55,000 British troops served alongside the Bundeswehr.
However, it was also true that the Bundeswehr was only based in German soil (training was done in other NATO countries).
Germany is no longer on the front line of NATO. This must inevitably raise the question of where or whether Bundeswehr units are stationed overseas and how they work with local forces.
One solution that has been tried since the 80s is setting up joint formations, initially with France. Such Euro forces were intended to remove any links with pre 1945 Germany.
 
timmymagic said:
I'd be very surprised if it was. 150m EUR isn't a huge sum of money (even with the tiny number of Heron TP Germany has) not sure if it will cover integration of a new complex munition type, training, ongoing maintenance etc and a stockpile of munitions.
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Integration is indeed a potential problem, but bear in mind that the buy is relatively small in quantity too - just 140 rounds. Israel is also very guarded about what weapons are available on its UAVs, to the extent that it is very difficult to even find any photos of armed Heron-TPs at all. So I don't think the possibility that it is Spike-capable anyway can be excluded. As for training, maintenance and stockpile - you're making my point, Germany is one of the largest users of the missile already!
 
timmymagic said:
TomS said:
Here's an announcement about the arming of German's Heron TP UAVs.

Curious to see what Germany decides to use for armament. Supposedly, India also ordered armed Heron, but details are pretty scarce.

(Translation via Google):

The Budget Committee of the Bundestag approved the armament of the Heron TP today. A total of around 150 million euros are earmarked for armament, training and maintenance. In this way we are improving the protection of soldiers on deployments abroad.
Click to expand...
https://twitter.com/x/status/1511758982762962957
View: https://twitter.com/BMVg_Bundeswehr/status/1511758982762962957
Click to expand...

Looks like IAI are going to get an order for Sledgehammer...

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At least it shows IAI have a sense of humour in their naming department!
 
wtf-did-i-ed9g6n.jpg


This does not looks like the creampie recipe I was looking for... :D
 
TomS said:
NSM for U-212? That's a new one for me!
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Thought the proposal Kongsberg had come up with was encapsulated JSM rather than NSM. The design of JSM was more suited to fitting in a 21 inch torpedo tube.

Must be a quid pro quo with Norway....you buy 212CD we buy NSM, encapsulated JSM.....wonder if we'll see JSM purchased for F-35A as well, Germany hasn't had an air launched AShM since Kormarant 2 was retired. Also makes you wonder if we'll finally see P-8 get JSM as well, as that has been very quiet for years, the Australian's seem to be favouring LRASM these days... (if the Norwegian's are smart they'll have driven a hard bargain for purchasing 212CD...)
 
timmymagic said:
TomS said:
NSM for U-212? That's a new one for me!
Click to expand...
Thought the proposal Kongsberg had come up with was encapsulated JSM rather than NSM. The design of JSM was more suited to fitting in a 21 inch torpedo tube.

Must be a quid pro quo with Norway....you buy 212CD we buy NSM, encapsulated JSM.....wonder if we'll see JSM purchased for F-35A as well, Germany hasn't had an air launched AShM since Kormarant 2 was retired. Also makes you wonder if we'll finally see P-8 get JSM as well, as that has been very quiet for years, the Australian's seem to be favouring LRASM these days... (if the Norwegian's are smart they'll have driven a hard bargain for purchasing 212CD...)
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I knew there was a deal where Germany adopted NSM in exchange for Norwegian buy-in on the Type 212CD. But I thought that was as a Harpoon replacement for surface ships. Haven't seen anything about NSM being sub-launched except Naval Technology and National Interest (which I don't consider great sources most of the time).
 
TomS said:
Haven't seen anything about NSM being sub-launched except Naval Technology and National Interest (which I don't consider great sources most of the time).
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Kongsberg have been proposing it for an age, they had some collateral/models at arms expos years ago, think it emerged at a similar time as NSM being launched from helo's appeared as a concept (which I believe is funded and underway at present). Just needed someone to fund it. But it was definitely an encapsulated JSM rather than NSM. NSM wouldn't fit in a 21 inch tube, but the work done on JSM to fit in F-35 internal bays meant it could be done.

Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if the encapsulated JSM was referred to as NSM in a German document or by the manufacturers to keep a distinction between surface launched and airlaunched, or to make a sale seem easier and less risky.

Do hope it finally happens. It's good to see Norway taking a gamble on a new AShM whilst the rest of the West was asleep at the wheel and scoring big time with it. AFAIK the only other sub-launched western AShM at present is the Exocet (though the US did bring Sub-Harpoon out of retirement for some test shots recently).
 

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