France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS / SCAF / FSAC)

[Archibald]

By this point Dassault and the french should ditch Airbus and Germany. Just keep Spain, and move ahead.

The irony: it very nearly happened in 85-88 for the Rafale ! Spain hesitated a lot before joining the Typhoon.
Why not try again ?

 

[TomcatViP]

I really think that it would be short sighted to ditch the SCAF. SCAF is the long end goal, the only way Europe reaches such ambitious objectives starting from much to nothing.

An intermediate fighter is what a Plan B can only be. A commercial minded endeavor/Nationalistic to not buy F-35 and keep the national industry on the game.*

You'll never get a 6th gen aircraft, ready to fight its way in 2050 battles with a Plan B only. All resources (intellectual, infrastructure and financial) of Europe will be needed for that. Then, past Plan B... Maybe.

*Let's be realistic, the easiest way is still to buy F-35s.

 

[Geo]

Airbus hint a Plan B:

Guillaume Faury a souligné l'importance de s'en tenir aux propositions actuelles, lors d'une interview accordée à Reuters en marge du salon aéronautique de Farnborough, en Angleterre.

"Il y a le plan A, le SCAF. Il y a également d'autres options, nous y réfléchissons, mais nous travaillons au plan A", a-t-il déclaré.

"Nous voulons que cela se réalise. Je ne veux pas discuter du plan B. Cela compromettrait les chances de parvenir au plan A."
-----------/--------------------------

Guillaume Faury stressed the importance of sticking to the current proposals, during an interview with Reuters on the sidelines of the Farnborough Air Show in England.

"There is plan A, SCAF. There are also other options, we are thinking about it, but we are working on plan A," he said.

"We want this to happen. I don't want to discuss Plan B. It would jeopardize the chances of getting to Plan A."

Perhaps the solution lies in the wording: let's rename SCAF, Plan B and each side will be functional again!

Airbus mulls fighter options but focuses on FCAS -CEO

Europe's Airbus, locked in a dispute with Dassault Aviation over the next stage of a Franco-German-Spanish fighter project, is thinking about other options but is focused on making the project work as planned, its chief executive said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

Plan B is join to AMCA.
Japan is already booked, Korea too and France does not have ideal relations with Turkey.

Joke!
Joke?

 

[H_K]

You'll never get a 6th gen aircraft, ready to fight its way in 2050 battles with a Plan B only. All resources (intellectual, infrastructure and financial) of Europe will be needed for that.

Unfortunately the Germans are (mostly) unable to make weapon systems that are affordable and combat effective. Especially in the context of multi-national programs, where they have basically a 0% success rate in the last 3-4 decades.

Given this poor track record, any partnership with them is like rolling the dice in a game where the odds are really stacked against you.

 

[Archibald]

You'll never get a 6th gen aircraft, ready to fight its way in 2050 battles with a Plan B only. All resources (intellectual, infrastructure and financial) of Europe will be needed for that.

Unfortunately the Germans are (mostly) unable to make weapon systems that are affordable and combat effective. Especially in the context of multi-national programs, where they have basically a 0% success rate in the last 3-4 decades.

Given this port track record, any partnership with them is like rolling the dice in a game where the odds are really stacked against you.

Why ? Transall is a fine aircraft, so is Alphajet, Tornado and Typhoon work well enough. Except for saving development money, of course - but this applies to Jaguar, Concorde and countless others.

 

[Archibald]

I really think that it would be short sighted to ditch the SCAF. SCAF is the long end goal, the only way Europe reaches such ambitious objectives starting from much to nothing.

An intermediate fighter is what a Plan B can only be. A commercial minded endeavor/Nationalistic to not buy F-35 and keep the national industry on the game.*

You'll never get a 6th gen aircraft, ready to fight its way in 2050 battles with a Plan B only. All resources (intellectual, infrastructure and financial) of Europe will be needed for that. Then, past Plan B... Maybe.

*Let's be realistic, the easiest way is still to buy F-35s.

France will buy F-35 the day Hell freeze over, you know that.

 

[H_K]

Why ? Transall is a fine aircraft, so is Alphajet, Tornado and Typhoon work well enough

I consider Tornado and Alphajet the last successful multinational projects the Germans were involved in. That’s half a century ago now (almost).

Typhoon is successful in a narrow technical sense as an air superiority fighter, but failed as a program due to high acquisition costs and cost of ownership, messy upgrade paths and limited multirole capability. (Compared to say how the F-15/F-16 have developed over time, and the path the Rafale is also taking).

 

[FighterJock]

I really think that it would be short sighted to ditch the SCAF. SCAF is the long end goal, the only way Europe reaches such ambitious objectives starting from much to nothing.

An intermediate fighter is what a Plan B can only be. A commercial minded endeavor/Nationalistic to not buy F-35 and keep the national industry on the game.*

You'll never get a 6th gen aircraft, ready to fight its way in 2050 battles with a Plan B only. All resources (intellectual, infrastructure and financial) of Europe will be needed for that. Then, past Plan B... Maybe.

*Let's be realistic, the easiest way is still to buy F-35s.

France will buy F-35 the day Hell freeze over, you know that.

There is a lot of national pride for France in getting the SCAF operational and I think that they will go hell for leather to get it even if the costs sky rocket. There is also the development of the naval variant to consider as well for the PANG future aircraft carrier.

 

[Archibald]

Yeah, and SCAF being some kind of NATF is driving PA-NG size and cost through the roof. I really, but really don't like that pair - I don't think my country has the resources to carry both projects ahead, even stretched over decades. Just look at Britain's Q.E / F-35 pair. Not full blown CATOBARs, US VSTOL on the decks, and too few of them (and crews) to operate side by side.
Not sure medium powers like France and GB can still afford a pair of carriers with stealth naval aircraft on the decks. That's a pretty expensive package.
I'm not pessimistic and defeatist, just realistic. I grew up with the CDG saga after all (first decision before I was born, Giscard, 1980; second decision by Mitterrand, I was not even four, 1986; launched in '94, I was 12; entered service in 2001, I was 19. Carried on until Sarkozy decision in 2008 to stop CVF, leaving the british achieving the Q.E by 2012, I was 30).

 

[FighterJock]

Yeah, and SCAF being some kind of NATF is driving PA-NG size and cost through the roof. I really, but really don't like that pair - I don't think my country has the resources to carry both projects ahead, even stretched over decades. Just look at Britain's Q.E / F-35 pair. Not full blown CATOBARs, US VSTOL on the decks, and too few of them (and crews) to operate side by side.
Not sure medium powers like France and GB can still afford a pair of carriers with stealth naval aircraft on the decks. That's a pretty expensive package.
I'm not pessimistic and defeatist, just realistic. I grew up with the CDG saga after all (first decision before I was born, Giscard, 1980; second decision by Mitterrand, I was not even four, 1986; launched in '94, I was 12; entered service in 2001, I was 19. Carried on until Sarkozy decision in 2008 to stop CVF, leaving the british achieving the Q.E by 2012, I was 30).

Don’t get me started on the whole issue of the RAF/RN numbers of the F-35B and also the F-35A conventional variant too.

 

[GTX]

Opinion piece:

FCAS: Has Germany Driven Off the Road? (Part 1)

 

[TomcatViP]

Pretty unfair. Nobody has to ride a dead beaten horse. Just like nobody in France would buy a BMW if it had a tin pot like ringing engine.

I fear that some are trying to jam more cadaver in that coffin that it can hold.

 

[red admiral]

Opinion piece:

FCAS: Has Germany Driven Off the Road? (Part 1)

The article needs a subtitle of "Why Germany should give Dassault tens of billions of euros whilst killing off Airbus Defence"

 

[H_K]

The article needs a subtitle of "Why Germany should give Dassault tens of billions of euros whilst killing off Airbus Defence"

Hardly. Airbus DS will have the lead on several FCAS pillars. The subtitle should be “Why does Germany think it can build a fighter better than Dassault?”

And “Why does everyone else but Germany insist that “best athlete” is the way to go? (Including BAE, LM etc).

 

[red admiral]

Best athlete is fine, but if your country isn't then you might as well just purchase off the shelf

 

[timmymagic]

Why ? Transall is a fine aircraft, so is Alphajet, Tornado and Typhoon work well enough

I consider Tornado and Alphajet the last successful multinational projects the Germans were involved in. That’s half a century ago now (almost).

Typhoon is successful in a narrow technical sense as an air superiority fighter, but failed as a program due to high acquisition costs and cost of ownership, messy upgrade paths and limited multirole capability. (Compared to say how the F-15/F-16 have developed over time, and the path the Rafale is also taking).

It's undoubtedly true that Germany managed to inject huge amounts of cost increase as a result of political indecision and delay.

But cost of ownership isn't an issue now. The UK's Project Tytan sorted that out, cost per hour is not far from F-16 levels now...

And 'limited multirole capability'?? Really? That might have been the case for the Tranche 1 Typhoon, just as it was the case for Rafale early variants, F-15 and F-16....But now? It has a wider and more advanced range of weapons than Rafale and F-15/16 integrated....

 

[H_K]

And 'limited multirole capability'?? Really? It has a wider and more advanced range of weapons than Rafale and F-15/16 integrated..

I don’t want to derail this thread but that’s very misleading. The Tornado’s reconnaissance, anti-ship and SEAD capabilities have all been lost with no replacement. Deep strike is severely limited by the lack of CFTs or large fuel tanks in A2G mode. Strangely enough the F-15/F-16/Rafale can all perform those missions but Typhoon can’t.

What the Typhoon does have is a lot of brochureware weapons that in reality have never finished integration (Taurus, Marte ER, 2,000lb Paveway, Harm, Spear 3…). Brimstone is just about the only unique weapon capability that it has that most other aircraft don’t have.

 

[Trident]

Hardly. Airbus DS will have the lead on several FCAS pillars. The subtitle should be “Why does Germany think it can build a fighter better than Dassault?”

And “Why does everyone else but Germany insist that “best athlete” is the way to go? (Including BAE, LM etc).

I would be cautious about equating Germany and Airbus DS here. I think politically it was tentatively accepted at least under the previous government that France/Dassault ought to lead, an indication being the workshare allocation that was agreed accordingly. Regrettably the current government (for reasons of which some are perfectly understandable, others not so much) is too preoccupied to put its foot down.

 

[TomcatViP]

Remark that this situation would have been avoided if a simple RFP was issued and competition followed with the best offer selected.

 

[Jackonicko]

You'll never get a 6th gen aircraft, ready to fight its way in 2050 battles with a Plan B only. All resources (intellectual, infrastructure and financial) of Europe will be needed for that.

Unfortunately the Germans are (mostly) unable to make weapon systems that are affordable and combat effective. Especially in the context of multi-national programs, where they have basically a 0% success rate in the last 3-4 decades.

Given this poor track record, any partnership with them is like rolling the dice in a game where the odds are really stacked against you.

Tornado and Typhoon are both highly combat effective and relatively affordable, so that's hardly a 0% success rate. And if you want something 'purely German' then how about the Typhoon attack computer? As good, in its way, as the EJ200 engine or Captor.

 

[Jackonicko]

The article needs a subtitle of "Why Germany should give Dassault tens of billions of euros whilst killing off Airbus Defence"

Hardly. Airbus DS will have the lead on several FCAS pillars. The subtitle should be “Why does Germany think it can build a fighter better than Dassault?”

And “Why does everyone else but Germany insist that “best athlete” is the way to go? (Including BAE, LM etc).

BAE does not insist on 'best athlete', but rather is prepared to cede workshare in the wider interests of a programme. Dassault might enjoy better success in collaborative programmes if it followed a similar approach?

"Why does Germany think it can build a fighter better than Dassault?"

You could say that it already does.... Or you could point to the work it's done on MUMT, on LOUT, etc. and judge that it is more advanced than France in some key technology areas.

 

[Jackonicko]

Why ? Transall is a fine aircraft, so is Alphajet, Tornado and Typhoon work well enough

I consider Tornado and Alphajet the last successful multinational projects the Germans were involved in. That’s half a century ago now (almost).

Typhoon is successful in a narrow technical sense as an air superiority fighter, but failed as a program due to high acquisition costs and cost of ownership, messy upgrade paths and limited multirole capability. (Compared to say how the F-15/F-16 have developed over time, and the path the Rafale is also taking).

Typhoon is successful as a multi-role swing role fighter, and while sticker price is high, through life costs aren't. And with Radar 2, LAD and AMK, it's about to become even more compelling.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Germany vows to relax its caveats on European arms exports

If countries like France, Italy or Spain see no problem with giving weapons to a given country, should Germany?

www.defensenews.com

Speaking at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin, Lambrecht argued Germany “owes” to its European partners a guarantee it will refrain from derailing exports of jointly developed weapons those countries need to offset their initial investments. “We make cooperation hard because we insist on special provisions and veto power,” Lambrecht said.

If countries like France, Italy or Spain see no problem with giving arms to a given country, Germany won’t invoke its “values caveats” and hold up sales, she added. “We’re not talking about delivering to rogue states,” Lambrecht clarified.

The country’s cabinet agency devoted to economic affairs has the lead for arms exports, combining input from the Defense and Foreign Affairs departments.

The trinational Future Combat Air System of Germany, France and Spain — now hindered by work-share disagreements among key industry players Dassault and Airbus Defence and Space — almost died some years ago because of export disagreements. French officials were pushing against a German veto caveat for eventual exports of the aerial weapon, going so far as to threaten abandoning the project over the disagreement.

In the end, officials decided to table the issue, as Germany instituted a policy of approving exports by default if components included few Teutonic contributions.

 

[Jackonicko]

You'll never get a 6th gen aircraft, ready to fight its way in 2050 battles with a Plan B only. All resources (intellectual, infrastructure and financial) of Europe will be needed for that.

Unfortunately the Germans are (mostly) unable to make weapon systems that are affordable and combat effective. Especially in the context of multi-national programs, where they have basically a 0% success rate in the last 3-4 decades.

Given this poor track record, any partnership with them is like rolling the dice in a game where the odds are really stacked against you.

I wouldn't call Alpha Jet, Tornado, Eurofighter, A400M a 0% success rate, personally.

 

[Jackonicko]

Germany vows to relax its caveats on European arms exports

If countries like France, Italy or Spain see no problem with giving weapons to a given country, should Germany?

www.defensenews.com

Speaking at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin, Lambrecht argued Germany “owes” to its European partners a guarantee it will refrain from derailing exports of jointly developed weapons those countries need to offset their initial investments. “We make cooperation hard because we insist on special provisions and veto power,” Lambrecht said.

If countries like France, Italy or Spain see no problem with giving arms to a given country, Germany won’t invoke its “values caveats” and hold up sales, she added. “We’re not talking about delivering to rogue states,” Lambrecht clarified.

The country’s cabinet agency devoted to economic affairs has the lead for arms exports, combining input from the Defense and Foreign Affairs departments.

The trinational Future Combat Air System of Germany, France and Spain — now hindered by work-share disagreements among key industry players Dassault and Airbus Defence and Space — almost died some years ago because of export disagreements. French officials were pushing against a German veto caveat for eventual exports of the aerial weapon, going so far as to threaten abandoning the project over the disagreement.

In the end, officials decided to table the issue, as Germany instituted a policy of approving exports by default if components included few Teutonic contributions.

They can't even clear the export of Marder and Leopard to Ukraine.....

 

[GTX]

They can't even clear the export of Marder and Leopard to Ukraine.....

I think you will find that there is more to that than just export rules.

Having had a bit to do with German Defence exports I have found them quite easy compared to something such as dealing with the ITAR or FMS systems. That said, I don't find either of the latter too hard either - you just need to understand how things work.

 

[GTX]

Folks, this discussion is drifting off topic. Let's get it back onto the subject of the France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System.

 

[Grey Havoc]

France says European fighter jet 'will be completed'

METATEXT

www.spacewar.com

 

[Reaper]

What becomes apparent is that European countries have very different ideas in terms of foreign policy, who to sell weapons to... but at the same time not the money to do programs on their own. The result is that everyone highly likely will buy U.S. anyway.

 

[uk 75]

This is already a politics heavy thread by necessity.
The UK made no secret of the fact that it needed a partner with "funds" after TSR2.
Between 1967 and 1991 this led almost inevitably to West Germany with its powerful economy and need to develop its aerospace industry.
Early attempts to follow Tornado with a new programme for a fighter (P110) even led in 1980 to attempts at cooperation with Saudi Arabia.
Typhoon materialised but unified Germany after 1991 was much more awkward and less generous a partner.
Almost silently the US had become a key partner with Harrier and then senior partner. JSF F35 followed on from this.
Some here blame Brexit but as I have argued above, UK follows the money and looks for partners willing to commit. Japan and Sweden at the moment but over the next thirty years who knows? India? Ukraine?
Macron seems determined to make France the leading European power after the departure of Mrs Merkel.
I think it highly likely that France will build a Rafale successor with or without partners.
If Germany actually believed in Europe it would accept this reality and work with Dassault.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Emmanuel Macron postpones meeting with Olaf Scholz amid ‘fury’ over Germany’s energy aid scheme

Decision to put off traditional government consultations signals growing divide between the EU states over energy and defence

www.telegraph.co.uk

Both sides decided it was "sensible" to postpone the talks to January.

In private, however, the language was less diplomatic.

"The French are really pissed off with the Germans, especially Scholz. They aren't saying it in public but they are furious in private," said a European source.

"The Germans are doing what the French are often accused of: making decisions without consulting its partners to serve their interests.”

On the French side, the list of grievances includes Berlin’s decision to spend much of an additional €100 billion in military spending on off-the-shelf US weapons, rather than new EU defence projects to boost capacity at home, which France has been pushing for.

Macron criticises Germany's energy support scheme​

One French government official cited joint projects — including the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) fighter jet and the Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) tank — as areas where progress has been lacking. By comparison, the UK is pressing ahead with its next-generation combat aircraft, Tempest.

 

[Rhinocrates]

A brief analysis of the political problems from The Economist. The cartoon is irresistible.

Europe has a problem: France and Germany have forgotten how to argue

The EU’s traditional engine is spluttering

www.economist.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

France and Germany to fire up stalled fighter jet project (ft.com, subscription or registration may be required)


ORIGINAL CAPTION: The Future Combat Air System project is designed to breathe new life into the European aerospace industry © Airbus

France and Germany are ready to move to the next phase of their flagship fighter jet project, rekindling Europe’s largest weapons programme and removing a key irritant in their bilateral relationship.

The two countries and two of the main companies involved, Airbus and Dassault Aviation, are close to formally advancing to a crucial stage of the Future Combat Air System project, during which the demonstrator jet will be built, according to people familiar with the matter. A deal could be reached in the coming days, said two of the people, who spoke under condition of anonymity because there are still outstanding issues.

About €3.8bn had been earmarked for this next phase — dubbed “Phase 1b” — and a deadline set for the end of last year. But talks stalled after disagreements over intellectual property sharing between the companies, how work would be divided, and over the jet’s specifications.

Further complicating matters were recent tensions between France and Germany, which burst into the open in October when a joint meeting of the French and German cabinets was postponed.

The two countries have found themselves at odds over everything from a proposal for an EU-wide cap on the price of gas to gas pipelines and emergency aid programmes for people and companies hit by the energy crisis.

Speaking in Berlin on Monday as head of Germany’s aerospace association, Mike Schoellhorn, chief of Airbus defence and space, signalled the next phase of FCAS was on a surer footing. “France and Germany are each convinced of the importance of FCAS,” he said. “There is no alternative, it must work.”

[snip]

FCAS was conceived to include a next-generation jet that is designed to work seamlessly with drones and be fitted with advanced communications systems. If finalised, it could replace the fighter jets flown by European air forces, such as the Eurofighter, Germany’s Tornado and France’s Rafale.

Airbus and Dassault converged on the bare bones of an agreement just over two weeks ago, with each company making concessions, people familiar with the discussions said. Dassault has been the lead contractor for the demonstrator from the outset, but Airbus contested some of the fine print over the assignment of roles. Dassault and Airbus declined to comment on the details of the discussions.

The agreement salvages FCAS, although only for the prototype phase. The delays mean that delivery of a jet for 2040 is unlikely to be met. Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier has warned that 2050 would be more realistic. Such a delay might disadvantage FCAS in the race against a competing project, Tempest, which is developed by the UK and Italy with companies including BAE Systems and the UK arm of Italy’s Leonardo. Talks are continuing with Japan over whether to integrate its F-X fighter jet programme with Tempest.

 

[Archibald]

A brief analysis of the political problems from The Economist. The cartoon is irresistible.

View attachment 686499

Europe has a problem: France and Germany have forgotten how to argue

The EU’s traditional engine is spluttering

www.economist.com

Is that a Merce-DS ?

 

[Deltafan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1593665818755321857

View: https://twitter.com/AirbusDefence/status/1593665818755321857?s=20&t=3DuQ5jmeEoV56eQ_oQUvcg

 

[Cjc]

France, Germany, Spain agree on moving on with FCAS warplane development - Berlin

France, Germany and Spain have reached agreement on starting the next phase of development of a new fighter jet dubbed FCAS, Europe's largest defence project at an estimated cost of more than 100 billion euros ($103.4 billion), Berlin said on Friday.

www.reuters.com

Maby this can finally move on now?

 

[Deltafan]

Maybe...

 

[Hood]

Strange how SCAF and Tempest are about to reach contract status at roughly the same time as each other.

Trappier seems a very pessimistic in predicting a 2050 date. I can't see why 10 years R&D time should have been lost due to 2 years of bickering, presumably work has been continuing anyway.

 

[Archibald]

So - are we there YET ? Because SCAF countless false starts remind me of that.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7C9hPPF5x8

France would be angry Shrek.
Germany would be irritating Donkey going on angry Shrek nerves.
And Spain would be Fiona.

 

[red admiral]

Strange how SCAF and Tempest are about to reach contract status at roughly the same time as each other.

Different programme phases though. SCAF is looking at start of technology demonstrator phase, whereas Tempest started that back in 2018 and F-X much earlier.