Firearms secret projects

Scott Kenny said:
Looks like your basic Maxim gun on the Russian wheeled carriage. I think it's talking about turning Soviets into ghosts...
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Funny guy. :D It's a contraption rigged for continuous fire without a gunner. The two URLs I attached lay that out. Apparently it was used for withdrawals/retreats.
 
ArmchairSamurai said:
It's a contraption rigged for continuous fire without a gunner.
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hrm... It'd take internal modifications of the trigger to not reset after being pulled, so basically pull one spring out, then tie a string to the trigger as your tripwire.


ArmchairSamurai said:
The two URLs I attached lay that out. Apparently it was used for withdrawals/retreats.
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Google translate failed me.
 
Scott Kenny said:
hrm... It'd take internal modifications of the trigger to not reset after being pulled, so basically pull one spring out, then tie a string to the trigger as your tripwire.



Google translate failed me.
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Don't you love auto translators? The following is what my translation gave me haha:

"[...]parts of the electrically operated device include an electromagnetic trigger attached to its handle, a battery, and a 'hell machine', i.e. a clock device that acts as a circuit breaker. The main part of the latter is an ordinary alarm clock: the brass pointer of the clock moves on the surface of the gramophone record (insulator), making the device work whenever it hits a copper wire contact passing through the record. A 'ghost machine gun' with several thousand cartridges in its metal belt thus fires short bursts at set intervals."
 
ArmchairSamurai said:
Don't you love auto translators? The following is what my translation gave me haha:

"[...]parts of the electrically operated device include an electromagnetic trigger attached to its handle, a battery, and a 'hell machine', i.e. a clock device that acts as a circuit breaker. The main part of the latter is an ordinary alarm clock: the brass pointer of the clock moves on the surface of the gramophone record (insulator), making the device work whenever it hits a copper wire contact passing through the record. A 'ghost machine gun' with several thousand cartridges in its metal belt thus fires short bursts at set intervals."
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Oh, that's cooler than I thought it was!

The mechanism will probably show up at the next major civil war, and I'd be surprised if the mechanism hasn't showed up in Ukraine yet.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Oh, that's cooler than I thought it was!

The mechanism will probably show up at the next major civil war, and I'd be surprised if the mechanism hasn't showed up in Ukraine yet.
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Human ingenuity knows no bounds! I would not be surprised if these sorts of contraptions pop up in the years to come when people pour over all the photos, videos, and documents of those wars that have not yet concluded as of my writing, but will one day be history like all the rest. Fun to ponder.
 
ArmchairSamurai said:
Don't you love auto translators? The following is what my translation gave me haha:

"[...]parts of the electrically operated device include an electromagnetic trigger attached to its handle, a battery, and a 'hell machine', i.e. a clock device that acts as a circuit breaker. The main part of the latter is an ordinary alarm clock: the brass pointer of the clock moves on the surface of the gramophone record (insulator), making the device work whenever it hits a copper wire contact passing through the record. A 'ghost machine gun' with several thousand cartridges in its metal belt thus fires short bursts at set intervals."
Click to expand...

Similar idea to the 'Drip guns', used at Gallipoli . . .

Drip (or "pop off") rifle | Australian War Memorial

www.awm.gov.au www.awm.gov.au

cheers,
Robin.
 
TG1918 said:
that's photoshoped
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Now that I look at the PPSH more, you're right! The PPS though, I swear looks too real. Regardless of that, the magazine did exist at the end of the Second World War, albeit as an experimental prototype and nothing more. The blueprints are interesting to note. That being said, the magazine is more prominently featured in some variations of the AK platform and the PP-19 Bizon.
 
I seem to have lost the data and images of a WWII submachine gun project, it was apparently British, had 1, 2 and 3 barrel variants and a rate of fire of over 1000 rpm. The photo was on raigap.livejournal.com but it has now been removed. Maybe someone knows where this can be found?
 
Bottleship said:
I seem to have lost the data and images of a WWII submachine gun project, it was apparently British, had 1, 2 and 3 barrel variants and a rate of fire of over 1000 rpm. The photo was on raigap.livejournal.com but it has now been removed. Maybe someone knows where this can be found?
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Marek MSG
 
Remington Trench Gun Designs of WW1.

I found the shortened Model 11 much by accident while researching the Rhodesian Browning Auto 5. From the first article linked, I get the impression that the war ending prevented the two versions of the Model 11 (short and long) from seeing production; the Reddit post I also linked does not elaborate on this and merely mentions them being outright rejected--for what reason I do not know. I say that because said post actually has two ordinance filings of Remington shotguns, both of which I attached; both say rejected in the description.

The other model, a Remington Model 10, tells a more obvious story. The first link claims the shotgun was rejected due to the Russian Empire's descent into civil war, owing to contracts with Remington the Tsar already made, now being forfeit, whereas the latter link claims it was more likely meant for American troops fighting on the Northern Front. Apparently, US troops were issued Mosin bayonets when being shipped overseas during the intervention. I cannot confirm or deny that last bit, just repeating what I read.

What do y'all think? Does anybody have anything to add to this?

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/america-s-prototype-trench-guns-of-world-war-i/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/oca77a/rejected_world_war_i_trench_shotguns
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/oca77a/rejected_world_war_i_trench_shotguns/#lightbox
 

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  • Remington Model 10 Trench Gun (Russian Contract).png
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  • Remington Model 11 trench gun prototype.jpg
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ArmchairSamurai said:
The other model, a Remington Model 10, tells a more obvious story. The first link claims the shotgun was rejected due to the Russian Empire's descent into civil war, owing to contracts with Remington the Tsar already made, now being forfeit, whereas the latter link claims it was more likely meant for American troops fighting on the Northern Front. Apparently, US troops were issued Mosin bayonets when being shipped overseas during the intervention. I cannot confirm or deny that last bit, just repeating what I read.
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IIRC, American troops sent over to Russia got the Remington Moisin rifles for shared ammunition.
 
Russian suggestions and experiments, pre-WW1 period:

Pistols and machine pistols:

1901 - suggestion, self-loading pistol with magazine fed for cavalry, based on Luger pistol, in 7.62x17 (based on 7.65x17), with 5 inch / 127 mm barrel

1903 - suggestion, Browning M1903 9 mm pistol for cavalry, guard, grenadiers and police

7.62 mm cartridge, based on 9x20SR case + 7.62 mm Nagant bullet, from Izhevsk, 1903(?)-1912

7.62 mm self-loading pistol, based on Browning M1906 construction, but free from patents, from Izhevsk, 1912

9 mm Browning M1903, rebuilt in Izhevsk, cartridge 9x20 rimmless, based on 9x20SR, 1912

Browning M1906, rebuilted in Izhevsk from 6.35x15

Browning (.25 ACP) to 9x17 (.38 Browning short), 4 inch / 102 mm barrel, 1913

Bergmann-Bayard, rebuilted in Sestroretsk/Oranienbaum to full-auto

Bergmann-Bayard, rebuilted in Izhevsk from 9x23 Largo to 9x20SR Browning long (or, maybe, Russian 9x20), 25-rd magazine, fullt-auto, 500 rpm in project, 550 rpm in two real pistols in tests, with damage - 900-1000 rpm, more stabilize than Bergmann-Bayard from Sestroretsk, suggested cover for barrel or ribs

Suggestion of Bergmann-Bayard-Izhevsk-Full-auto for MVD (Ministerstvo Vnutrennih Del, Ministry of Internal Affairs) - cover for barrel, 40- or 50-rd magazine, 400-450 rpm, new safety with safe, single shot and limited burst, new simple sight for 100 meters, the barrel must withstand 200 rounds in 2 minutes

Machine guns:

Vickers machine gun for cavalry, with air cooling

Lewis machine gun for infatry, cavalry (6 in cavalry regiment), fortresses, aircrafts

Suggestion of Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich:
- Lewis LMG with air cooling for infantry, 2 in infatry company
- Lewis MG with water cooling, belt fed, on whelled carriage, bulletproof shield
- Lewis MG with magazine fed, on tripod, bulletproof shield
- Lewis MG with steel cover for barrel

Magazines for Lewis - 50-rd for infantry and cavalry, 100-rd for fortresses and navy

Planned new production of Lewis MG and semi-auto pistols in Tula

Does anyone know anything about early belt-fed Lewis? Did such a design exist? Or did the Russians want to create a new belt fed mechanism?
 
Bottleship said:
Russian suggestions and experiments, pre-WW1 period:

Pistols and machine pistols:

1901 - suggestion, self-loading pistol with magazine fed for cavalry, based on Luger pistol, in 7.62x17 (based on 7.65x17), with 5 inch / 127 mm barrel

1903 - suggestion, Browning M1903 9 mm pistol for cavalry, guard, grenadiers and police

7.62 mm cartridge, based on 9x20SR case + 7.62 mm Nagant bullet, from Izhevsk, 1903(?)-1912

7.62 mm self-loading pistol, based on Browning M1906 construction, but free from patents, from Izhevsk, 1912

9 mm Browning M1903, rebuilt in Izhevsk, cartridge 9x20 rimmless, based on 9x20SR, 1912

Browning M1906, rebuilted in Izhevsk from 6.35x15

Browning (.25 ACP) to 9x17 (.38 Browning short), 4 inch / 102 mm barrel, 1913

Bergmann-Bayard, rebuilted in Sestroretsk/Oranienbaum to full-auto

Bergmann-Bayard, rebuilted in Izhevsk from 9x23 Largo to 9x20SR Browning long (or, maybe, Russian 9x20), 25-rd magazine, fullt-auto, 500 rpm in project, 550 rpm in two real pistols in tests, with damage - 900-1000 rpm, more stabilize than Bergmann-Bayard from Sestroretsk, suggested cover for barrel or ribs

Suggestion of Bergmann-Bayard-Izhevsk-Full-auto for MVD (Ministerstvo Vnutrennih Del, Ministry of Internal Affairs) - cover for barrel, 40- or 50-rd magazine, 400-450 rpm, new safety with safe, single shot and limited burst, new simple sight for 100 meters, the barrel must withstand 200 rounds in 2 minutes

Machine guns:

Vickers machine gun for cavalry, with air cooling

Lewis machine gun for infatry, cavalry (6 in cavalry regiment), fortresses, aircrafts

Suggestion of Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich:
- Lewis LMG with air cooling for infantry, 2 in infatry company
- Lewis MG with water cooling, belt fed, on whelled carriage, bulletproof shield
- Lewis MG with magazine fed, on tripod, bulletproof shield
- Lewis MG with steel cover for barrel

Magazines for Lewis - 50-rd for infantry and cavalry, 100-rd for fortresses and navy

Planned new production of Lewis MG and semi-auto pistols in Tula

Does anyone know anything about early belt-fed Lewis? Did such a design exist? Or did the Russians want to create a new belt fed mechanism?
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Very interesting! Thanks for sharing! That's the first I had heard of any of these.
I did a bit of cursory digging and all I came up with thus far is a belt fed early Soviet pistol. I wonder if the Russian manufacturing during the war turned more in the direction of domestically designed weapons, which is why these foreign designs went no where. Or maybe it was debt from the Russo-Japanese War... Other than the Winchesters, Chauchats and the Colt/Marlins in Russian service, I was not aware of other foreign license productions over there.
 
Bottleship said:
Russian suggestions and experiments, pre-WW1 period:

Pistols and machine pistols:

1901 - suggestion, self-loading pistol with magazine fed for cavalry, based on Luger pistol, in 7.62x17 (based on 7.65x17), with 5 inch / 127 mm barrel

1903 - suggestion, Browning M1903 9 mm pistol for cavalry, guard, grenadiers and police

7.62 mm cartridge, based on 9x20SR case + 7.62 mm Nagant bullet, from Izhevsk, 1903(?)-1912

7.62 mm self-loading pistol, based on Browning M1906 construction, but free from patents, from Izhevsk, 1912

9 mm Browning M1903, rebuilt in Izhevsk, cartridge 9x20 rimmless, based on 9x20SR, 1912

Browning M1906, rebuilted in Izhevsk from 6.35x15

Browning (.25 ACP) to 9x17 (.38 Browning short), 4 inch / 102 mm barrel, 1913

Bergmann-Bayard, rebuilted in Sestroretsk/Oranienbaum to full-auto

Bergmann-Bayard, rebuilted in Izhevsk from 9x23 Largo to 9x20SR Browning long (or, maybe, Russian 9x20), 25-rd magazine, fullt-auto, 500 rpm in project, 550 rpm in two real pistols in tests, with damage - 900-1000 rpm, more stabilize than Bergmann-Bayard from Sestroretsk, suggested cover for barrel or ribs

Suggestion of Bergmann-Bayard-Izhevsk-Full-auto for MVD (Ministerstvo Vnutrennih Del, Ministry of Internal Affairs) - cover for barrel, 40- or 50-rd magazine, 400-450 rpm, new safety with safe, single shot and limited burst, new simple sight for 100 meters, the barrel must withstand 200 rounds in 2 minutes

Machine guns:

Vickers machine gun for cavalry, with air cooling

Lewis machine gun for infatry, cavalry (6 in cavalry regiment), fortresses, aircrafts

Suggestion of Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich:
- Lewis LMG with air cooling for infantry, 2 in infatry company
- Lewis MG with water cooling, belt fed, on whelled carriage, bulletproof shield
- Lewis MG with magazine fed, on tripod, bulletproof shield
- Lewis MG with steel cover for barrel

Magazines for Lewis - 50-rd for infantry and cavalry, 100-rd for fortresses and navy

Planned new production of Lewis MG and semi-auto pistols in Tula

Does anyone know anything about early belt-fed Lewis? Did such a design exist? Or did the Russians want to create a new belt fed mechanism?
Click to expand...
The Lewis Automatic Machine Gun(OCR)_314.png
The Lewis Automatic Machine Gun(OCR)_315.png
 
This one is new to me. I am sure you all have heard of the BESAL, and obviously the STEN, but what about this stripped down Lee-Enfield? It looks a lot like the No. 5 Mk. I Jungle Carbine huh? Supposedly while this rifle was prototyped in 1942, it may have origins dating back to 1940, as German invasion was a big possibility.

https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-276265

https://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/151629437091/simplified-rifles-born-of-the-desperate-times

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/british-1942-prototype-simplified-enfield/


32cee42e774ba1b192d222eda4319660b2d10b54.jpeg

tumblr_oempqnpU9U1s57vgxo6_1280.jpg
 
ArmchairSamurai said:
This one is new to me. I am sure you all have heard of the BESAL, and obviously the STEN, but what about this stripped down Lee-Enfield? It looks a lot like the No. 5 Mk. I Jungle Carbine huh? Supposedly while this rifle was prototyped in 1942, it may have origins dating back to 1940, as German invasion was a big possibility.
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A minor point, but CSAD's Simplified Rifle was not based on the Lee-Enfield. Instead, it was derived from the Enfield Pattern 1914 rifle with its Mauser-type action ... which also explains the built-in 5-round box magazine.
 
Apophenia said:
A minor point, but CSAD's Simplified Rifle was not based on the Lee-Enfield. Instead, it was derived from the Enfield Pattern 1914 rifle with its Mauser-type action ... which also explains the built-in 5-round box magazine.
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Good point! I should have known better what I saw was a Mauser type action... I kinda lump all the British bolt rifles of that era into Lee-Enfield. Oops!
 
Last edited:
An experimental improved variant of the M3 Grease gun, built in the early post-war by one Lt Colonel Hamilton. The magazine well and ejection port remain unchanged, but they've been welded to a rectangular reciever with a side charging handle and wooden furniture. Ekran Görüntüsü (2003).png Ekran Görüntüsü (1499).png
 
MechanicalMay said:
An experimental improved variant of the M3 Grease gun, built in the early post-war by one Lt Colonel Hamilton. The magazine well and ejection port remain unchanged, but they've been welded to a rectangular reciever with a side charging handle and wooden furniture. View attachment 753026View attachment 753025
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Adding complexity to the simplest possible gun. Dough!
Similar to the way that STEN Mark V added wooden furniture. British propogandists said that it was to instill confidence in the troops.
The only practical purpose is to prevent fingers from freezing to guns during winter.
 
riggerrob said:
Adding complexity to the simplest possible gun. ...
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Yep, but Hamilton retained that single-stack magazine - the one M3 feature that he should have ditched!

On those freezing fingers ... cost and weight analysis - wood furniture or issue mittens? :D
 
Hi,

Apophenia said:
On those freezing fingers ... cost and weight analysis - wood furniture or issue mittens? :D
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When mittens get wet, they don't insulate very well. Not that I'd reject mittens, but wood furniture seems more resilient against many circumstantial factors.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
HoHun said:
Hi,



When mittens get wet, they don't insulate very well. Not that I'd reject mittens, but wood furniture seems more resilient against many circumstantial factors.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Click to expand...
Yes.
... and wooden furniture also works better in the desert. If you leave an all-metal gun exposed to the sun for a few hours, it will be painfully hot on the hands.
 

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