Firearms secret projects

[Apophenia]

Fusil ametrallador Trapote de España

This is the Fusil ametrallador Trapote, modelo 1933 chambered for 7x57mm Mauser.

A little potted history: It is a bit blurry but the story seems to rest on Spanish officialdom being unhappy with the outcome of a 1927 competition to replace the Ejército's FA Hotchkiss Mod II m/25 light machine guns. That contest was won by established arms-maker Astra with its Fusil ametrallador Astra-Unión, modelo 1927. But government industrial policy favoured alternative manufacturers.

Result was an order for the FA Trapote m/33 to be produced by Fabrica de Armas de Oviedo in Asturias. These gas-operated weapons were made to a patent by artillery officer Andrés Trapote. A gas regulator allowed rate of fire to be easily adjustable between 60 and 650 rpm. Worn barrels could be replaced in the field without special tools. The gun was fed by box magazines (of 15 or 20 rounds used with a cartridge charger) but these proved to be dirt traps and difficult to clean. The side-mounted box magazines also shifted the balance of the weapon as rounds were depleted. Measuring some 1.18 m in length and weighing 9.2 kg empty, only ~400 x FA Trapote m/33 were completed.

Official reviews of the weapon and its procurement history were ordered in 1933. As Minister of War, future president of the Second Republic Manuel Azaña, reviewed the reports on the Trapote machine gun. He found little clarity in these reports and concluded that the Artillería favoured the Trapote in support of one of their own but stopped short of fully endorsing the weapon. That suggested to Azaña that the Artillería was quite aware of the Trapote's limitations. In any case, the FA Trapote m/33 seemed to offer little in the way of advance over the FA Hotchkiss Mod II m/25 it was meant to replace.

On example of the FA Trapote m/33 is preserved example at the museum of the Spanish Army Academy of Artillery in Segovia.

 

[Kiltonge]

GE 30mm Gatling, 1957. Remarkably compact. No designation stated.

Edit: T212. 6 barrels, 64in long, 6,600rpm, 12,500lb recoil, hydraulic or electric drive. Proposed for B-58 tail stinger?

 

[Kiltonge]

Avco Avroc rocket-propelled 40mm grenade rounds. AvWeek, 02 Dec 1967

 

[le max]

Hello, this is from the polish army museum in warsaw:

"Board of various fire arms elements and spare parts from Lvov army workshop No.6"

What is that weapon?

 

[riggerrob]

Hello, this is from the polish army museum in warsaw:

"Board of various fire arms elements and spare parts from Lvov army workshop No.6"

What is that weapon?

The extended breech-cover reminds us of several conversions of Lee-Enfield bolt-action rifles. It looks like a semi-auto or full-auto conversion.
Though the single-piece wooden stock suggests that the original rifle was built in Eastern Europe.
In 1915, the Brit Howell converted a handful is Short Magazine Lee-as field rifles into semi-automatic (aka. self-loading rifles in British parlance) by cludging a gas-piston onto the right side. Ian McCollum over on www.forgottenweapons.com has published a video on the internet of the 1915 Howell SLR conversion. Since the British Army had plenty of Mills Bombs and Lewis Light Machineguns - by late war - it is doubtful if a Howell ever saw combat.

The American equivalent is the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) developed during WW1 and served well into the Korean War (early 1950s).

Similar conversions of Lee-as field rifles were done in Australia and New Zealand (Charlton 1941) during World War 2.
The Canadian equivalent is the Huot automatic-rifle based upon the WW1 Ross Rifle, but done during the 1920s.

 

[SirCoutin]

"Lieutenant General Tadeusz Rozwadowski was a distinguished officer in the Austro-Hungarian army during the first world war and in 1918 was made commanding officer of the newly formed Polish Army. In 1920, he recommended the creation of a new self-loading rifle based on old stocks of Mannlicher straight pull rifles, mainly the model of 1890 to be completed by the major state arsenals in Poland, being praised for this endeavor by the then Minister of military affairs, General Kazimierz Sosnkowski. This new rifle was named the Wz. 1921 and nicknamed the DOG after the General Region Command “Lwów” (Dowództwo Okręgu Generalnego “Lwów”) who manufactured this prototype, operated with a very simple gas piston attached to the right of the receiver which operated the bolt directly, which could be turned off to return the rifle to manual fire. A wireframe pistol grip was added to make handling better while retaining the 5-round magazine which still used Mannlicher clips."

From - https://smallarmsreview.com/bolt-action-conversions-part-ii-the-interbellum-offerings/

 

[le max]

"Lieutenant General Tadeusz Rozwadowski was a distinguished officer in the Austro-Hungarian army during the first world war and in 1918 was made commanding officer of the newly formed Polish Army. In 1920, he recommended the creation of a new self-loading rifle based on old stocks of Mannlicher straight pull rifles, mainly the model of 1890 to be completed by the major state arsenals in Poland, being praised for this endeavor by the then Minister of military affairs, General Kazimierz Sosnkowski. This new rifle was named the Wz. 1921 and nicknamed the DOG after the General Region Command “Lwów” (Dowództwo Okręgu Generalnego “Lwów”) who manufactured this prototype, operated with a very simple gas piston attached to the right of the receiver which operated the bolt directly, which could be turned off to return the rifle to manual fire. A wireframe pistol grip was added to make handling better while retaining the 5-round magazine which still used Mannlicher clips."

From - https://smallarmsreview.com/bolt-action-conversions-part-ii-the-interbellum-offerings/

Thanks a lot SirCoutin

 

[Bottleship]

Buchsenmeister- und Feuerwerkbuch by Friedrich Meyer, 1594:

XVI century gyrojet?

 

[klem]

An 18th century Venetian machine gun reproduction. The weapon was built for use on sea or on land. However, it appears historically that it was used in the Italian Wars of Unification.(https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/31176-18th-century-machine-gun-reproduction/)-(https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/25755-an-18th-century-machine-gun/)

 

[TG1918]

Bergmann MP20

 

[klem]

A little story with this weapon ?

 

[Apophenia]

A little story with this weapon ?

I'm guessing that this was an interim design? It looks like an MP 18/I but has a fire selector like the MP 28.

That MP 20 designation is also somewhat confusing since there was also a SIG Bergmann 1920 - a licensed MP 18 chambered for 7.65x21mm Parabellum or 7.63x25mm Mauser.

 

[riggerrob]

I'm guessing that this was an interim design? It looks like an MP 18/I but has a fire selector like the MP 28.

That MP 20 designation is also somewhat confusing since there was also a SIG Bergmann 1920 - a licensed MP 18 chambered for 7.65x21mm Parabellum or 7.63x25mm Mauser.

The Canadian magazine “Calibre” did an article on inter-war Erma submachineguns a few years back.

 

[klem]

The design of the MP 18, I was led by Hugo Schmeisser, an employee of the Theodor Bergmann Abteilung Waffenbau in Suhl. In the years following the war,Bergmann had submitted four different versions of the MP 18 for evaluation by the German army, known as Models I, II, III and IV. All these variants were essentially the same in their basic design, but differed in the layout of the magazine feed. The first model, the MP 18,I, used a Trommelmagazin TM 08. No details are available for the MP 18,II, but the MP 18,III and MP 18,IV were both fed by a straight 90° magazine feed - the German army was apparently already well attached to the MP 18,I before the MP 18,III and MP 18,IV were submitted.
Theodore Bergmann, having abandoned arms production in his factory, sold his submachine gun to Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft in Neuhausen am Rheinfall, Switzerland. However, the weapon manufactured by SIG was a sample of the MP 18,III that Theodor Bergmann sent to SIG to study, rather than the MP 18,I. SIG began production of the MP 18,III under the name "Bergmann machine pistol" or "SIG Model 1920", which was not an official designation but was offered for sale for international export in the 1920s. The SIG Bergmann, in line with the MP 18,III and MP 18,IV, used a box magazine feeder that took magazines from Mauser models...
Back in Germany, Hugo Schmeisser continued his work on machine guns at his new employer, C.G. Haenel. This work was undertaken independently of Theodor Bergmann or SIG. At an unknown date, probably in the mid-1920s, Schmeisser built a small series of prototypes - known as the MP Schmeisser I & II. These were essentially no different from the MP 18,III or MP 18,IV, and thus by extension from the SIG Bergmann, with the exception of the addition of a firing selector above the trigger group, which took the form of a push-button. . This was an improvement on the MP 18, which had no semi-automatic function, and the magazines for these guns were of the Mauser type. Then, at the end of the 1920s, an improved version of the MP Schmeisser appeared, called the "MP Schmeisser Mod". 28/II'. The numerical suffix indicates that this was probably the second iteration of the MP Schmeisser, after the earlier "I" prototype. The shot selection button was retained on this model, but a number of additional improvements were also made.
From the MP 28,II, a variant of the MP 18,I was born, sometimes called "MP 18,Iv" (the "v" standing for "verbessert" or"improved"). The weapons themselves are instead marked "M.P.18,I SYSTEM SCHMEISSER". The so-called MP 18,Iv was a conversion of the MP 18,I from a 45° Trommelmagazin feed to a 90° Schmeisser magazine feed. These conversions were carried out at C.G. Haenel.MP 18,Iv conversions were undertaken from 1920, before the MP 28,II. http://firearms.96.lt/pages/Bergmann MP18.I.html

 

[ArmchairSamurai]

Early form of what would become the Tarasnice 21 - a Czech competitor to the SPG-82

 

[ArmchairSamurai]

What is this?? I just stumbled upon it. When reverse image searched, all I get are a few Russian forum pages that say the same thing: 88 mm T24 anti-tank grenade launcher
Searching that and variations of that, come up with nothing... It looks kinda like a super bazooka. Maybe a prototype?

 

[klem]

The enigmatic SMG "Delacre-Vanophem" from 1939 is a french experimental submachine gun in 9 mm. Apparently, Henri Delacre and William Vanophem designed this SMG in accordance with patent FR925099A of William Vanophem, who acquired the rights to the weapon by filing a patent in France in 1946. The initial patent for this model was filed in Luxembourg in October 1939 , but the outbreak of World War II interrupted the procedure, and subsequent patents, filed in France, were not published until 1947. The exact identity of the designer is ambiguous, as the weapon is also called "Delacre Mle 1939 », which makes it a little-known weapon. Philippe Regenstreif gave him an article published in the “Gazette desarmes N° 314”.

 

[ArmchairSamurai]

The enigmatic SMG "Delacre-Vanophem" from 1939 is a french experimental submachine gun in 9 mm. Apparently, Henri Delacre and William Vanophem designed this SMG in accordance with patent FR925099A of William Vanophem, who acquired the rights to the weapon by filing a patent in France in 1946. The initial patent for this model was filed in Luxembourg in October 1939 , but the outbreak of World War II interrupted the procedure, and subsequent patents, filed in France, were not published until 1947. The exact identity of the designer is ambiguous, as the weapon is also called "Delacre Mle 1939 », which makes it a little-known weapon. Philippe Regenstreif gave him an article published in the “Gazette desarmes N° 314”.

I found the link below that seems to be a good reference for quite many obscure SMGs, like the one you mention. I was not aware of the "Delacre-Vanophem" SMG, so thank you for that.

http://firearms.96.lt/pages/Get_Em_Puppy's World SMGs.html

 

[TG1918]

markings on the crest of a M.P. Schmeisser I.

 

[TG1918]

Springfield M1903 rifle converted to semi-automatic by unknown civilian inventor

 

[TG1918]

A test model of a weapon based on the Tokarev AVT rifle to find a ballistic solution for one of the early experimental versions of the 5.45mm automatic cartridge.

 

[TG1918]

Tokarev T-2 self-loading carbine, 1949

 

[TG1918]

Tokarev AKT-40 sniper model

 

[TG1918]

full-auto variant of Tokarev SVT-38 rifle

 

[TG1918]

Simonov AKSM-34-P-41 "light rifle" chambered in 7.62x25mm Tokarev pistol caliber

 

[TG1918]

Rifle variants of Fedorov Avtomat:
6.5mm automatic rifle of Fedorov system, 1922

6.5mm automatic rifle of Degtyarev system with fixed barrel, 1922

6.5mm automatic rifle of Fedorov system, 1920-1922

6.5mm automatic rifle of Fedorov system with bipods, 1920-1922

7.62mm automatic rifle of Fedorov system, 1926

 

[Scott Kenny]

Springfield M1903 rifle converted to semi-automatic by unknown civilian inventorView attachment 724396

Greatly prefer the Pedersen Device, but those are not exactly reliable even after being tuned up by a modern gunsmith who knows what he's doing.

Replace bolt of M1903 Mark 1 with Pedersen device, and fit the first of 10 magazines each holding 40 rounds of 7.62 French Longue. Poor Doughboys were going to hate life, the Pedersen device and ammo added 14lbs to their load!

Or else we bust out the Charleton Automatic Rifle, an SMLE converted to gas operation and probably full auto .303.

 

[Mourek]

Early Italian universal / general purpose machine gun?
View attachment 698589View attachment 698590

 

[fortrena]

Developed in 1943, the 3.25 inch (82.55 mm) T24 rocket launcher apparently followed in the footsteps of the 3.25 inch (82.55 mm) T16, a project launched in 1942 or 1943 by the Artillery Development Division of the U.S. Army Ordnance Department in order to come with a weapon with a longer range (and greater punch?) than that of the 2.36 in Rocket launcher, M1.

Both weapons were more robust and heavier than the M1. As a result, neither of them found much favour with the infantry.

From the looks of it, the photograph of the T24 mentioned above was taken around May 1944, at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, in Maryland.

The capture by American forces of several RPzB 54, an 88 mm (3.46 inch) German rocket launcher also known as the Panzerschreck and Ofenrohr, in 1944, in Italy (?), led to a decision to upgrade the second generation of American rocket launchers, thus leading to the development of the 3.5 inch (88.9 mm) T74 rocket launcher.

The T24 was seemingly put aside around September 1944.

Ironically, the capture by German forces of several M1s, seemingly on the Eastern Front, had led to the development of the RPzB 54. An early version of that weapon might, I repeat might, have been known as the RPzB 43.

As it turned out, the production version of the T74, the 3.5 in Rocket launcher, M20, did not see action during the Second World War. Given the end of that conflict, the U.S. Army did not proceed at high speed to put it in the hands of the troops. Small scale production began at some point, however, perhaps in 1948-49.

The onset of the Korean War, in June 1950, caught the U.S. Army by surprise. Realising that its rocket launchers could not penetrate the armor of the North Koreans' Soviet-made tanks, it rushed the M20 into mass production. The first examples of that "Super Bazooka" reached the Korean peninsula around mid July.

 

[Bottleship]

Soviet experimental weapons:
Submarine machine guns and assaul rifles:

Для боевых пловцов. Часть II | Оружейный журнал «КАЛАШНИКОВ»

31 декабря 1969 г. в Советском Союзе стартует ОКР «Подводный пулемётный комплекс», получившая шифр «Моруж-2», и 25 марта 1970 г. года определяются параметры ТТЗ. За разработку патронов ответственным был избран ЦНИИТОЧМАШ, оружия — ЦКИБ СОО. Пулемётом планировалось вооружать сверхмалые подводные...

www.kalashnikov.ru

6.5 mm 1936 full-auto carbine:

Опередивший время. Экспериментальный советский автомат-карабин 1936 г. | Оружейный журнал «КАЛАШНИКОВ»

Седьмого марта 1936 года ГУВП отправило начальнику Ковровского конструкторского бюро стрелкового вооружения (ККБСВ) П. И. Майну проект технических условий на автомат-карабин с предложением внести в них корректировки и определить сроки изготовления образца. Содержание тактико-технических...

www.kalashnikov.ru

6.5 mm cartridge:

Переворот в истории. Советский промежуточный патрон 1936 года | Оружейный журнал «КАЛАШНИКОВ»

Итак, до сих пор считалось, что именно немецкий комплекс под патрон 7,92×33 подтолкнул советских специалистов на принятие решения о создании в СССР оружия аналогичного типа. При этом, вторичность советских разработок оружия под промежуточный патрон в его специализированной версии по отношению к...

www.kalashnikov.ru

Kondakov machine gun and other:

История русского оружия. Особое конструкторское бюро № 43 |

Когда появился первый советский пулемёт с роликовым запиранием канала ствола?

www.kalashnikov.ru

 

[ArmchairSamurai]

Developed in 1943, the 3.25 inch (82.55 mm) T24 rocket launcher apparently followed in the footsteps of the 3.25 inch (82.55 mm) T16, a project launched in 1942 or 1943 by the Artillery Development Division of the U.S. Army Ordnance Department in order to come with a weapon with a longer range (and greater punch?) than that of the 2.36 in Rocket launcher, M1.

Both weapons were more robust and heavier than the M1. As a result, neither of them found much favour with the infantry.

From the looks of it, the photograph of the T24 mentioned above was taken around May 1944, at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, in Maryland.

The capture by American forces of several RPzB 54, an 88 mm (3.46 inch) German rocket launcher also known as the Panzerschreck and Ofenrohr, in 1944, in Italy (?), led to a decision to upgrade the second generation of American rocket launchers, thus leading to the development of the 3.5 inch (88.9 mm) T74 rocket launcher.

The T24 was seemingly put aside around September 1944.

Ironically, the capture by German forces of several M1s, seemingly on the Eastern Front, had led to the development of the RPzB 54. An early version of that weapon might, I repeat might, have been known as the RPzB 43.

As it turned out, the production version of the T74, the 3.5 in Rocket launcher, M20, did not see action during the Second World War. Given the end of that conflict, the U.S. Army did not proceed at high speed to put it in the hands of the troops. Small scale production began at some point, however, perhaps in 1948-49.

The onset of the Korean War, in June 1950, caught the U.S. Army by surprise. Realising that its rocket launchers could not penetrate the armor of the North Koreans' Soviet-made tanks, it rushed the M20 into mass production. The first examples of that "Super Bazooka" reached the Korean peninsula around mid July.

Thank you for that. I found a photo of an oddball prototype. Nice!

 

[Bottleship]

From Soviet archives, WW2 period (1942-43?)



Experimental grenade for 26 mm signal pistole, weight 165 g, explosives 30 g, maximum range 300 m - for airborne troops, recon and guerillas

 

[klem]

From Soviet archives, WW2 period (1942-43?)

View attachment 733704

Experimental grenade for 26 mm signal pistole, weight 165 g, explosives 30 g, maximum range 300 m - for airborne troops, recon and guerillas

Personnel initiative.

 

[Ravinoff]

Yet another update on the...that thing discussed several times already. I was wrong, it isn't Russian, nor is it at all related to the AEK-965. The original post was actually right, it is a 30x29mm pump-action homebuilt grenade launcher, a post on /r/ForgottenWeapons today finally nailed down the origin of that monstrosity. According to Veritas (a magazine published by USSOCOM), it was recovered in El Salvador of all places, following an attack on the El Paraiso barracks by the Frente Farabundo Martí de Liberación Nacional (FMLN) insurgency in 1988. The article misidentifies it as being a 12.7mm weapon, but the VOG-17/30 rounds with it are pretty distinctive and the confusion likely stems from it being apparently built using the bolt/breechblock assembly from a Yakushev-Borzov YakB-12.7 Gatling gun, presumably cannibalized from a Mil Mi-24D. Don't ask me how the hell they came up with that idea, but the thing weighed around 20lbs and it's unclear if it was ever actually fired...but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work fine.

 

[Christopher Wang]

Paul Slunecko (2014) on Gunboards posted these images of what is supposedly a WW1-era Mosin-Nagant which has been rebuilt by Turkey with a Mauser-style nosecap and bayonet lug to mount the same short-handle export bayonets as the Turkish Mauser 1890, 1893, and 1903 rifles during the 1930s:






SOURCE: Slunecko, P. [paulslunecko]. (2014, October 25). Turkish Mosin Nagant? [Online forum post]. Gunboards. Retrieved from https://www.gunboards.com/threads/turkish-mosin-nagant.376139/

 

[Scott Kenny]

Paul Slunecko (2014) on Gunboards posted these images of what is supposedly a WW1-era Mosin-Nagant which has been rebuilt by Turkey with a Mauser-style nosecap and bayonet lug to mount the same short-handle export bayonets as the Turkish Mauser 1890, 1893, and 1903 rifles during the 1930s

There's also a number of various "Enfouser" Enfield/Mauser rebuilds doing a similar thing. Some Turkish, some Ethiopian, some who the hell knows.

 

[Rhinocrates]

Not exactly secret but an interesting example of making love AND war. A flintlock rifle owned by George IV of England, 1765.

 

[ArmchairSamurai]

Just came across this. It appears to be a firing apparatus for an obscured line-of-sight based on the DP-28.

 

[ArmchairSamurai]

Found something else: "Soviet Ghost Machine Gun" <--- What a name!

https://www.sotasampo.fi/en/photographs/page/sakuva_102602

https://dzen.ru/a/XkTyQdP4Ykz5DcYq

 

[Scott Kenny]

Found something else: "Soviet Ghost Machine Gun" <--- What a name!

https://www.sotasampo.fi/en/photographs/page/sakuva_102602

https://dzen.ru/a/XkTyQdP4Ykz5DcYq

Looks like your basic Maxim gun on the Russian wheeled carriage. I think it's talking about turning Soviets into ghosts...