FFG(X)

[johnpjones1775]

And I also have a friend who was a surface warfare officer from a Burke to a Freedom and immediatelly started to try to transfer back cause he hated the damcon set up and the thing gearing, which was supposably the refit FIX ones, broke the first time they hit 38 knots. The Navy freaking admits that the LCS is bad on surivivability for its role and is taking steps to upgrade it. This year the navy started rolling out a refit package to upgrade their survivability. They will not do that if they felt they were good.

Also, the same AAWC who was shove to a LCS and put behind 3 different burkes and did fuck all of use beside being a fancy retransmittor for the DDGs who did all the work? Cause the Threats the LCS faced could barely be track by her CEASAR? The one that got a participation award for being in a combat zone? That AAWC?

Like we been over this in the LCS thread boss, I like the things, mostly the Freedoms are a loss, but they are wholly unsuitable for frigate work like we need the Connies for.

They just dont have the Sensors or the weapons to do the job.

Lmao, they upgrade survivability on all classes of ships regularly.
They’ve recently begun upgrading EW packages on Burkes.

You just don’t like them, so nothing will be good enough.

Also large surface combatant and small surface combatant are two very different career paths in the modern navy, so the likelihood that you’re lying or that your friend is lying is very high.

Even at the beginning of the LCS program they preferred to tap PC and Perry sailors particularly officers, and since then they’ve been specifically building and training a cadre of LCS sailors.

Lmao yes the AAWC was ‘shoved’ onto an LCS…not like he couldn’t have made his flag on any of the Burkes if he was concerned about the LCS’s survivability.

Don’t have the sensors or weapons to do what job? The FFG job? I never said anything about that, you’re just making shit up to be upset and argue about at this point.

Edit
Also your word choice betrays you and your true feelings. You didn’t say the LCS could not track the targets/threats. You said they ‘could barely’ track them. That means they could indeed track them, but you wanted to down play that.

Also, confirmed with my pal, no freedoms have had an issue with the New combining gear. Some freedoms got a their old combining gear fixed after the New fix was already being rolled out. So if your friend is real, they either didn’t understand what work they had done to their ship, or you didn’t understand what they were telling you.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Only Yasen comes to mind.

Any 688 or Virginia can volley 15-16 missiles at you at the same time, then annoy you with another 3-4 every so often. Astutes are limited to 5-6 at a time, Seawolfs to 7-8. Yasen can throw 32x heavy AShMs and maybe another 9-10 lighter ones at a time if Kalibr can be launched through a torpedo tube. Lada-class can throw 5-6 at a time, Kilos 4-6. Han-class can throw 5-6, Shang-class 5-6, the ancient Ming-B class can volley 7-8 at a time, Type 039 5-6, Type 039A 5-6, ...

(I'm keeping one tube back for a snapshot emergency weapon in the lower numbers, upper numbers are loading every torpedo tube with a cruise missile).

Also, who said that we'd only be facing ONE sub? Need ~36-48 weapons thrown at once? Send subs out in a wolfpack until you have enough boats to throw that at once. Most of the countries that operate subs that would be attacking a US-escorted convoy have more than enough boats to do that.

But I think the original post was critical of the age of the P700 (800?) missile complex, not the boat. I believe at least some of the Oscars are being updated to take the most modern missiles.

Even if they are relatively old, a couple dozen P700s is going to absolutely wreck anything without Aegis. I've run the numbers before and giving Aegis a 0.5 Pk per missile it'd completely empty a Burke to stop a single volley.

 

[Josh_TN]

Any 688 or Virginia can volley 15-16 missiles at you at the same time, then annoy you with another 3-4 every so often. Astutes are limited to 5-6 at a time, Seawolfs to 7-8. Yasen can throw 32x heavy AShMs and maybe another 9-10 lighter ones at a time if Kalibr can be launched through a torpedo tube. Lada-class can throw 5-6 at a time, Kilos 4-6. Han-class can throw 5-6, Shang-class 5-6, the ancient Ming-B class can volley 7-8 at a time, Type 039 5-6, Type 039A 5-6, ...

(I'm keeping one tube back for a snapshot emergency weapon in the lower numbers, upper numbers are loading every torpedo tube with a cruise missile).

Also, who said that we'd only be facing ONE sub? Need ~36-48 weapons thrown at once? Send subs out in a wolfpack until you have enough boats to throw that at once. Most of the countries that operate subs that would be attacking a US-escorted convoy have more than enough boats to do that.

The original comment was “a couple dozen”.

I think you know how hard it is for multiple submarines to cooperate against a tactical target - it’s practically impossible.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The original comment was “a couple dozen”.

I think you know how hard it is for multiple submarines to cooperate against a tactical target - it’s practically impossible.

There are ways to make it work. They suck to implement, but it can be done.

Crud, the Germans made it work in WW2 with an FW-200 Condor as the controller and it giving radio orders to the subs in the wolfpack for where their target was.

 

[Firefinder]

Also heard some interesting thing bout Subs use of Starshield.

Basically due to that tight direction beam it gives subs a measure of stealth they didn't have before while communicating with base and each other. Need to be at periscope depth but that is generally launch depth so...

Shit is changing.

What was once a near impossible pita becames merely a slightly adnormal pita in military life...

 

[Josh_TN]

There are ways to make it work. They suck to implement, but it can be done.

Crud, the Germans made it work in WW2 with an FW-200 Condor as the controller and it giving radio orders to the subs in the wolfpack for where their target was.

Having a few boats show up at the place is not the same as organizing a time on target attack amongst multiple platforms.

In any case, I have no doubt the PRC will greatly expand its fleet of SSG and SSGN, so yes FFGX needs to be quite capable even for opponent sub launched missiles. Though I think Houthi and the Blowfish clearly demonstrate even a third tier/non state actor can potentially challenge full Aegis ships. Operating less capable frigates seems penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Having a few boats show up at the place is not the same as organizing a time on target attack amongst multiple platforms.

Radio message: "The attack starts at 1624Z. Be in position by 1600Z."

Though I think Houthi and the Blowfish clearly demonstrate even a third tier/non state actor can potentially challenge full Aegis ships. Operating less capable frigates seems penny wise and pound foolish.

for the name

And yes, the Houthi temper tantrums show the kinds of threats that a modern Frigate needs to be able to handle, just as a baseline in terms of competence.

 

[Josh_TN]

Radio message: "The attack starts at 1624Z. Be in position by 1600Z."




for the name

And yes, the Houthi temper tantrums show the kinds of threats that a modern Frigate needs to be able to handle, just as a baseline in terms of competence.

If everyone is able to receive radio messages and is tracking the same targets, or the radio messages include realtime position, course, and speed info, ok. But that seems like a really niche use case. Also, if you aren’t wearing a nuclear reactor, the chances of submarines converging on a moving target are almost nil: the wolf packs ran on the surface at 20 knots. A modern D/E is effectively a 5kt boat except for sprints.

But while I bit pick on details, we agree in principle: a modern frigate needs a full up area defense system just for second tier defense. And having what is effectively your second rate ship of the line unable to completely network with your first rates is batshit stupid; that modest up front unit cost is not what drains the money, but it is exactly what makes the total force less capable. Unless you think the FFGX is never go to touch a CSG or even a SAG, you better make it network into NIFCCA.

 

[Scott Kenny]

If everyone is able to receive radio messages and is tracking the same targets, or the radio messages include realtime position, course, and speed info, ok. But that seems like a really niche use case. Also, if you aren’t wearing a nuclear reactor, the chances of submarines converging on a moving target are almost nil: the wolf packs ran on the surface at 20 knots. A modern D/E is effectively a 5kt boat except for sprints.

D/E or AIP boats do what diesel subs have done for over a century now: set themselves at various places where the targets MUST PASS. straits, gap between a couple of islands, at one of the few deep channels in an area full of shoals, whatever.

And radio messages have been set up to give that information passively since the 1970s, IIRC. On top of VLF/ELF radios to act as a "pager" to tell specific sub(s) to come get more detailed radio traffic.

 

[Josh_TN]

D/E or AIP boats do what diesel subs have done for over a century now: set themselves at various places where the targets MUST PASS. straits, gap between a couple of islands, at one of the few deep channels in an area full of shoals, whatever.

And radio messages have been set up to give that information passively since the 1970s, IIRC. On top of VLF/ELF radios to act as a "pager" to tell specific sub(s) to come get more detailed radio traffic.

Nothing I’d plan a war around. But perhaps the other side would.

 

[timmymagic]

Seawolfs to 7-8

Seawolfs have no missile capability whatsoever now....no Tomahawk TTL's are left in US inventory....its torpedo's only.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Seawolfs have no missile capability whatsoever now....no Tomahawk TTL's are left in US inventory....its torpedo's only.

Right, forgot the US let all tube Tomahawks die. Fucking dumbasses.

 

[Josh_TN]

Right, forgot the US let all tube Tomahawks die. Fucking dumbasses.

We’re three tomahawks ever going to make or break a strike?

 

[Scott Kenny]

We’re three tomahawks ever going to make or break a strike?

They turn a 12-bird strike into 15, or you can shoot a longer string of ~20+ with some time on target planning.

 

[Ainen]

Any 688 or Virginia can volley 15-16 missiles at you at the same time, then annoy you with another 3-4 every so often. Astutes are limited to 5-6 at a time, Seawolfs to 7-8. Yasen can throw 32x heavy AShMs and maybe another 9-10 lighter ones at a time if Kalibr can be launched through a torpedo tube. Lada-class can throw 5-6 at a time, Kilos 4-6. Han-class can throw 5-6, Shang-class 5-6, the ancient Ming-B class can volley 7-8 at a time, Type 039 5-6, Type 039A 5-6, ...

If Yasen for some unknown reason decided to throw big salvo at your frigate (and effectively neuter itself as a SSGN), frigate(and frankly any single surface ship) is most likely dead. Or, rather, it may make more sense to try toss a coin and just hide behind countermeasures.

For others...yes, 12-16 unit salvo is sort of normal expected strike - and something to plan against.

 

[Scott Kenny]

If Yasen for some unknown reason decided to throw big salvo at your frigate (and effectively neuter itself as a SSGN), frigate(and frankly any single surface ship) is most likely dead. Or, rather, it may make more sense to try toss a coin and just hide behind countermeasures.

For others...yes, 12-16 unit salvo is sort of normal expected strike - and something to plan against.

Not so much a Yasen throwing a full salvo at the frigate, but throwing a full salvo at what the frigate is protecting.

 

[Firefinder]

If Yasen for some unknown reason decided to throw big salvo at your frigate (and effectively neuter itself as a SSGN), frigate(and frankly any single surface ship) is most likely dead. Or, rather, it may make more sense to try toss a coin and just hide behind countermeasures.

For others...yes, 12-16 unit salvo is sort of normal expected strike - and something to plan against.

The usual DOCTRINE role for Russian SSGNs IS shooting its missiles at USN Ships or Ships under USN protection.

With the Frigate doing the second part of protecting said ships.

That is their role as Anti ship Platforms. So yes there is a know reason for a Yasen to yeet all its missiles in a Constellation direction.

Throw in that the Connie be working as part of a fleet?

 

[Ainen]

Not so much a Yasen throwing a full salvo at the frigate, but throwing a full salvo at what the frigate is protecting.

Something worth so much shouldn't be protected with one frigate. Concentrating so much AA capability as to reliably process such a salvo on every frigate is unsustainable, and, frankly, unlikely to be possible.
It isn't possible for to throw such salvos on a whim anyway.

It's impossible for every combatant to be Burke - result is not enough surface combatants. It is impossible for every rank and file boat to be a 14'000 SSGN - result is just butchered SSN procurement.

The usual DOCTRINE role for Russian SSGNs IS shooting its missiles at USN Ships or Ships under USN protection.

The only realistic scenario Yasen will offload its full salvo is coordinated salvo against main target. It's something reserved for SAGs at least, more desireably for CSGs. Reverse side of high capability is that Yasens turned into de facto secondary deterrent.

Sending such salvo is a very high risk for a boat; tsirkons don't grow on birch trees, especially when already on patrol.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Something worth so much shouldn't be protected with one frigate. Concentrating so much AA capability as to reliably process such a salvo on every frigate is unsustainable, and, frankly, unlikely to be possible.
It isn't possible for to throw such salvos on a whim anyway.

There may only be one frigate in the direction of the incoming salvo (and in range to intercept), even if there are 6-8 frigates escorting the convoy. Subs are not like Long Range Naval Aviation that only have one real route of approach to your convoy.

Not to forget the most recent Houthi temper tantrums, throwing a mix of ballistic, cruise missiles, drones, USVs, and idiots I mean pirates. Doesn't sound like any individual attack is over 20 incoming, but that's still a lot of stuff to face for days at a time.

The only realistic scenario Yasen will offload its full salvo is coordinated salvo against main target. It's something reserved for SAGs at least, but more desireably for CSGs.

And an American combat supply convoy going to Europe would be high on the list of targets.

Or for the Chinese equivalent, an American supply convoy going to Taiwan.

Sending such salvo is a very high risk for a boat; tsirkons don't grow on birch trees, especially when already on patrol.

Yes, and if you use up all your missiles you go home and reload. That's how that works. There should be another SSGN coming out to replace you on patrol once your weapons are exhausted.

 

[Ainen]

There may only be one frigate in the direction of the incoming salvo (and in range to intercept), even if there are 6-8 frigates escorting the convoy. Subs are not like Long Range Naval Aviation that only have one real route of approach to your convoy.

Not to forget the most recent Houthi temper tantrums, throwing a mix of ballistic, cruise missiles, drones, USVs, and idiots I mean pirates. Doesn't sound like any individual attack is over 20 incoming, but that's still a lot of stuff to face for days at a time.

One frigate in the direction isn't the same as one frigate intercepting, even if it's low altitude threat; NIFC-CA.
But overall, if something is so valuable you expect this level of threat - use multiple Burkes, better also consider providing E-2 and F-35s overhead(those also will most probably get you launch point as a bonus).

As for Houthis - that's the problem. If the goal is to prepare for Russian salvo in Houthi/Iranian numbers, on rear convoy, and then run such ships even in Southern Atlantic - US will bankrupt itself, yet still won't achieve necessary escort force.
The only place where such threat is possible is Eastpac, and generally this is areas where you can't survive. It's possible, potentially (there is historical precedent, albeit against much weaker opponent) to slowly attrit and degrade such capability. But that's it.

The trick for a frigate is to provide a reasonable mix - to be able to deter some high level threat, normal medium level threat, and significant numbers of low threat; plus has ample self-defense capability and multipurpose strike.
Failing at any level is failure.
And Constellation tries to fit this rather contradicting task at an affordable pricepoint (almost 1/3 of burke flight 3?).

And an American combat supply convoy going to Europe would be high on the list of targets.

Or for the Chinese equivalent, an American supply convoy going to Taiwan.

As we now know, even Soviet SSGNs weren't really all that interested in US convoys, only torpedo boats were.
For Russia, highly prised Yasens are most certainly not convoy hunters. At least not in Atlantic.

American convoy going to Taiwan can be engaged from mainland China. Furthermore, we're at a point where PLAN can probably just block you physically.
I.e. you're describing Mahanian decisive action. This isn't something single frigate should be expected to do and achieve. More like entire deployable USN. Granted, constellations can be used for close escort of such convoy, but they aren't main force.

 

[Scott Kenny]

One frigate in the direction isn't the same as one frigate intercepting, even if it's low altitude threat; NIFC-CA.
But overall, if something is so valuable you expect this level of threat - use multiple Burkes, better also consider providing E-2 and F-35s overhead(those also will most probably get you launch point as a bonus).

If you have the Burkes to spare, sure.

Though these days I suspect that the more likely thing would be to tell the 30-knot merchants to scatter to avoid subs and planes and haul ass. It's just short of 4000nmi from New York to Antwerp. At 30 knots speed of advance that distance can be covered in 135 hours. 5 and a half days. Leave NY Harbor at dawn Monday, arrive at Antwerp Harbor sunset Saturday.

Subs would hate trying to get in front of a bunch of ships doing that. It'd effectively reduce any submarine threat to random contact.

As for Houthis - that's the problem. If the goal is to prepare for Russian salvo in Houthi/Iranian numbers, on rear convoy, and then run such ships even in Southern Atlantic - US will bankrupt itself, yet still won't achieve necessary escort force.
The only place where such threat is possible is Eastpac, and generally this is areas where you can't survive. It's possible, potentially (there is historical precedent, albeit against much weaker opponent) to slowly attrit and degrade such capability. But that's it.

The trick for a frigate is to provide a reasonable mix - to be able to deter some high level threat, normal medium level threat, and significant numbers of low threat; plus has ample self-defense capability and multipurpose strike.
Failing at any level is failure.
And Constellation tries to fit this rather contradicting task at an affordable pricepoint (almost 1/3 of burke flight 3?).

The Houthi threat isn't in terms of single throw weight.

The Houthi threat is in terms of throw weight over time. Ships transiting the Suez spend roughly 3 days within range of Houthi weapons. Even if you're only getting 3-5 weapons thrown at you at a time, 3-5 weapons every half hour or so for 3 days will exhaust a ship's missiles.

As we now know, even Soviet SSGNs weren't really all that interested in US convoys, only torpedo boats were.
For Russia, highly prised Yasens are most certainly not convoy hunters. At least not in Atlantic.

Then the Russian war planners are STUPID. A merchant convoy with tens of millions of tons of war supplies is worth a lot more than a single carrier group.

American convoy going to Taiwan can be engaged from mainland China. Furthermore, we're at a point where PLAN can probably just block you physically.
I.e. you're describing Mahanian decisive action. This isn't something single frigate should be expected to do and achieve. More like entire deployable USN. Granted, constellations can be used for close escort of such convoy, but they aren't main force.

PLAN physically blocking civilian ships absent a declared war is a great way to start one.

 

[Ainen]

The Houthi threat isn't in terms of single throw weight.

The Houthi threat is in terms of throw weight over time. Ships transiting the Suez spend roughly 3 days within range of Houthi weapons. Even if you're only getting 3-5 weapons thrown at you at a time, 3-5 weapons every half hour or so for 3 days will exhaust a ship's missiles.

Houthi can't throw all that much over extended period of time, they don't have mini-China under the mountain.

This is why their "over time" is measured in days, aimed at random ships (not random, but for simplicity sake) in small-medium scale attacks. From time to time.

Exhausting weapon stocks isn't really their strategy(it's a bad strategy, they don't have production or stocks to not exhaust themselves). Their strategy is exhausting the force by forcing it to be there, and still lose (getting insurance rates too high is simple).
When houthis will really aim for kills, they don't launch over time, they concentrate. Just like everyone. Saturating any defense isn't magic, it's an Excel spreadsheet any decent officer can run.

But for now, the very presence of red sea force is a win for them. They aren't choking Israel, they're biting at international community's will. As a bonus also biting at its high tier weapon stocks and readiness.

Then the Russian war planners are STUPID. A merchant convoy with tens of millions of tons of war supplies is worth a lot more than a single carrier group.

CSG threaten bastions, bastions are the only naval threat Russia is afraid of. For better or worse, different countries think differently, and Russia never aimed at tonnage war in the German way(which Germany happened to lose twice, btw - be careful whom you copy).
Even modern "medium" SSGNs are irreplaceable for modern Russia, Yasens are absurdly expensive boats.
And "heavy" Oskars were too much even for Soviet shipbuilding.
Those aren't trade war assets.

PLAN physically blocking civilian ships absent a declared war is a great way to start one.

Since you're escorting convoy to Taiwan and expect weapon use, yes, it's a war.
Moreover, since we're talking about constellations, it's 2030s and USN in eastPAC is probably in a position of an underdog.

"Taiwan convoy" requirement is either too high(no frigate force will achieve it), or just right for the ships as they are(as they're close escort to a convoy, covered by a major fleet operation, and as such are only responsible for leakers).

 

[Firefinder]

CSG threaten bastions, bastions are the only naval threat Russia is afraid of. For better or worse, different countries think differently, and Russia never aimed at tonnage war in the German way(which Germany happened to lose twice, btw - be careful whom you copy).
Even modern "medium" SSGNs are irreplaceable for modern Russia, Yasens are absurdly expensive boats.
And "heavy" Oskars were too much even for Soviet shipbuilding.
Those aren't trade war assets.

And convoys loaded with War Material threatens Moscow by keeping the Army Groups moving up. Moscow falls those Bastions are useless which was part of Nato over all plan of keeping those SSBNs tubes CLOSED.

Plus any convoy force or CSG force WILL have Frigates at least two as Gap fillers to help cover the Burkes blindspots.

From what I recall the USN really wants enough Frigates to have 4 guarding a CVN in a Triangle formation to the Burkes square and enough to have 4 around a convoy with a Burke being the Flag. Or have those four around an Amphib force

That will hamper any attack on those assets and push the Force need ensure that they are Stop to Absurd levels.

Since the Frigates need to do all the above they need to be able to hang in there.

Thus the SPY6s on the Connies, the Euros AESA, and similar looking systems on the chinese 54. All 4 types are expected to see a mass missile attack and help knock down a decent amount.

 

[Ainen]

And convoys loaded with War Material threatens Moscow by keeping the Army Groups moving up. Moscow falls those Bastions are useless which was part of Nato over all plan of keeping those SSBNs tubes CLOSED.

Plus any convoy force or CSG force WILL have Frigates at least two as Gap fillers to help cover the Burkes blindspots.

This is inputting your thoughts into your opponent. And force levels that are just not there.

Red banner northern fleet has just 3 modern SSGNs (will be 5 by constellation times); it isn't exactly same force as it was 35 years ago, nor it tries to be one.

It is not a force aimed at interdiction campaign.
Don't think from the point of view of a united force with 3 dozens modern SSNs spread between 3 navies. Nor from a point of view of a force with ~100+ escort combatants in search of mission - you're just justifying mission.

Iran is squarely aimed at attacking choke points and making maritime trade stop. China isn't really, but they're at least rapidly building a force capable of it.

Russia most certainly isn't, since Sevmash and Amur launched their last multirole boats. The point of bastions (which are atm more of safe staging points) is that if Russia gets invaded and starts losing big, bastions will make convoy operations (and Moscow invasion) the very last of your concerns, even if you're to press big button first.

 

[Firefinder]

This is inputting your thoughts into your opponent. And force levels that are just not there.

Red banner northern fleet has just 3 modern SSGNs (will be 5 by constellation times); it isn't exactly same force as it was 35 years ago, nor it tries to be one.

It is not a force aimed at interdiction campaign.
Don't think from the point of view of a united force with 3 dozens modern SSNs spread between 3 navies. Nor from a point of view of a force with ~100+ escort combatants in search of mission - you're just justifying mission.

Iran is squarely aimed at attacking choke points and making maritime trade stop. China isn't really, but they're at least rapidly building a force capable of it.

Russia most certainly isn't, since Sevmash and Amur launched their last multirole boats. The point of bastions (which are atm more of safe staging points) is that if Russia gets invaded and starts losing big, bastions will make convoy operations (and Moscow invasion) the very last of your concerns, even if you're to press big button first.

And you ignoring operational realities of real life and needs of the Tactics used.

First even if all three don't work together they will try to take advantage of one Sheniganiuns to do whatever they want. So yes you do need to consider all 3 forces combine cause you will be likely dealing with all 3 at the same time.

Now the Bastions are not Secured at all. Between the Land base planes, carriers forces, and triple the number of Virginias the SSBNs will be sunk before they get to their submerge points when the Nato decides to switch tacs from Containment to MURDER. Russai as you point out is a shadow of the force it was and cannot stop that. A set of CSGs with an argument force of 16 surface escorts each will smash any resistance before the Russians know what happening.

And a force of a handful of Connies with a few Burkes backup with ground base aircraft is more than good enough to keep Iran from trying to close the one choke point they realistic can. And it been shown that you need high end gear to stop that thanks to the Houthis. Assuming triple the weapon usage of the Red Sea Furbar? You need at least 3 sets of 8 ships, 6 Connies and 2 Burkes, so 24 to keep up a 24 hour watch.

While China IS building a force to keep the USN from stopping whatever they are planning as we speak, otherwise they will not be spam building 3 different classes of high-end ships for their duties. As well as having a massive amount of weapons who sole purposed is smacking the CSGs. With there be a decent need for a faster built ship to cover down for the Burkes.

Assuming again the old usual 4 frigates amount per CVN? The USN prefers 8 escorts, 4 ffgs and 4 ddgs, per Flattop since then you can have a ship on each compass heading. Theres 40 right there, and another 40 for the Amphibious fleet. 80 Frigates to Properly protect the big boats.

So there you need of 100 plus frigates.

Which Ironically is similar to the amount of Frigates the US had between the Perrys and the Knox's in the 1980s and early 90s.

 

[Ainen]

And you ignoring operational realities of real life and needs of the Tactics used.

Northern fleet built or will receive:
-6 SSBN
5(?) special mission submarines
-5 SSGN
-9 SSK
-4 new FFG

Does it look like composition for another battle of Atlantic?

With MLUs, add one CGN, carrier and a a bunch of additional FFGs. Maybe half a dozen more SSN/SSGN. Those are dated combatants anyway.

NF just isn't going out on Clancy missions. Everything else is open denial of reality.

Now the Bastions are not Secured at all. Between the Land base planes, carriers forces, and triple the number of Virginias the SSBNs will be sunk before they get to their submerge points when the Nato decides to switch tacs from Containment to MURDER.

Try, see them launch and get whole northern hemisphere roasted, I guess?
Bastions are indeed weak, but this isn't exactly good news. They're just more trigger happy.

What's the point of caps if you know the result. I honestly disapprove.

And a force of a handful of Connies with a few Burkes backup with ground base aircraft is more than good enough to keep Iran from trying to close the one choke point they realistic can.

This is a minimum needed presence, necessary due to piracy, Houthis and Iranian boardings.
This is absolutely necessary, and constellation class indeed is a huge step ahead of Burkes in this regard (as are some allied assets, like T31).

But

If Iran will really be cornered into closing the gulf, it won't stop it. You'll need to defeat the whole nation with it's rather unconventional symmetrical/assymetric force composition, and this isn't a task the force you described can achieve.
IRGN alone is a very big and, by now, quite sophisticated force, covered from the shore.
You may view them as much more capable analog of distributed future force everyone is trying to build ("usv") - just built seriously, and relying on still superior natural intelligence.

Days when they could be simply mantis'ed are long over. And while in the past US tried to concentrate on this environment, it ultimately failed.

Systems destined for this environment, designed to straighten up roll up Iran away from its own coast, didn't really achieve design goals(LCS, Zumwalt). And now US is firmly looking at China as its opponent. There is no attention to spare anymore.

While China IS building a force to keep the USN from stopping whatever they are planning as we speak, otherwise they will not be spam building 3 different classes of high-end ships for their duties.

China can stop USN from whatever it is planning right now - their local order of battle is already sufficient to fight and defeat deployable USN with allies in a direct confrontation.

What they're building is a navy second to none - and, other than big carriers, everything indicates by 2035 they will be there.

 

[johnpjones1775]

And convoys loaded with War Material threatens Moscow by keeping the Army Groups moving up. Moscow falls those Bastions are useless which was part of Nato over all plan of keeping those SSBNs tubes CLOSED.

Plus any convoy force or CSG force WILL have Frigates at least two as Gap fillers to help cover the Burkes blindspots.

From what I recall the USN really wants enough Frigates to have 4 guarding a CVN in a Triangle formation to the Burkes square and enough to have 4 around a convoy with a Burke being the Flag. Or have those four around an Amphib force

That will hamper any attack on those assets and push the Force need ensure that they are Stop to Absurd levels.

Since the Frigates need to do all the above they need to be able to hang in there.

Thus the SPY6s on the Connies, the Euros AESA, and similar looking systems on the chinese 54. All 4 types are expected to see a mass missile attack and help knock down a decent amount.

Lmao, we will never have that many FFGs in our lifetimes.

to have 4 FFGs per CSG, you’d need 24 at least most likely 36 for the who 3=1 concept.

The navy is already talking about canceling the FFG program behind the scenes completely or leaving it at the initial order of 20 at most.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The navy is already talking about canceling the FFG program behind the scenes completely or leaving it at the initial order of 20 at most.

And that's really [3.2TB of expletives deleted] stupid.

 

[Ainen]

And that's really [3.2TB of expletives deleted] stupid.

Next time will certainly be better!

 

[DWG]

Any 688 or Virginia can volley 15-16 missiles at you at the same time, then annoy you with another 3-4 every so often.

Depends on how much of their magazine depth they've devoted to anti-ship missiles, vs Mk 48 and land-attack Tomahawk. More than one additional attack may be pushing it.

 

[DWG]

Northern fleet built or will receive:
...
With MLUs, add one CGN, carrier and a a bunch of additional FFGs.

I'm seriously doubtful of Admiral Kusnetsov ever making it out of refit. Even if she does, Russia's not had an operational carrier since 2017, and the crew have reportedly been assigned to the front in Ukraine since last year (at least). Even without that last FUBAR they've lost their practical experience in operating aircraft from a carrier and will need to learn it again (or ask the Chinese to help).

 

[Ainen]

It only reinforces the point, NF is not an offensive force, neither by force design, nor by allocation of attention.

Yes, Russia could have achieved a lot by making it one. But it does not.

Just enough to retain basic functionality of boomers and remind of itself with small deployments - during peacetime.

 

[Josh_TN]

I'm seriously doubtful of Admiral Kusnetsov ever making it out of refit. Even if she does, Russia's not had an operational carrier since 2017, and the crew have reportedly been assigned to the front in Ukraine since last year (at least). Even without that last FUBAR they've lost their practical experience in operating aircraft from a carrier and will need to learn it again (or ask the Chinese to help).

Kuznetsov has always been a prestige project rather than a practical military resource IMO. I agree, he probably will not return to service.

 

[Archdude]

Kuznetsov has always been a prestige project rather than a practical military resource IMO. I agree, he probably will not return to service.

Agree!

 

[johnpjones1775]

And that's really [3.2TB of expletives deleted] stupid.

Idk, not if we end up getting an escort that’s actually affordable and can do the job without having overkill for capability.

 

[SK2]

Idk, not if we end up getting an escort that’s actually affordable and can do the job without having overkill for capability.

The G&C designed frigate promoted to Aussies and currently building in Taiwan seems to be quite affordable

 

[TomS]

The G&C designed frigate promoted to Aussies and currently building in Taiwan seems to be quite affordable

They are remarkable tight though, to the extent that the AAW version has 8 VLS cells for 32 ESSM-class missiles and the ASW version has none at all (just 16 SAMs in box launchers). The ASW version has towed sonar and torpedoes, but the AAW version has nothing in that department at all. These are ships that can only function in flotillas and with either land-based air cover or serious long-range air defense ships supporting them.

And they surely do not have the accomodations space and endurance for 6-month deployments like the USN makes.

 

[Ainen]

They are remarkable tight though, to the extent that the AAW version has 8 VLS cells for 32 ESSM-class missiles and the ASW version has none at all (just 16 SAMs in box launchers).

If I understand correctly, all these ROCN ships carry up to to 64 inclined TC-2N, as every position is fully modular.
Exceeding 16 is more pointless/expensive rather than impossible.

 

[Cordy]

Congress is planning savage cuts to Constellation budget to the end of FY25 by reducing Continuing Resolution from $1.17 billion to $100 million, reflecting their disgust with the Navy over their handling of the program.
Ship was ordered April 2020, nearly two and a half years later August 2022 build was authorized with Adm Morton falsely claiming 80% detail design complete but when the GAO reported May 2024, twenty one months later not in one of the 30 odd Grand Modules of the build had the detail design been 100% completed, Navy has not revealed the current state of play and if they have completed design of any of the Grand Modules.
Now the program is running three years late, overweight and over cost (appearing mainly to impact Fincantieri Marinette Marinetti as they signed a fixed price contract !), no wonder the Far Eastern Shipyards insist amongst other things 100% design is complete before commencing build.

https://news.usni.org/2025/03/10/continuing-resolution-proposal-boosts-destroyers-by-1-5b-trims-funds-for-frigate-carriers

 

[bring_it_on]

Congress can continue to trim funds and then cry about how we don't have enough ships a few years later. We're kind of back to square one..with no real viable plan to field more surface combatants in the next 10-15 year time horizon (setting aside the political rhetoric)... Congress is an equal partner on that blame. If they were remotely interested in expanding the surface combatant fleet they should be accelerating the Frigate investments to complete design and open production up for other yards so that we can build this think at the LCS rate of 4 per year at a minimum. Right now, unless the Navy is allowed to (there too I think Congress has trimmed investments) go big on unmanned it is destined to shrink or be forced to operate old and outdated ships.