F-117A prior to unveiling: artists impressions and kits of the 'F-19 Stealth Fighter' in mass culture

[shedofdread]

^ Yes, that's the one I had in mind

S

 

[OM]

^ Yes, that's the one I had in mind

...Anyone else reminded of the Flying Sub on a Lydecker Rig while watching that clip?

 

[Triton]

Loral Aerospace F-19 model found on eBay.

URL:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1980s-Stealth-Fighter-Factory-Concept-Loral-F-19A-not-Topping-EXCELLENT-/200658259841?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb82a0f81

Seller's description:

Loral Aerospace commissioned a run of several dozen of these models in 1981 to promote its passive digital electronics suites to aerospace companies secretly designing stealthy aircraft and ships. People knew a stealth fighter (later revealed as F-117) was flying but didn't know its shape yet. Loral ordered two versions--silver and black. Loral CEO Bernard Schwartz was photographed with this on his desk. Fuselage length is about 15" and wingspan is 10". The deep black paint is finished with a very high gloss coat. All decals are perfect; only flaw on the model is a tiny paint chip. Stand is in excellent shape also, with some unobtrusive scratches on the bottom since it never had any pads.

 

[Stargazer]

The pics:

 

[Stargazer]

The original Loral ads and promo material using the design (please note the different, unblended canards in the first depiction):

 

[circle-5]

One bidder asks an interesting question: "Does the paint chip increase the radar cross-section?"

 

[Stargazer]

One bidder asks an interesting question: "Does the paint chip increase the radar cross-section?"

Yep, and the seller's full answer is quite funny too:

Exact figures are classified, but loss of that radar absorbent material chip indeed degraded the monostatic RCS profile significantly at the Helendale range. As a result I decided to bring the entire F-19A Spector program out of the black world. First step was de-accessioning this model from its secure vault beneath Groom Lake. I am authorized to reveal that non-PayPal offers were immediately made by John Cashio; a mid-level apparatchik at Sukhoi; and an apparent animal rights group calling itself The Skunk Works. After careful study by the procurement team that managed the USAF tanker bids for a decade, I decided to instead offer it to the eBay model collector community, known to be notoriously secretive about the origins of its own assets. Thanks for a great laugh, chuckandconnie!

 

[flateric]

F-19s (Sweetman's/Badrocke concept, Loral concept based Monogram 1:48 model. and Testors model, too) made their appearance in 1988 spy comedy 'Zits' by [font=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]Arthur Sherman with Ilya Baskin as russian spy Timoshenko[/font]
[font=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]if you can borrow a copy on VHS (no DVD was ever released) you will spent some nice time back in 80s
[/font]
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096509/reviews

 

[dannydale]

I remember seeing plastic toy models of something like the Loral F-19 back in the late 80s-early 90s. They were sold at this yellow and stainless-steel monstrosity of a supermarket chain called The Real Superstore. They were nearly as garish: black with flourescent orange cockpit canopy, missiles, intakes, and exhaust! ???

 

[AAAdrone]

I have a little die-cast toy of that F-19 fighter too. Ah, the memories.

 

[Jemiba]

I have a little die-cast toy of that F-19 fighter too. Ah, the memories.

They are all around ! ;D

 

[The Artist]

And in different colors. Mine is overall light lime green with light yellow and black trim

 

[AAAdrone]

Mine's the typical black. It's a newer toy.

 

[antigravite]

117th Intelligence Squadron Patch using a Northrop / Loral F19 Specter concept art design

 

[airrocket]

The Loral (Northtop) F-19 was the real deal it did exist the models you see are very close to the actual design planform. The Testor's F-19 is more of a fantasy model which has taken on the F-19 mystic while the real F-19 is the Loral. It did exist as a real concept and very likely it did fly and perhaps one is still out there..... It is a direct Grandparent of the YF-23 much of the Loral was translated to the B2 and YF-23. And much of the stealth incorporated in to the Loral design is period correct its place in stealth evolution.

The Loral F-19 planform has been flown as an RC EDF and way back in the day prior to the modern micro gyro's as an all composite large scale late 80's scratch built messy old gas powered ducted fan flown by "seat-of-the -pants".

So yes that planform can fly and rather well actually. Modern micro gyro's allow it to fly very solid and smooth as an RC model just as a real one may have back in the day.

The Loral F-19 was mostly based on "source distribution technique" like the B-2 rather than the the angular faceted method. If one is familiar with source distribution you will recognize it clearly at play in the planform shape of the Loral models and art work.

The Loral F-19 is much more accepted as being a reality in the mainstream today.

All the pieces of the Loral F-19 fit very nicely into the F-19 puzzle... I believe so because they belong there.

This is a case where the legend is much more of a mystery than the reality.

 

[Stargazer]

The Loral (Northrop) F-19 (...) did exist as a real concept and very likely it did fly and perhaps one is still out there.

I am convinced that there WAS an F-19 aircraft that had nothing to do with the F-117, and this for several reasons:
[list type=decimal]
[*]The skipping of "F-19" makes no sense. The stealth program was not that much of a secret until the late 1970s. Work on Have Blue was hinted at as early as 1973 or 1974. The "F-19" slot corresponds to that period when stealth was in development but not yet top secret. It is likely that whatever the "F-19" was, the designation was made secret as an afterthought.

[*]The F-117 never was a fighter but an attack aircraft and therefore belonged in the A- class. It could NOT have been the "F-19".

[*]In the early days of the internet, I saved a whole page of very detailed specs for the F-19 fighter from the website of a perfectly serious and genuine aircraft supplier that allegedly provided parts for the type and had no reason to make up the whole thing.

[*]If stealth attack and the bomber demonstrators were created, it makes little sense that stealth would not have been tested on a fighter design.
[/list]Besides, several aerospace companies such as Loral or Hughes featured designs of unknown combat planes in the midst of other well identified types on posters and ads showing the programs they were involved in.I have doubt however that the Northrop/Loral design (which was shown in the Loral ads and also became the Testors model) is the real one. Looks too sci-fi to me, and besides there is no reason why Northrop and Loral would have disclosed the real design in their ads at a time when stealth had become highly secret. The real item must have been a lot less impressive...

 

[Arjen]

I read somewhere - possibly on spf, alzheimer light kicking in - that Northrop wanted the F-20 designation for its F-5 derivative. Because that would make the Tigershark the first Twenty-something fighter, in stead of the last Teen-fighter.

 

[Stargazer]

I read somewhere - possibly on spf, alzheimer light kicking in - that Northrop wanted the F-20 designation for its F-5 derivative. Because that would make the Tigershark the first Twenty-something fighter, in stead of the last Teen-fighter.

Heard that one too, but that doesn't mean F-19 had to be skipped. Apart from the Fisher P-75 Eagle that followed the Republic P-72, designations are rarely skipped... Apart from the *-13 designations (for superstitious reasons), most are used. Sometimes a number is skipped after several submissions were made and rejected (the C-16 for instance) but mostly that doesn't happen. The jump from F-23 to F-35 may have resulted from an official mistake, but it could also be a convenient way not to have to raise questions about the numbers in-between (we know for instance that there WAS a YF-24A though no-one knows what it was).

 

[GTX]

we know for instance that there WAS a YF-24A though no-one knows what it was

We do?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

People have mixed up two lines from Joe Lanni's biography:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050318164828/http://www.edwards.af.mil/units/bio/lanni-bio.html

Aircraft flown include: F-4C-E, F-5E, F-15, F-16A-D, F-14, F-18, HH-60G, F/A-22, YF-24

and

Conducted first flights of two classified prototype aircraft

Into believing YF-24 was a designation for a classified prototype stealth aircraft.

In fact, YF-24 seems to have been a cover designation for US evalation of an Su-27. It may or may not be one of the two "classified prototype aircraft" mentioned.

Lanni was involved with the "Red Hats" so its certain that he flew foreign aircraft in the 1992 - 1997 period.

 

[_Del_]

I'm game that the YF-24 may have represented the SU-27 in inventory, but you lose me suggesting that may qualify as one of the "prototype" aircraft.

I'm not completely convinced that the YF-24 designation wasn't applied to the SU-27 for convenience after that little tidbit appeared in print either, but I confess that I love a good conspiracy.

 

[Triton]

G.I. Joe X-19 Phantom Stealth Fighter toy released by Hasbro in 1988. Design clearly influenced by the Loral advertisement. "Ghost Rider" was the callsign of the pilot action figure.

Source:
http://www.hisstank.com/forum/members/cobra-khan-albums-operation+ghost+strike-picture19851-x-19-primary-target-operation-ghost-strike.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Hasbro-GI-Joe-Phantom-X-19-Stealth-Fighter-MISB-Factory-Sealed-/261198315309

http://www.hisstank.com/forum/g-i-joe-toys-vintage-discussion/53452-x-19-phantom-appreciation-thread-3.html

 

[Triton]

Additional photos of G.I. Joe X-19 Phantom Stealth Fighter toy released by Hasbro in 1988.

Source:
http://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/88/phantom/

 

[Triton]

Additional photos of G.I. Joe X-19 Phantom Stealth Fighter toy released by Hasbro in 1988.

Source:
http://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/88/phantom/

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

A small piece of my childhood.




http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-1983-SUPER-DYNA-FLITES-NEW-MOC-DIE-CAST-METAL-AIRCRAFT-STEALTH-FIGHTER-/171081606249?pt=Diecast_Vehicles&hash=item27d5422469

 

[bagera3005]

blueprint of x-19 gi-joe

 

[Richard N]

A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out.
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces. He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone).

 

[Stargazer]

A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out.
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces. He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone).

Possibly a desktop model of the Northrop XST?

 

[Richard N]

A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out.
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces. He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone).

Possibly a desktop model of the Northrop XST?

I think he would have mentioned what is was if it was recognizable as something he knew of. I'll ask him the next time I see him and find out which Nationals it was.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out.
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces. He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone).

I made a faceted model in 1986ish as a 13 year old kid after reading Bill Sweetman's book "Stealth" which described the "F-19" as being faceted. I achieved this by taking a 1/72 Italeri F-19 model and generous amounts of milliput (epoxy putty) and various plastic implements to get sharp facets. Planform alignment wasn't on my radar though and my facets were quite small - it would have been something like a 30 spike RCS. I got one half looking vaguely interesting but had no idea how to make the other half match. If only I'd owned a computer with CAD software and a mirror command....

 

[Stargazer]

I think he would have mentioned what is was if it was recognizable as something he knew of. I'll ask him the next time I see him and find out which Nationals it was.

But if we're talking about before the first F-117 pic was revealed, it means the Northrop design wasn't known either (unless of course you're implying that your friend's employer WAS Northrop and that therefore he would have known what it was).

 

[hesham]

From the Report; Retraite anticipée pour un avion extraordinaire


a good artist drawing to Lockheed F-19.

 

[fightingirish]

After unveiling F-117A heavily mastered photo in 10th November, 1988, numerous attempts were made to imagine fighter 3-view and understand how all this faceted stuff situated.
First one comes from guru Bill Sweetman, with an additional effort from Interavia magazine artist to reveal facets at official photo. (c) Bill Sweetman/Interavia (January, 1989)

Other drawings from his earlier article "USAF reveals the F-117A stealth fighter", published in Interavia December 1988, page 1221.

 

[hesham]

Great find my dear Rolf.

 

[fightingirish]

Cutaways god Mike Badrocke's and Bill Sweetman's collective impressions of a 'stealth fighter'. It was 1986 on the backyard. Already then Sweetman was aknowledged that real aircraft use faceting LO technology.
(Bill Sweetman 'Stealth Aircraft: Secrets of Future Airpower', Motorbooks International, 1986)

Source: Bill Sweetman 'Stealth Aircraft: Secrets of Future Airpower', Motorbooks International, 1986, page 67 & 68

 

[Jeb]

From the Report; Retraite anticipée pour un avion extraordinaire


a good artist drawing to Lockheed F-19.

I still have this one in die-cast.

 

[hesham]

Hi Jeb,


here is anther drawing to Lockheed F-19,from Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1986-1987.

 

[JimK]

Here is the source of the three-view drawing which appeared 'way back in Reply #2. I have included the story that accompanied it. Unfortunately I cannot recall the name of the magazine, which is abbreviated on the text page as "S & D 92". From some of the expressions in the text, it appears that English was not the author's first language. The illustrator goes by the name JODA, unless that is an acronym. The article appeared in 1984 and while the drawing is way off, the article got many things right, so that, at the time, I thought that it had revealed the mythical F-19. I have no idea as to what a "lamellar intake" could be (made up of thin plates?). It repeats in text and drawing the story that the airplane should fit inside a C-5.

 

[Steve Pace]

bogus

 

[HeavyG]

The magazine "S&D" refers to "Strategy and Defence" which was a legitimate magazine based out of Ireland; it was short lived, only having lasted a little less that a year. I remember as I recall purchasing a few copies of this particular magazine; it's production run lasted less than a year. That artists conception is probably legit; there were similar drawings published in other magazines and books.