Dutch Fokker bomber and fighter projects from the late 30ties

[Apophenia]

Maveric listed Ontwerp 119 as a 1934 fighter project and Nederlandse Luchtvaart mentions a Hispano Suiza Xbrs engine. The Hispano Suiza Xbrs was a Kestrel alternative for the D.XIX. Could that be Ontwerp 119?
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1935/1935%20-%200188.PDF

BTW, I note that a proposed license-produced Kestrel-powered D.XIX by Airspeed was designated AS.19. Probably just coincidence ...
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1951/1951%20-%200354.html

 

[hesham]

Good notice my dear Apophenia,


and we also will wait the search from my dear Lark.

 

[lark]

A bit additional info about Ontwerp 119.
Apparently in connection with the D.XIX and 112 , ontwerp 119 was projected later in 1934.
No drawing is known and information is scarce,mainly concisting of climb data.
It must have been a monoplane and with Hispano Ybrs engine, an attractive model.
* F.Gerdessen in : Interwar Projects.
Fokker 'Paper' Fighters.
AE.No.95 Sept-Oct. 2001

P.S. Ontwerp 112 was a low wing monoplane with liquid cooled engine-part of the D.21 development line.

 

[hesham]

Excellent my dear Lark,


and many thanks,and I knew Ontwerp 112,but I hadn't no details.

 

[hesham]

From Air International 11/1986,


here is the Fokker T.V early concepts,plus T.VA and production aircraft drawings.

 

[hesham]

Early artist drawing to Fokker G.1.

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L'ALA%20D'ITALIA%201936%20012.pdf

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the G.3 was developed from G.2 as I know,was that right ?.

 

[lark]

The G.3 project was not a direct development of the G.1.
(initial) ontwerp 129)

Ontwerp 186 to revised jachtkruiser spec. April 1939
became the G.3 on June 7 1939.

It was a twin engined design , with a single twin finned tail.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Lark,

it was a heavy fighter Project.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

during 1930s,a Dutch Air Force announced for a competition to develop a three-seat
recce/bomber airplane,the Fokker responded by Ontwerp 126,no other tenders were
known ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 125 was a recce flying boat Project of 1935,powered by two
815 hp Gone-Rhone 14K engines.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 146 was a three engined recce flying boat Project of 1937,no
more details are known ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 149 was a trainer and light bomber Project of 1937,powered by two
engines.

 

[hesham]

In my files;

the Fokker B.VI was a passenger transport amphibian Project of 1929.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 171 was a passenger transport/medium bomber monoplane
Project of 1939.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Fokker Ontwerp 185 was a fighter-bomber Project of 1939,no more details
are known.

 

[hesham]

From advertisement about the book; Fokker G-1 jachtkruiser – Deel 1

here is a three Fokker Projects,Ontwerp 129,184 & 187.

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2011/08/29/fokker-g-1-jachtkruiser-deel-1/

 

[hesham]

The Fokker Ontwerp 115.

http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/showthread.php?40374-Fokker-Ontwerp-115

 

[hesham]

What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?

Hi,

who can ID this ?;

http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/showthread.php?40376-Welk-toestel-is-dit

 

[Maveric]

Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?

een tweemotorige Fokker luchtkruiser

 

[Schneiderman]

Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?

The source for the drawing is here (Dutch Ministry of Defence)

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/beeldbank/indeling/detail/start/26?q_searchfield=fokker+tekening

It doesn't tell us much more other than it is dated 1939

Plenty more images on that site too, you can download them for ~€10

 

[Michel Van]

Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?

een tweemotorige Fokker luchtkruiser

Twin engine Fokker aircruiser, sound like heavy Battle aircraft to me.

 

[Arjen]

As the original poster on nederlandseluchtvaart wrote - it looks like two T.9 fuselages with a push-pull pod in the joining section. Not much else to say for now.

 

[Hobbes]

Could be an April Fools joke. With two T.9 fuselages and only 2 piston engines, it looks very underpowered. Couple that with the atypical swept wing...

 

[Arjen]

The original T.9 flew on two Bristol Hercules engines. The only engines of the period (1939-1940) I can think of that could provide marginally enough power would be the He 119's DB 606 or the RR Vulture. I agree the swept wing looks very fishy - although that might be connected with such a heavy 2000 hp+ pusher engine that far back.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dears.

 

[hesham]

Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?

Hi,

who can ID this ?;

http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/showthread.php?40376-Welk-toestel-is-dit

We can say, maybe it was Ontwerp 184 or 185 ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Maybe, but what we really need is for someone to buy a download copy and read the title box. Not me though, I'm still working my way through British projects.

 

[ACResearcher]

Arjen, FYI the R-2600 engine which powered the Boeing 314 and a number of other aircraft produced 1600hp in its original configuration, and got up to 1700hp in some of its later variants, so it was at least the equivalent of the Hercules and was in use earlier.

AlanG

 

[lark]

A bit more info.

"Luchtkruiser" design study only.
Fokker drawing 47992 May 1939

Few information is available since the ' Luchtkruiser' concept was already outdated in 1939.
Ontwerp number (design number) is not known but could be (NOT sure) 185.
Only one original drawing remains.

Some details.

construction : all metal.
weight : 10 tons
max. speed : 450 km/h
engines : RR 'Merlins' , Junkers Jumo or Daimer-Benz. No type numbers known.
all engines of at least 1100 Hp.
armament : two guns of unspecified type in the 2 noses
4 Mg's in the tailbooms.
bombload max. 2000kg
crew : 2 pilots & 6 gunners also acting as observer , radioman etc.
development time 2 a 3 years

What ever the reason for this design was is not known since it was to expensive
to construct and at the time already obsolete.

Translated and abridged from : 'Een Opmerkelijk Ontwerp' - (A Remacable Design)
By Frits Gerdessen in the Dutch magazine " Luchtvaart " - (Aviation) of May 1998 - page 47.

 

[sienar]

Could if have been a coupled engine arrangement? The prop diameter seems awfully large.

 

[hesham]

Amazing work my dear Lark.

 

[Arjen]

@ACresearcher: I'm better acquainted with European engines of the period, but I was aware that some US engines of comparable power were available. Thank you for providing an example.
@sienar: coupled engines such as the DB606, which is essentially two DB601s bolted together. Coupled Merlins seems to have been one of Fokker's options, given Gerdessen's text.

My point was there were engines with enough power available, but two Hercules engines would not have been sufficient.

 

[lark]

ir

Cruiser study project 1939.
More info.

Span: 72ft.0 in.(22m))
Length: 54ft.6 in.(16,60m)
height: 12ft.9in.(3,90m)

Based on this dimensions , one could possible calculate the prop diam.
No info about coupled or double engines.

Source : Air Enthusiast No.95 p.44

Besides , the 'Ontwerp' number is certainly not '185' since this was a Fokker G.1 version with a
gun position on the back of the fuselage. Perhaps a turret.
Project was planned for use in the ,then, Dutch East Indies.

Source : Luchtvaartkennis (Aviation Kwowledge) Dutch Branch of Air Britain. Year 57 issue 2/2008 p.72

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Lark,

but there was still Ontwerp 184 ?.

 

[sienar]

Re: ir

Cruiser study project 1939.
More info.

Span: 72ft.0 in.(22m))
Length: 54ft.6 in.(16,60m)
height: 12ft.9in.(3,90m)

Based on this dimensions , one could possible calculate the prop diam.
No info about coupled or double engines.

Source : Air Enthusiast No.95 p.44

Besides , the 'Ontwerp' number is certainly not '185' since this was a Fokker G.1 version with a
gun position on the back of the fuselage. Perhaps a turret.
Project was planned for use in the ,then, Dutch East Indies.

Source : Luchtvaartkennis (Aviation Kwowledge) Dutch Branch of Air Britain. Year 57 issue 2/2008 p.72

Works out to around 11.5ft, so a bit larger than the contemporary 3-bladded props on the spitfire and 109, but also about two feet shorter than the props on the He-177.

 

[lark]

Thanks Sienar,

Hesham,

The Fokker 'Ontwerp' 184 was an other fighter cruiser study for the
Dutch East Indies AirForce.

It used the gun nose and the wing planform of the G.1 ,but instead of wood, it was
of all metal construction.

Not a a twinboom , it was a single fuselage concept with a
twin fin tail.
Two flexible gun positions on the back and below , behind the long cockpit.

 

[hesham]

OK my dear Lark.

 

[Arjen]

Re: What was this Twin-Boom Fokker Project ?

Hi,

who can ID this ?;

http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/showthread.php?40376-Welk-toestel-is-dit

I downloaded the full-size image from NIMH for personal use.
https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/beeldbank/indeling/detail/start/26?q_searchfield=fokker+tekening
Unfortunately, no 'Ontwerpnummer' because that's where the image is cropped. Title box probably names this as 'Studie-ontwerp', forum-member LVA-40 on nederlandseluchtvaart.nl writes this design did not reach 'Ontwerp-nummer'-stage.
Image redrawn in Inkscape, then exported as JPG.
<edit> added some of the panel(?) lines

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Arjen,maybe it was just drawing number only.