Dutch 2023 Frigate project

[MihoshiK]

Anyone who thinks the Dutch are going with anything but the missile system families they already have in their inventory, and parts of which will be used (ESSM) for the new ASW frigates, and parts of which can also go into the new air defense ships (ESSM, SM series) is smoking the kind of stuff you can buy in an Amsterdam coffee shop.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

Anyone who thinks the Dutch are going with anything but the missile system families they already have in their inventory, and parts of which will be used (ESSM) for the new ASW frigates, and parts of which can also go into the new air defense ships (ESSM, SM series) is smoking the kind of stuff you can buy in an Amsterdam coffee shop.

Of course they stay within the current ESSM/SM-family missile's but it is a good idea to look what other options are on the market. Also when you enter negotiations with Raytheon you know what the other systems price range is. And maybe more important all other options have to be adapted for use in the Mk41 VLS, this will bring additional risks and budget into the project.

ESSM Block II is 100% confirmed for ASWF and both current and future LCF (FUAD). Both classes will use APAR block II & SM-400 Block II radars. The new LCF or FUAD will also receive SMART-L for the long range detection.

SMART-L MM/N | 3-D D-band Long Range multimission radar | 2000 km BMD, 480 km Air & 60 km surface targets
SM-400 Block II | 4-D S-band multifuction radar | >400 km Air & 80 km surface targets
APAR Block II | X-band multifunction radar | >150 km

In the missile overview we see 4 layers of defense:
- Short Range -> ESSM Block II & RAM Block II
- Medium Range -> SM-2 Block IIIB
- Long Range -> SM-2 Block IV
- Ballistic + Hypersonic -> SM- Block IA

 

[kqcke for you]

In the missile overview we see 4 layers of defense:
- Short Range -> ESSM Block II & RAM Block II
- Medium Range -> SM-2 Block IIIB
- Long Range -> SM-2 Block IV

*SM-6 as there no production for SM-2 Block IV

- Ballistic + Hypersonic -> SM- Block IA

Do you mean SM-3? Or SM-6? Both can / could if given missile enters there reach.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

*SM-6 as there no production for SM-2 Block IV

Do you mean SM-3? Or SM-6? Both can / could if given missile enters there reach.

It will be a longer range SM-2 , the BMD will be done by SM-6.
The Dutch navy recently announced it will not use SM-3 but an other missile capable of lower BMD. The new missiles will be able to destroy the ballistic missile within the earth atmosphere instead of very high altitude of the SM-3.

 

[TomS]

It will be a longer range SM-2 , the BMD will be done by SM-6.
The Dutch navy recently announced it will not use SM-3 but an other missile capable of lower BMD. The new missiles will be able to destroy the ballistic missile within the earth atmosphere instead of very high altitude of the SM-3.

There is no "longer range SM-2" in production. Block IV/IVA production ended ages ago (at least 10, possibly 20 years) and current SM-2 production is entirely the short MR configuration. So if you want extended-range air defense from Standard, it's SM-6 or nothing.

 

[kqcke for you]

There is no "longer range SM-2" in production. Block IV/IVA production ended ages ago (at least 10, possibly 20 years) and current SM-2 production is entirely the short MR configuration. So if you want extended-range air defense from Standard, it's SM-6 or nothing.

SM-6 ist just an extended SM-2 Block IIIC.
We know that for SM-2 there is a new Version called Block IIICU which may even will include new the MK.104 rocket motor in development but even that won't be near SM-2 Block IV/ SM-6

 

[TomS]

SM-6 ist just an extended SM-2 Block IIIC.
We know that for SM-2 there is a new Version called Block IIICU which may even will include new the MK.104 rocket motor in development but even that won't be near SM-2 Block IV/ SM-6

You've got the relationship backwards. Block IIIC is effectively SM-6 minus the booster. SM-6 came first by a long way.

As for Block IIICU, the FY23 DOT&E report says that it is IIIC with a modified Guidance Section Electronics Unit to address obsolescence issues. (The same GS EU is being applied to SM-6 Block IA, converting it to Block IAU) No mention of a new Mk 104 motor.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2023/navy/2023sm-2.pdf?ver=d4DHQ7UhR5MJ0NdK7kCXnQ%3D%3D

The contract announcements for new Mk 104 motor designs seems aimed mainly at qualifying new ways of manufacturing something equivalent to the existing motor (e.g. Ursa Major, X-Bow Systems, and Aerojet Rocketdyne all doing additive manufacturing for energetics).

 

[kqcke for you]

You've got the relationship backwards. Block IIIC is effectively SM-6 minus the booster. SM-6 came first by a long way.

I looked at it from the SM-2 but your right.

As for Block IIICU, the FY23 DOT&E report says that it is IIIC with a modified Guidance Section Electronics Unit to address obsolescence issues. (The same GS EU is being applied to SM-6 Block IA, converting it to Block IAU) No mention of a new Mk 104 motor.

Yes but one can Hope that there fas enough for it.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2023/navy/2023sm-2.pdf?ver=d4DHQ7UhR5MJ0NdK7kCXnQ%3D%3D

The contract announcements for new Mk 104 motor designs seems aimed mainly at qualifying new ways of manufacturing something equivalent to the existing motor (e.g. Ursa Major, X-Bow Systems, and Aerojet Rocketdyne all doing additive manufacturing for energetics).

I have to look into that again but if i remember it right an improvement would be achieved.

 

[Dutchnavyfan]

More Dutch news! The RNLN has released first impressions of the concepts for the Future Air Defender (FUAD) and LPX (ATS).

The ATS got me hyped

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

The ATS got me hyped

It has me hyped to but with some caution. We know this is only a very early concept and that the full deck design is only a option for now. The full deck option is the best option if you want to be able to focus on UAV's in the future.

I zoomed in on the bow area and we see 2 MQ-8B Fire Scout type UAV's , a 76 mm Sovraponte & 40 mm cannon. Just behind the 2nd UAV we see a RHIB in Davit. On the aft deck we see 2 NH-90's and on the superstructure you can see a RAM CIWS and NS-100 radar. For amphibious raidings we see at least 1 LCVP/LCA on each side in davits and a dock door at the stern.

All of this will also fit in a standard LPD type ship but limits the number of flight movements. Damen's recent Enforcer LPD series has a added UAV flight deck that could work around that problem but the full deck gives more flexibility.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

The website Navalnews.com interviewed Captain André van der Kamp from the Dutch COMMIT at Combined Naval Event (CNE) 2024.

In the video there are multiple screenshots of concepts from the RNLN and her future fleet. The FUAD / vLCF ship is rumored to have 80 VLS cells.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

Project update: The RLNL will order 2 additional ASWF's and additional NH-90 helicopters. The number of helicopters has not been confirmed yet, rumors are 3 to 6 new NH-90 NFH. It was also officially announced that 2 low-manned vessels will be build for underwater protection of the North Sea that can also be fitted with missile modules to enhance a frigate's load out.

No further information on the FUAD or ATS/LPX projects.

A 3rd Belgian ASWF is rumored to be planned by the Belgian navy.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Regarding possible use by the new design of an ATT (Anti-torpedo Torpedo) hard-kill countermeasure system based on the Atlas Elektronik SeaSpider:

European navies chase the white whale of torpedo-busting torpedoes

Germany and the Netherlands are banking on a European Union project to field a workable defensive system for surface ships by 2030.

www.defensenews.com

In the end, the timing of a European anti-torpedo torpedo program could line up with Dutch Navy plans for new anti-submarine warfare frigates, the first of which is expected to become operational in 2029. That is because German officials expect the PESCO program to yield a production-ready system that passes all regulatory requirements by the end of the decade, with a prototype built in 2028.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Self-defence missiles only is historically the definition of an FFG. The ones with area defence capability are mostly DDG's in sheep's clothing for navies where buying something 'larger' than a frigate might be a problem politically, eg Germany, or where there are local idiosyncracies around class naming - cf France with its talk of '1st rank frigates' and 'intermediate frigates' and where the Horizons are frigates in French use, yet DDGs in Italian use.

That’s not even remotely true, mostly because there’s hasn’t been an internationally recognized or accepted definition of what a frigate is…but just as an example OHPs carried SM-2s just like destroyers and cruisers and those were the longest range SAMs available in the fleet at the time.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Nations using VL Asroc (or local equivalent) for ASW: US, Japan, Korea. Everyone else decided if you have a helicopter you don't need anything else a generation ago. Italy's a slight anomaly with MILAS, but that's on a grand total of 6 ships, 2 of those 30 year old AAW DDGs and due for replacement.

So…russia…and how well is their navy actually doing in combat?