Dutch 2023 Frigate project

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?232114-Dutch-Navy-unveils-M-frigate-replacement




Photos added from the link above

 

[thebig C]

You can see Dutch Frigate design heritage in the Hull form all right.

Funnily enough, they look slightly similar to a fantasy design I've seen online (poss shipbucket), which resemble a De Zeven Provincen Class Frigate with a lengthened bow.

C

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

The final design has been released.

Length: 145 m
Beam: 17 m
Displacement: 6400 t
Crew: 117 + 35 mission crew

Weapons
- 76 mm Sovraponte
- 2x 40 mm Marlin WS
- multiple 12,7 mm RCWS's
- 16 cells Mk41 Strike lenght VLS (ESSM only for now)
- 2x 4 Naval Strike Missile
- RAM CIWS
- Mk54 LWT's
- Hardkill anti-torpedo system (planned for future)
- High Energy Laser CIWS (planned for future)

Sensors (by Thales)
- SM400 block 2 S-band radar
- APAR block 2 X-band radar
- Pharos tracking radar for 76 mm DART munitions
- Under Water Warfare Suite (UWWS)
- Above Water Warfare Suite (AWWS)
- Unknown bow sonar
- VDS
- Softkill torpedo decoy

Additional info
- Multi Mission Bay for at least 2 FRISC interceptors or 12 m ASW USV's
- Cargo space for 5 containers with mission modules / equipment
- NH90 ASW helicopter + UAV's.

Two frigates will be build for the Netherlands Navy (2029 & 2031) + 2 for the Belgian navy. The Dutch ships will be #1 & #3 in the series.

 

[Cordy]

Above Water Warfare System

Dutch DMO/Thales saying primarily ASW frigates also capable to independently defend themselves and nearby ships against air and surface threats that are growing exponentially, so they will be equipped with a new gen AWWS fire control system, to defend against precision-guided munitions, ballistic missiles, cyber, and swarms among above-water warfare threats and hypersonic missiles at the speed of 2,500 m/sec - Mach 7.3.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHq_hFaVDsk&ab_channel=NavalNews


PS Reported ASWF estimated cost 1 billion Euros/ $1.1 billion each very similar to the Constellation FY2024 budget cost of $1.087 million each

 

[Manuducati]

Belgian part in this program.

View: https://youtu.be/tkgh1mckpG4

 

[TomS]

16 cells Mk41 Strike lenght VLS (ESSM only for now)

The Netherlands gov has announced the intention to buy Tomahawk. Initially for LCF but possibly for these ships in the future. Though 16 cells is pretty thin for ESSM and more than a token number of Tomahawk.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

16 cells Mk41 Strike lenght VLS (ESSM only for now)

The Netherlands gov has announced the intention to buy Tomahawk. Initially for LCF but possibly for these ships in the future. Though 16 cells is pretty thin for ESSM and more than a token number of Tomahawk.

I have some hope for additional space for extra mk41 VLS (up to 32 VLS cells), but this has not been confirmed yet. I know a older design (pre-2021) had space in between the VLS and superstructure for additional VLS cells. I tried to Photoshop extra VLS cells into the design and by the looks of it it will fit. Off course without knowledge about the below deck areas.



We can only hope for more information soon with the options open to fit more VLS cells in the (near) future. With a 32 cells VLS the ships would be very capable ASW ships optionally to be loaded with a combination of ESSM, Tomahawk , SM-3 (planned for Dutch LCF) and/or VL-ASROC.

It is known that the Belgian navy has had requirements for the ASWF to be fitted with ABM capacity most likely SM-3 or SM-6 as a shooter only. Radar and target information would be send from other US / Dutch or NATO ships. The RNLN will replace its 4 Air Defence Frigates in the near future these ships will be called Above Water Warfare Frigates (AWWF's) & both LPD's will be replaced together with the 4 OPV's by a new series of (6 ?) ships called Landing Platform Carriers (LPX).

For the AWWF program a MOU was signed with the German Navy, but recently it was announced that the Germans prefer the AEGIS combat system of the USN over the Thales systems. Something the Dutch will never accept on there ships. So the ASWF might be the mother design for the AWWF. For the LPX program not much information has been given at this point. The LPX will be smaller then the current LPD's and be capable of delivering amphibious landing, humanitarian aid & tasks currently filled by the Holland class OPV's.

With the current Northern Naval Shipbuilding Cooperation i see posibilities for the Dutch and Danish navies to develop a series of ships to replace the De Zeven Provincien (LCF), Rotterdam, Johan de Witt ( LPD's) & Holland class (OPV's) and on Danish side Iver Huitfeldt & Absalon classes by one common hull family of ships. A small chance for Norway is also in this family of ships to replace the 5 Nansen class frigates. The danish Absalon & Huitfeldt class could serve as parent design.

I would prefer a AWSF & AWWF family of design with a split between the LPD replacement and OPV replacement by two diffrent classes of ships. 2 LPD's replaced by 4 LPX (Absalon style) & 4 additional ASWF/AAWF familiy vessels for low intensity warfare with alot of options FFBNW.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

More information about a new concept by the RNLN was posted by Navalnews.com. The low-manned vessels are planned to serve alongside of the (future) AWWF / FuAD or current LC-frigates. They are planned as low cost increase of naval firepower for the RNLN.

At this point its only a concept beeing looked into, but due to the civil based vessel they can move fast into construction. The base looks to be a Damen Fast Crew Supplier 5009 Patrol. With only 8 crew members + space for 16 additional persons they are very low manned vessels. The base ship has a max speed of 27 knots & 3,100 nautical miles (5741 km / 3567 miles) range at 27 knots.

RNLN Looks At Low-Manned Platform To Augment Frigate Fire Power​

The Royal Netherlands Navy (RNLN) is exploring the case for acquiring low-cost, low-manned vessels that could quickly and cost effectively increase the combat power available to its surface fleet.​

Known as TRIFIC (The Rapidly Increased Firepower Capability), the concept is now being studied in detail by the Netherlands Materiel and IT Command (COMMIT, formerly known as DMO) ahead of a procurement decision.

RNLN looks at low-manned platform to augment frigate fire power - Naval News

The Royal Netherlands Navy (RNLN) is exploring the case for acquiring TRIFIC low-cost, low-manned vessels to complement the frigates

www.navalnews.com

 

[johnpjones1775]

6400 tons and only 16 VLS? Why?
Like I’m loving that it seems to be covered in guns, but even my dumb caveman GM brains knows that you could get 75% of the capability out of a ship 2/3 the size

 

[berman332]

The Netherlands gov has announced the intention to buy Tomahawk. Initially for LCF but possibly for these ships in the future. Though 16 cells is pretty thin for ESSM and more than a token number of Tomahawk.

Probably going to add more cells to the design for the Tomahawk missiles. The Royal Navy Type 26 frigate has the same issue. They are adding additional MK 41 VLS for the same purpose for the latter ships of this class since I believe at least the first two ships on the class are almost completely.

 

[TomS]

Probably going to add more cells to the design for the Tomahawk missiles. The Royal Navy Type 26 frigate has the same issue. They are adding additional MK 41 VLS for the same purpose for the latter ships of this class since I believe at least the first two ships on the class are almost completely.

My understanding is that all of the Type 26s are getting 24 Mk 41 cells. The only suggestion I've seen of more cells is the Hunter Batch II proposal for Australia.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

Probably going to add more cells to the design for the Tomahawk missiles. The Royal Navy Type 26 frigate has the same issue. They are adding additional MK 41 VLS for the same purpose for the latter ships of this class since I believe at least the first two ships on the class are almost completely.

At this point the ASWF’s will only be fitted with 16 cells mk41 VLs strike length. Im not sure if the design allows more cells.

The RNLN only planning to fit the current Zeven Provincien class frigates and walrus class submarines with tomahawks. For both vessel types replacements are planned, they will also carry tomahawk missiles.

I rather see the ASWF’s to be fitted with 32 ESSM (8 cells) & 8 VL-ASROC ASW missiles to support the asw role.

 

[kqcke for you]

ASWF has big chances for Norway`s frigate Programm just like F126 of 6-7 units ist wanted

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

ASWF has big chances for Norway`s frigate Programm just like F126 of 6-7 units ist wanted

Yes, and this is not the first time that the Norwegians were rumored to be interested in the ASWF's. 1 or 2 years ago there was a rumor in the Dutch naval community that a 3rd nation was interested to join the ASWF project. It was rumored that it was Norway, no official information has been released so far.

There has been some info released yesterday about the TRIFIC project. The RNLN renamed the project to MICAN and the plan is to purchase 2 ships for testing the concept. They will be able to sail with a small crew within control of the LCF frigates and/or its replacements (FUAD/AWWF), as a 2nd role they will be used for the protection of underwater infrastructures on the North sea.

The MICAN will be equipped with a mission module type setup with either Air Defense role or Underwater warfare role. In the Air Defense role they will be equipped with a number of surface to air missiles. The fire control is provided by the LCF/FUAD.

The following list was presented yesterday to the house of representatives by the State Secretary of Defense.

The table below shows the numbers of larger naval vessels that Defense will acquire over the next fifteen years. This concerns a total of 28 larger surface vessels and four submarines. The role of the Dutch industry in the construction of these ships is explained below. The replacement of the submarines follows its own path. The role of Dutch industry is limited in the acquisition of the six mine countermeasures vessels, which is being carried out under Belgian leadership.



- 4x Luchtverdedigings- en Commandofregatten (LC-fregatten) => Future Air Defender (FUAD) / Above Water Warfare Frigate (AWWF).
- 6x Amfibische vaartuigen (LPX) => Replacement for the two LPD's + 4 Holland class OPV's.
- 8x Hulpvaartuigen => Support ships in 3 models (2x hydrographic survey + Torpedo recovery, 2x Caribbean Support + Training vessel, - 4x smaller dive support vessels).
- 2x Schepen bescherming Noordzee en ondersteuning LC-fregatten => MICAN / TRIFIC.
- 4x Onderzeeboten => Submarines replacing the current Walrus class.
- 2x Anti Submarine Warfare-fregatten (ASWF , replacing the M-frigate.
- 6x Mijnbestrijdingsvaartuigen => Mine Counter Measure Vessels , replacing Alkmaar class.

 

[swerve]

6400 tons and only 16 VLS? Why?
Like I’m loving that it seems to be covered in guns, but even my dumb caveman GM brains knows that you could get 75% of the capability out of a ship 2/3 the size

Guns & RAM. so shouldn't need to expend lots of high-value missiles from the VLS on little drones, & you can get quite a lot of ESSM in 16 Mk 41 cells.

 

[MihoshiK]

At this point the ASWF’s will only be fitted with 16 cells mk41 VLs strike length. Im not sure if the design allows more cells.

The RNLN only planning to fit the current Zeven Provincien class frigates and walrus class submarines with tomahawks. For both vessel types replacements are planned, they will also carry tomahawk missiles.

I rather see the ASWF’s to be fitted with 32 ESSM (8 cells) & 8 VL-ASROC ASW missiles to support the asw role.

TBH I hear a lot of people about VL-ASROC for ASWF, but our navy has never carried the missile in any kind of configuration, allways relying on helicopter ops to deliver torpedoes.
Don't be surprised if that continues, and the VLS is solely for ESSM.

 

[kqcke for you]

I mean its the best way to do it

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

TBH I hear a lot of people about VL-ASROC for ASWF, but our navy has never carried the missile in any kind of configuration, allways relying on helicopter ops to deliver torpedoes.
Don't be surprised if that continues, and the VLS is solely for ESSM.

I know it has never been introduced but so has the tomahawk until now.
The most i have seen is ESSM & SM-2 options for the ASWF's, but the VLS is strike length so all options are open. With the introduction of a new model of ASW frigates there might be a chance for the introduction of VL-ASROC combined with the NH-90 / UAV / USV ASW assets.

If the ASWF is deployed with 1 NH-90, 2 (Skeldar V-200) UAV's & 2 unmanned surface vessels the ship has a decent amount of long range sensors to deploy a ASW barrier. With the NH-90 and USV's a maximum of 4 to 6 LWT's are ready to fire, because both the helicopter and USV work on a long distance from the frigate it would be very useful to have 6 or 8 ASROC's as a backup plan before the sub gets close enough to launch torpedoes from the ship.

The Skeldar UAV's are not armed and not capable of carrying a torpedo. Most likely to be used in a set of two, 1 with sonobuoys and the 2nd UAV as comms relay.

And as far as i know the VL-ASROC is not planned at this point, i do think it is a great niche asset to add to our ASWF's. The USN also just uses 6 VL-ASROC on their destroyers, so even with only 6 missiles fitted we still have 40 ESSM's + 21 RAM missiles & 76 mm DART + 2x 40 mm cannons to counter air targets.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Guns & RAM. so shouldn't need to expend lots of high-value missiles from the VLS on little drones, & you can get quite a lot of ESSM in 16 Mk 41 cells.

ESSM are great for self defense but falls short of capabilities for what most navies use their FFGs for in the 21st century and 16 VLS is the domain of modern corvettes, rather than FFGs.

 

[kqcke for you]

ESSM are great for self defense but falls short of capabilities for what most navies use their FFGs for in the 21st century and 16 VLS is the domain of modern corvettes, rather than FFGs.

Then please give me a Corvette that has 2 MK.41 VLS moduls with ESSM. Now Doha class has 16 Sylver a50 but thats just like Pohjanmaa-class a giant with over 3000t each. And atleast until now Pohjanmaa only got 1 MK.41 VLS.

 

[kqcke for you]

And its not like the netherland do that alone. F-126, F-110 and the FDI all have only 16 cells of VLS.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Remember that this is an M-Frigate replacement, a vessel limited to 16 RIM-7s, rather less than 64 ESSMs. This is not going to be the RNLN's primary air-defence combatant, they have the De Zeven Provinciën-class and later Future Air Defender to fulfill that role. Now admittedly once you've paid for the SM400 Block 2 and APAR Block 2 Arrays, I don't understand why you can't build a bigger ship with more magazine depth, the combat system is the vast majority of the cost of the ship, extra steel is hardly going to break the bank. You don't even have to fill all the tubes in peacetime.

EDIT: I've just noticed the discage antenna on the aft superstructure in the render. Excellent, love the early 1960s vibes, 10/10.

 

[kqcke for you]

Same for f-123. Now with the MLU for it the f-123(b) can take ESSM.

 

[MihoshiK]

I'd like to point out that in these times of rapidly expanding drone and cheap(ish) missile proliferation, 64 ESSM (or 32 and 8 SM-whatever) is just about what the doctor ordered just for self-defense.
Please do not forget that these are subhunters first and foremost, and that the Dutch navy has a much smaller budget than the USN, and that munitions aren't cheap either.

Also, steel is cheap and air is free is the kind of remark that disregards that you still have to MAN the steel.

Tell me, how are the enlistment numbers across the board?

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Also, steel is cheap and air is free is the kind of remark that disregards that you still have to MAN the steel.

Tell me, how are the enlistment numbers across the board?

If you have the same combat system, machinery, armament (aside from a couple of extra Mk 41 blocks), the extra steel shouldn't require anymore personnel surely?

 

[kqcke for you]

If you have the same combat system, machinery, armament (aside from a couple of extra Mk 41 blocks), the extra steel shouldn't require anymore personnel surely?

But you need more fuel and power to get that extra steel going with the same parameters and reserve. Thats why germany would waste a lot with Arleigh Burkes (without a change in defense policy) as those extra VLS cells are dead space. They can't even fill all existing so how the fuck should they fill those Arleigh Burke as replacement for f-124 (as example). The whole f-124 fleet has as mutch MK.41 as 1 Arleigh Burke.

 

[kqcke for you]

Something like CAMM-MR or Dualpack PAC-3 MSE, SM-2 or PAAC-4 (David sling) would be nice for those european navys.

 

[TomS]

But you need more fuel and power to get that extra steel going with the same parameters and reserve.

Adding steel can reduce or at least hold even on powering requirements, especially if you use it to add waterline length rather than draft.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Then please give me a Corvette that has 2 MK.41 VLS moduls with ESSM. Now Doha class has 16 Sylver a50 but thats just like Pohjanmaa-class a giant with over 3000t each. And atleast until now Pohjanmaa only got 1 MK.41 VLS.

Not mk41 w/ ESSM but

Victory-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

16 VLS carrying a rough ESSM equivalent

32 VLS for barak and 40 VLS for sea dome

Sa'ar 6-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

16 VLS with missiles similar to ESSM or better

Bung Tomo-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

16 VLS for aster 30

Al Zubarah-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

When you look at the Dutch fleet it’s not exactly flush with VLS, so it makes no sense their new FFG would have so few VLS.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Remember that this is an M-Frigate replacement, a vessel limited to 16 RIM-7s, rather less than 64 ESSMs. This is not going to be the RNLN's primary air-defence combatant, they have the De Zeven Provinciën-class and later Future Air Defender to fulfill that role. Now admittedly once you've paid for the SM400 Block 2 and APAR Block 2 Arrays, I don't understand why you can't build a bigger ship with more magazine depth, the combat system is the vast majority of the cost of the ship, extra steel is hardly going to break the bank. You don't even have to fill all the tubes in peacetime.

EDIT: I've just noticed the discage antenna on the aft superstructure in the render. Excellent, love the early 1960s vibes, 10/10.

The Dutch navy has 4 ships as ‘air defense’ ships, that’s way too few, realistically they’ll only ever have 2 actually quickly deployable at a time, with 1 in maintenance and 1 in training cycles.

 

[johnpjones1775]

I'd like to point out that in these times of rapidly expanding drone and cheap(ish) missile proliferation, 64 ESSM (or 32 and 8 SM-whatever) is just about what the doctor ordered just for self-defense.
Please do not forget that these are subhunters first and foremost, and that the Dutch navy has a much smaller budget than the USN, and that munitions aren't cheap either.

Also, steel is cheap and air is free is the kind of remark that disregards that you still have to MAN the steel.

Tell me, how are the enlistment numbers across the board?

If they’re primarily sub hunters then they’d need VLS for ASROC, which means much fewer ESSM for self defense.

 

[Yellow Palace]

Adding steel can reduce or at least hold even on powering requirements, especially if you use it to add waterline length rather than draft.

Adding bunker capacity when you do it is pretty cheap, too. Maybe even free, depending on how you add the length. Very few Chief Engineers will complain about having too much fuel; unlike with aircraft, it's not necessarily even that big of a deal when you're on fire!

 

[kqcke for you]

If they’re primarily sub hunters then they’d need VLS for ASROC, which means much fewer ESSM for self defense.

They don't need that. They got the best ASW weapon ships like that ever had. A Helicopter. Which is why those ships don't have torpedo tubes or VL-ASROC.

 

[kqcke for you]

Not mk41 w/ ESSM but

Yes so they don't have the same capabilitys

Victory-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

16 VLS carrying a rough ESSM equivalent

Not even close.

32 VLS for barak and 40 VLS for sea dome

Sa'ar 6-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Maybe i have some doubts about it having really 32 Barak but even then its the only other ship.

16 VLS with missiles similar to ESSM or better

Bung Tomo-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yeah but those don't even give the same capabilitys as those ships have.

16 VLS for aster 30

Al Zubarah-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Doha class

When you look at the Dutch fleet it’s not exactly flush with VLS, so it makes no sense their new FFG would have so few VLS.

Don't need more when you don't plan for more.....

 

[MihoshiK]

They don't need that. They got the best ASW weapon ships like that ever had. A Helicopter. Which is why those ships don't have torpedo tubes or VL-ASROC.

Oh, just like all current ships they'll absolutely have torpdeo tubes, but in the render they're behind doors, because who the hell still designs his ships with the tubes on-deck? That's absolute murder on stealth...

 

[kqcke for you]

Oh, just like all current ships they'll absolutely have torpdeo tubes, but in the render they're behind doors, because who the hell still designs his ships with the tubes on-deck? That's absolute murder on stealth...

My mistake i overlooked that.

 

[DWG]

ESSM are great for self defense but falls short of capabilities for what most navies use their FFGs for in the 21st century

Self-defence missiles only is historically the definition of an FFG. The ones with area defence capability are mostly DDG's in sheep's clothing for navies where buying something 'larger' than a frigate might be a problem politically, eg Germany, or where there are local idiosyncracies around class naming - cf France with its talk of '1st rank frigates' and 'intermediate frigates' and where the Horizons are frigates in French use, yet DDGs in Italian use.

 

[DWG]

If they’re primarily sub hunters then they’d need VLS for ASROC

Nations using VL Asroc (or local equivalent) for ASW: US, Japan, Korea. Everyone else decided if you have a helicopter you don't need anything else a generation ago. Italy's a slight anomaly with MILAS, but that's on a grand total of 6 ships, 2 of those 30 year old AAW DDGs and due for replacement.

 

[DWG]

The Dutch navy has 4 ships as ‘air defense’ ships, that’s way too few,

You have checked the size of the Dutch Navy? That's 66% of their first line surface combatants.

 

[Mc spoilt b’stard]

Oh, just like all current ships they'll absolutely have torpdeo tubes, but in the render they're behind doors, because who the hell still designs his ships with the tubes on-deck? That's absolute murder on stealth...

Dont forget the (to be selected) hardkill & softkill system against incomming torpedoes.

And also additional to the NH-90 ASW helicopter there will also be a UAV system (V-200 Skeldar likely) & two 12 m USV's to support the ASW search and/or kill chain.

The replacement for the Zeven Provincien Class also known as FUAD/AWWF will be much larger (rumored 10.000 tons) and have much more VLS cells and also commanding the TRIFIC/MICAN M-USV's.